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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Criticisms of Empire (and another rant; Sorry!) (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Criticisms of Empire (and another rant; Sorry!)
Survivor
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Okay...but if there isn't some absolute truth in this world, then what is the point of getting so worked up over an assertion that you believe is incorrect?

You think that you're right and he's wrong, that's why you're arguing. Saying that there is something inherently wrong with his belief that the things he believes are the truth doesn't bear even the thinnest examination unless you can demonstrate that there is something objectively wrong with those beliefs themselves, not simply the fact that they are believed.

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Reshpeckobiggle
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Thanks Survivior. I don't care if you're not human. I think you're nice.
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Survivor
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I think you're nuts [Wink] Well, maybe you're using a definition of "nice" that has more to do with physical grace and perfection, but you wouldn't really be able to judge that from posts on the internet.

Or could you?

Besides, my body is designed more for practicality than aesthetics. I prefer to think of it as "rugged". Like my personality [Wink]

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jlt
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quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
Our values have been turned upside down.

Whose values? And why is their overturning a bad thing? And why are these values better than any others?
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jlt
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On abortion, yes, it's a moral as well as religious issue. At the moment I don't think that the government should intervene either way, to fund abortion clinics or prohibit it. This is for my own reasons and based off my own experience.

After a day spent at a conference concerning human trafficking and poverty though, I wonder why we're so concerned about the, maybe thousands of abortions that take places as opposed to the 10s of thousands of bona fide (no debate about whether or not their indivduals) humans, many infants and children, who die from hunger or conflict (or are enslaved or exploited).

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Reshpeckobiggle
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quote:
Originally posted by jlt:
quote:
Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
Our values have been turned upside down.

Whose values? And why is their overturning a bad thing? And why are these values better than any others?
Those are the real questions. It turns out that if you don't have the right answers, you get yelled at.

By the way, the number of abortions in America is estimated to be about 1.4 million per year. That's not to downplay the importance of human trafficking and hell, about twenty thousand other problems. Concerning abortion, I think the first step is to convince enough people that abortion actually is a problem in the first place. And not just the problem of "why are their so many unwanted pregancies?" More of the magnitude of "why is our government allowing babies to be killed without restriction?"

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Samprimary
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Watching resh and survivor bounce their personalities off of each other is like some sort of christmas gift.
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jlt
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The problem with abortion is that it is an issue largely tied to religious beliefs. If a person believes that life begin at conception than abortion seems like murder, but if a person believes that life begins when a person is born then abortion is not murder to them. When the government tries to make laws about abortion, then oftentimes religious beliefs are some part of the law and that means the government is imposing religious beliefs on the population which may or may not share them and violates the separation of church and state.

In countries where abortion is illegal, it happens anyway, but instead of going to a hospital women literally resort to coat hangers. If abortions were made illegal, it's very likely they would continue anyway.

In addition, people often say that people who abort shoul just carry the babies and put them up for adoption, but truly, you have to ask those people if they've adopted any children.

I also think people should realize that for most women the decision to have an abortion is not an easy one. Humans aren't wired to want to give up their children, and women do consider issues before having an abortion and it is rather unfair to make laws implying that women are incapable of making their own decisions. If it is against your beliefs to have an abortion, don't have one (also think that men really should be saying less on this issure considering they don't have wombs and they will never carry a child)

I myself am uncertain of my views on abortion, but I don't think that views I have should be forced upon others. I think the solution to preventing so many unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortion is better birth control and better education about how to use birth control, and for education about birth control to be taught at an earlier age.

In my high school, birth control isn't taught until 10th grade and by then many students, in reality, are already having sex. Some suggest trying to teach chastity, but honestly, lessons in abstinence tend to be a complete joke or preaching which just makes teenagers want to rebel more.

I still think that if people concerned about abortion put so much value on human life then they should focus on saving the lives of people who are already born who die all around the world everyday.

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Mazer
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While I don't think it is his worst book, it certainly has some problems. I like the theme, but it seriously falls apart in the realism category. The Mechs and Hoverbikes are unbelievable. The military stuff is obviously written by someone who has not served, and the idea that these guys are cruising around NYC with unregistered class III NFA weapons shows shows a naivety about legal issues concerning firearms or what precisely military folks can get away with. Having carried the SAW myself, I think it's pretty funny that Cole, (Who apparently has an "S" on his chest,) was running for miles with an M249 SAW, (That's the US nomenclature for it, BTW, Minimi is the Euro version.)

The pacing and logic leaps were unbelievably rapid, even for military geniuses. Oh and the part about Washington state courting the rebels simply kills me. Outside of Pugetropolis, this is a red state, and we tote guns. Even inside the sound area, there are scads of libertarians and people like me who are all over the map politically. And dear god, there are a ton of prior service folks up here. Washington is about as pro-military as San Diego, (Which with 14 bases is pretty pro-mil.) I suspect any leftist rebellion would draw the rooftop voters, posthaste. Oregon and Vermont are also both blue states that are not typically Democratic at all. They would not be the ones openly courting secession, I think. I think California would be the most likely candidate, as it has an economy thatcould support sucession, (Though it would be a tactical nightmare to try to defend from the FedGov.)

But aside from the numerous realism issues, the book is still good, and I agree with the basic cautionary tale about polarization, partisanship and cults of personality.

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Dagonee
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quote:
I still think that if people concerned about abortion put so much value on human life then they should focus on saving the lives of people who are already born who die all around the world everyday.
It's very nice of you to tell people who think something different than you how they should act. Would you tell someone who opposes the killing of children by frustrated parents that they should volunteer at a day care center rather than favor making such killings illegal?

You also seem to be assuming that it's not possible to care for those who are born while also working to grant legal protection to the unborn, as evidenced by the enormous amount of work done by pro-life people along those lines.

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Puppy
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Seriously. That "if you REALLY cared, you'd be devoting your energy elsewhere" thing is the most obnoxious argument EVER. It just brings with it such a huge presumption that one's opponents are hypocritical moral cretins.

Which is useful, I suppose ... it helps me identify irrational individuals who have lost the ability to put themselves in their opponents' shoes.

But still. Next person who uses it gets a pie in the face.

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Samprimary
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Puppy if you really cared you would devote your energy elswwwWWAAHH AAUGH I'M ALLERGIC TO RHUBARB
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Puppy
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HA HA HA! Mine is an EVIL laugh!
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rivka
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It's true.

I've heard it.

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jlt
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Ok, so it's an annoying argument, more importantly, what kind of pie?
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rivka
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Rhubarb.

Pay attention!

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Shan
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Ahhhhhh, rhubarb pie. There's nothing better. Except perhaps rhubarb-strawberry sauce on thick french toast.

*hungry*

quote:
Oh and the part about Washington state courting the rebels simply kills me. Outside of Pugetropolis, this is a red state, and we tote guns. Even inside the sound area, there are scads of libertarians and people like me who are all over the map politically. And dear god, there are a ton of prior service folks up here. Washington is about as pro-military as San Diego, (Which with 14 bases is pretty pro-mil.) I suspect any leftist rebellion would draw the rooftop voters, posthaste.
Thank you, Mazer -- that was a bit difficult to swallow in the book -- having been born and raised here (with a taste of WY, UT, and NY just for flavoring). It felt very . . . oh, what is the word I'm searching for . . . surrealistic -- that's it!
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Hitoshi
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quote:
Originally posted by Puppy:
Seriously. That "if you REALLY cared, you'd be devoting your energy elsewhere" thing is the most obnoxious argument EVER. It just brings with it such a huge presumption that one's opponents are hypocritical moral cretins.

That, and the whole "gay people CAN marry" argument both make me go bonkers. [Mad]
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cherrypoptart
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The differences in various political and position stances, in my humble though very excellent opinion, stem more from differences in PRIORITIES than from anything else, including logic, information, and upbringing.
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I loved Empire because of its message. There were a few unrealistic parts to the story, but this novel was very good. I had for a long time discouraged political party loyalty prioritized before national pride and thankfulness to live in someplace as great as America. From homosexuality to abortion to Iraq to whatever divides the red and blue states, we're all Americans in this, and Empire was one of my favorite books to recommend when I talk to some of the extreme leftist youngsters who seem to have been raised to think of George W. Bush as a wretched lifeless monster.

Empire was, in short, an insightful book, and when I read the original post of this forum, I think part of the reason some people might not like it is that we can't argue with it without exposing ourselves as part of the evil this book warns against. There really were a lot of Star Wars parallels, I might add, which isn't exactly a bad thing, because Star Wars has weaknesses in acting and short-term plot.

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TomDavidson
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What do extreme rightist youngsters think, in your opinion?
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TommySama
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What they've been told to [Smile]
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I lived in areas that don't have many extreme rightist youngsters. Everyone's left-winged, right-handed. I know the rightist youngsters would probably have their own set of negative presumptions about the other wing if I ever met one. I hear about this kind of thing from everywhere in the media. In terms of George W. Bush, which is what I mentioned in that post, it appears according to some of the polls that some either they aren't voting or they don't think the President is on their side. I don't want to make assessments like this based on people I've never met, so I'll try to keep to what I've seen. Look how the media tried to portray Rube and Cole.
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TomDavidson
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*whisper* The fictional media.
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I don't know, if people really do start becoming more Republican than American (I said Republican JUST to balance the "extreme leftist" mentions), Empire might not be fictional. Except for the stupid dam that was built for no reason with the water levels changeability and the secret base. And the Princeton guy who takes over the United States. And the very heavy military-grade weapons that just happened to be in the car when the Imperial AT-STs invaded.
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