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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC and Vista

   
Author Topic: OSC and Vista
Lisa
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OSC seems like a really smart guy. But I have to say that when it comes to computers, he needs help.

If anyone can get this message to him, tell him to take any files he needs off of machine he installed Vista on, reformat the hard drive, install Windows XP, and go back to work.

Vista is a nightmare, and everyone should know by now not to install anything from Microsoft until at least a year after it comes out. In the case of Vista, make that never. It's a bad idea that will not be fixed with a Vista SE (the way they "fixed" Win98 with Win98 SE). It's bad in conception and it's bad in execution.

There are only several tens of thousands of websites that have reviews of software. Why an intelligent guy like OSC would have installed Vista is beyond me.

And for those of you who bought a computer with Vista pre-installed, which may be OSC's case as well (he didn't say), almost any seller will let you have XP instead of Vista if you ask them. And I urge you to ask them. If you get Vista, you will regret it.

If I didn't know better, I'd think that Steve Jobs was behind Vista. Microsoft is going to lose a lot of people to Macs over this joke of an operating system.

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Scott R
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Lisa--

There is definitely a better way to get your point across than the way that you've chosen to do it.

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kacard
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Actually we did try. We got the last HP in the world, at least it seemed so from their whining, they sold with XP installed. And it took some doing. Dell, whose computers we like, simply is not selling anything without Vista. We asked very nicely, but maybe we don't have the magic words you obviously know. Maybe you should share them.
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neo-dragon
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Please enlighten me. Why exactly is Vista such a nightmare?
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Shawshank
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I sell computers retail (Staples) and as far as I know- no PCs anymore come without Vista on it. No other retailer has them.

I think ones from XP can be bought from Dell's website- I think they are the only ones still with them.

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Zevlag
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Yes if you go to www.dell.com and choose the Small Business section, then you will be able to find PC's with XP on them. Usually, the PC's in the small business section are priced better than those found in the home section as well.
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Roseauthor
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neo, my major problem with Vista was lack of hardware drivers or drivers that were available were a bit buggy.

Another issue was it bogging down my existing system. Major lagging.

I don't like the spyware either.

Incompatibility with prior programs and constant error messages and closing down programs.

It also doesn't like Corel (one of my favorite writing programs).

Pro isn't really necessary for most home users and leaves ports open. Unless you're ready for security issues, I'd suggest getting home version only. (Actually, I'd suggest going to a nix OS) heh

kacard,

Recently, my motherboard fried so I was forced to get a new computer. I had it built to order, (which is probably the only way to get a new computer with the OS of your choice installed). So, ... I would have suggested the same to yall as a solution to avoid the insanity of Vista. To my knowledge, all new computers are selling with Vista now. You have my sympathy. heh

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Scott R
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For my part--

I loved my PowerBook. I know that OSC doesn't care for Apple's design--software, hardware, whatever-- but my experience with Apple has been exemplary.

I *think* that the software restrictions that have historically plagued Apple are becoming a thing of the past; the change to the Intel chipset has made a big difference.

I own a Dell Inspiron 6000 now, and I'm okay with it; I picked it up in Dell's warehouse, which means it was refurbished and therefore cheaper. The big drawback for Apple products, for me, is their price tag.

But yeah-- I'm holding off on even thinking about purchasing a new laptop until all the Vista bugs get sorted out. Or until I get rich enough to purchase another Powerbook.

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TomDavidson
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Hey, Kristine, it IS possible to do network sharing of the sort that you enjoyed under XP using Vista (even though I agree that Vista is, for most users, a major inconvenience). As a network admin, myself, I'd be happy to help you get that working under Vista; the process isn't actually any more complicated than it is in XP, but the initial steps have been changed so substantially that they feel intentionally obfuscated. In other words, if you were familiar with how it worked in XP, but didn't intimately understand why it worked, Vista's implementation of the same feature can be maddeningly difficult.

------

I was actually discussing OSC's article last night with Christy, whose new laptop came with Vista pre-installed (as all new machines do nowadays, thanks to MS OEM licensing agreements). One of the observations we made was that Vista -- and Office 2007, Microsoft's other big product this year -- intentionally hides and/or moves to another level of complexity things that people who were "Power Users" of Win98 and XP took for granted. In other words, the people who will feel most crippled by Vista and Office 2007 are those who knew their way around XP and Office 2003, knew a few "tricks" to customize both programs, but didn't completely understand the software model on which both programs were designed. I suspect that OSC falls neatly into this category: someone who's good with computers as a hobbyist, who takes an interest in them, but is no longer an "expert" at the underlying logic.

It's my belief that Microsoft is deliberately inconveniencing this group in order to turn the home computer into more of an "appliance" than a "tool" in the perception of its users. (Apple already benefits from this POV, in my opinion.) There are some advantages to the "appliance" model that would simplify what Microsoft is trying to do.

Unfortunately, for those of us who prefer the "tool" paradigm, things like Vista feel like steps backward. For this reason, I expect Linux to make major inroads into the home over the next few years.

If you don't want my help with Vista, you might suggest to Scott that he download and install a copy of Ubuntu. It's a fairly popular Linux distribution, and has one of the easier installations out there.

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JennaDean
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quote:
For this reason, I expect Linux to make major inroads into the home over the next few years.
Hubby loves Linux and doesn't like Microsoft, so we have Linux on our home computer. That only worked until we had kids old enough to want to play games and get on "kid" websites. Many of those websites don't work right with Linux - there are lots of websites that require plug-ins that don't even exist for Linux. And of course any games they were given as gifts wouldn't work on Linux at all, they had either "Windows" or "Mac" versions only.

We ended up having to get a second computer with Windows.

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TomDavidson
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*nod* Dual-boot systems are still de rigeur, especially if you're gaming. That's actually one of the appealing things about buying Apple products right now; the underlying system is FreeBSD, which is almost as customizable as Linux if you know what you're doing, and Apple's a big enough company that it's got decent plug-in support from vendors (although gaming still requires a dual-boot system; gamers need Windows PCs.)
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Synesthesia
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Why does it seem like people are paying large amounts of money for things that are decreasing in quality?
I'm sticking with Win 2000 and used a company that can send you a computer without an operating system so you can install what you want on it.

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Crocobar
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I believe that OSC looks at the problem in a wrong way. There is now easy way to make modern computers work. No, not even like that. There is no effortless way to make them work. It is stupid to compare them to 10-year-old computers, it's not the same ballpark. You have to invest some of your time to understand the details of your system to make the needed functionality work.

Using XP is a temporary solution but it will go away the same way as Windows 3.1, and 95, and ME went away.

If you accept that you do have to become an expert in that part of the computer that you need to work well, you might as well do it right. Try Linux. I expect to be laughed at at this point but this option is only marginally more demanding than learning Vista, and you can be reasonably sure that you won't have to do it again.

Linux today is full featured operating system. It has the same level of functionality and nice looks as any other OS, to say the least. It is free, and its code is open for everyone. The community behind Linux is somehow more knowledgeable and friendly than the Windows community, in my opinion.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
The community behind Linux is somehow more knowledgeable and friendly than the Windows community, in my opinion.
Except to Windows users. [Wink]
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Will B
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Kristine, do you still have the XP disks from your previous computers -- or from the HP? That's what I would use. (And guard them well.)

Vista is so impossible I will not use it until they fix it. I believe they will eventually.

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pooka
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I'm hesitant to move to Vista. We were talking about getting another computer at our office, but that has kind of stalled. I tried writing up a summary of our options for my boss, and I think it scared him.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Will B:
Vista is so impossible I will not use it until they fix it. I believe they will eventually.

A man of faith. I can't imagine what they could do to fix Vista. It's not just glitchy, like 98 was in its first iteration. It's a bad conception poorly executed.
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skeptical scientist
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I'm very happy with Windows XP. I was also very happy with Windows 2000. For my post-vista laptop, I got my first Mac (although that was more because I wanted an easy to use unix-based OS than to avoid vista). However, I may switch to Macs when I get a new computer because I really don't want Vista, and macs can at least run Blizzard games.
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Orincoro
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IMO, OSC's complaints about apple are outdated.

On the one hand I understand that windows is associated with more options in software (which is true) but the trade off is... well, you get to use windows.

My mom bought a hybrid car. It isn't as powerful, but it doesn't fill the atmosphere with incredible amounts of smog. It also needs less gas. She is happier, and I hope we are all healthier. I have a mac... and I get to not stress the way I did with my last pc. No one has ever convinced me that I have made a poor trade.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Kristine, do you still have the XP disks from your previous computers -- or from the HP? That's what I would use. (And guard them well.)
It's very likely this is a violation of copyright (or, more specifically, exceeds the rights granted under the license which would be copyright infringement).
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Scott R
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How?

Wouldn't they just be installing XP (which they presumably own) instead of Vista on hardware they own?

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TomDavidson
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No. Unless you bought a retail copy of XP, you don't own XP. You own a license to use XP on the computer you bought with XP pre-installed on it.

There are only two OEM Vista versions that are licensed for "rollback" installations of OEM-licensed XP: Business and Ultimate. If you're running an OEM copy of Vista Home (or Home Premium) and you don't own a retail license for XP, you aren't legally licensed to put XP on your new machine.

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Scott R
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Okay. I gotcha, now.
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Ankit
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I didn't read the article, but I thought I'd put in my 0.02c: I currently have a sort of dual boot set up with Ubuntu and XP. I haven't yet tried Vista, but from what I can tell, it's a waste of resources. Personally, if you're not into a lot of PC gaming, I'd suggest going straight to Linux. Even if you are a gamer, WINE might do what you need it to, but it's not gonna give you great performance. Ubuntu, as mentioned, has a really easy setup and is rather easy to use. Nearly every program you can get on Windows has a version that will work on Linux that looks and acts almost exactly as its proprietary competitor (IE vs. Firefox; OpenOffice vs. Office; etc.).

The only major problem with Macs currently is that they're more expensive than most PC systems, but they also have better hardware. I built a Mac and Dell with the same specs a couple times, and they came out to the same price. Software-wise, you can get a Mac version of nearly any program that you can get for Windows (except games), and Macs are famous for being easy to use, so that's not a bad option, either.

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dantesparadigm
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From previous reviews I know OSC is quite opposed to the mac operating system, but considering what it is he wants, and the ease of use I knew exists, I think it's the perfect platform for him. Especially with all the network sharing options coming out with Leopard in October. There was a point some time ago when I was on the fence about switching, but I decided to spring for a mac, and since then I've found something new I love about my powerbook everytime I use it, unlike PC's were you're constantly discovering new and frustrating quirks.

Once you go Mac you never go back.

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Launchywiggin
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I bought a macbook two weeks ago. I was a power-PC user, so the changeover wasn't easy, despite what the commercials say. However, it took less than a week to adjust and I can definitely say that the mac is a better machine with more features--and I haven't had any compatibility problems after downloading a few extra programs.

I also dual-booted XP for fun, but didn't have much use for it, so I formatted and reloaded OSX to see what that was like (I had to do that lots with my old PCs).

I can definitely see why OSC doesn't like macs--if you don't learn how to use them, they seem backwards and difficult to deal with.

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Stephan
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If you physically own an actual purchased copy of Windows XP, not one that came with a computer, you can get Dells without an operating system at all. They seem to be cheaper.
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Blayne Bradley
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I have no clue whats wrong with your version but once I had 2 GB of ram Vista for me works fine, I have a partition with Windows 2000 on it for playing Civilization IV but for me Vista is a dream boat, sure it could use some tweaking but I'm waiting for Tweak-Vista Pro for that.

Windows Vista for me as a gamers no 1 selling point is Directx 10 gaming, Halo 2's exclusive to it etc. Oh and its shiny. The good search/file indexing makes searching easy for me sure the security feature (allow or deny) is annoying but hey you get used to it.

There are just so many little features that I like about it, XP crashed for me 3 times a day every day! Vista has not yet crashed in the year I have been using it.

I have Vista Business, getting it for free also helps with liking it.


Also when it comes to buying computers why a Dell? aren't you not allowed to even open the case without voiding the warranty? How does one upgrade it!? The best gaming machines are always the ones you build yourself. (if you know what your doing)

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Windows Vista for me as a gamers no 1 selling point is Directx 10 gaming, Halo 2's exclusive to it etc. Oh and its shiny. The good search/file indexing makes searching easy for me sure the security feature (allow or deny) is annoying but hey you get used to it.
What do you think are the benefits of DX10 gaming?
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Earendil18
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
I have no clue whats wrong with your version but once I had 2 GB of ram Vista for me works fine...

When the system requirements for an OS go from 512 to run well to 1GB to run well, (add another gig for gaming) and functionality/power-using is hamstrung...There is a problem.

I'd rather have 1.6GB out of my 2GB available upon full system load, than 1GB because Vista is a resource hog.

Tom's exactly right about the whole "hiding functionality" thing Vista does. Not to mention the whole

*click to install favorite game*
Vista: Are you suuuure?

That's the extent of the new security? Asking my permission? Brilliant!

I just started a video editing job at a local TV station. They use Macs. I used to hate Macs, until I hit the power button and was up to full system running in about 10 seconds. I still wouldn't game on a Mac, but jeezzz it sure makes XP/Vista look silly.

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ankit:
The only major problem with Macs currently is that they're more expensive than most PC systems, but they also have better hardware.

How so? The Mac I use at work has an Intel processor, a Matshita DVD player, ATI graphics chipset, and a Western Digital hard drive. All those are available for PCs. As far as I can tell, Apple just makes the motherboard and assembles the whole thing, and the motherboard doesn't appear to be any better than anything else.

On the whole I haven't seen any amazing advantages to the Mac. I definitely wouldn't call it easier to use than my Windows machine, and I haven't seen an advantage in system stability either.

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Blayne Bradley
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Ild prefer a PC just for the ability to have whatever combination of parts you want with some exceptions.
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qirien
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OSC, my hubby and I would be happy to be your free personal on-call linux tech support team if you require one. :-)

The great thing about Linux is, if you don't like the way something works, you can change it. Or, if you can't program, find someone who can and they can change it. Or find another (usually free) program that does the same thing that you like better.

For anyone interested in buying a new computer with Linux, I recommend System76 - reasonable prices, a good default setup, and good hardware. They have good support forums, too.

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ricree101
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quote:
Originally posted by qirien:
... Or find another (usually free) program that does the same thing that you like better.

Speaking of which, one of the great things about linux distributions are the software repositories. For the most part, all you have to do is look the program up in the repository, click install, and everything is taken care of with much less effort than is usually required for windows.
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chuck7
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As I read the post about OSC's experience with Vista, I just couldn't help but think "man, it's too bad he decided he hates the Mac".

I for one grew up using Windows and was generally happy with it. I never had any horror stories- I had a few hiccups here and there, but nothing worth hopping on a soap box about. I did eventually go through several Linux/BSD distributions for the fun of it, and was well off of windows before all the recent spy ware/worm problems started.

In the end I ended up on the Mac because of a few things:

1. They used unix as the foundation of the new operating system, which meant I could do on the unix things I liked to do on the same machine I could use Word or Dream weaver on
2. I was tired of managing a computer. In my experience, I use my Mac, I don't manage it. I don't spend a lot of time trying to make sure everything is just so, I just sit down, do what I need to do, and leave.
3. Ok, I admit it, they look really cool to me.

With Apple's move to Intel, getting a Mac today is really a 0 risk sorta deal. If you just decide you hate OS X, you can always install Windows and pretend its an other Windows PC.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I just got a MacBook, and it works fine for me.

Okay, it doesn't run a few programs that I liked on XP (Game Maker, for instance), it does have a lot of advantages. And it doesn't crash! YES! [The Wave] [The Wave] [The Wave] [The Wave] [The Wave] [The Wave] [The Wave] The only big problem I ever had with it so far is that it somehow can't find my network printer, but I have no immediate use for it, and I can still interact with the other parts of the network. It doesn't have a clogged start-up time and it is so easy to compile professional-looking works with absolutely no work. And everything is relatively easy to access, there's no huge "All programs" list I have to sort through.

Overall, the Mac is all I expected it to be. I'm probably going to be installing a paralell OS on it just to be able to get rid of the retardedness (meant in the most literal way possible, not the shock value term elementary schoolers like to use) of the PC.

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