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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » From OSC -- help with Ender in Exile

   
Author Topic: From OSC -- help with Ender in Exile
kacard
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OSC writes:

I can't trust my memory about details in Ender's Game and the Shadow books, and I'm afraid that in writing Ender in Exile I might be contradicting some points in the EG universe. Perhaps someone can help on the following questions:

1. Who decided Ender should not come back to Earth, and why? Peter was involved, but I think he gives different motives from what Valentine and/or the narrator of EG specifies.

2. I think there's already a contradiction between EG and the Shadow books (Giant?) about the circumstances surrounding Ender's governorship and who commanded the colony ship. But was it already fully resolved? That is, Mazer was announced as commander of the ship, but then didn't go? I remember that in conversation with Han Tzu, this was solved (after Hatrack citizens helped by pointing out the contradiction in the first place!)

I'm referring to that last chapter in EG, but what I can't do is ferret out details from the four Shadow books or any stray references elsewhere in EG or the Speaker series. I'll be grateful for any reminders people can give me of details from this time period - from the end of Ender's last battle to the arrival on his new colony world, not just what happens to Ender, but what happens to Peter and Valentine, Mazer and Graff, and the world at large.

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GaalDornick
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1. In the last chapter Valentine says, "Ender, you're never going back to Earth. I saw to that before I left." She explains that the reason is if he went back to Earth, Peter would make him his pawn and he wouldn't be happy.

2. According to EG, Ender was the governor of the first colony. Mazer was announced as the pilot of the ship, but didn't go according to the Shadow series.

Hope that helps.

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mr_porteiro_head
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1.
Ender's Game:
quote:
Peter wanted Ender back on Earth, under the protection of the Hegemon's Council. "The way things are right now, Ender, that would put you effectively under Peter's control, since half the council now does just what Peter wants. The ones that aren't Locke's lapdogs are under his thumb in other ways."
Ender's Game:
quote:
"He had plans for you, Ender. He would publicly reveal himself when you arrived, going to meet you in front of all the videos. Ender Wiggin's older brother, who also happened to be the great Locke, the architect of peace. Standing next to you, he would look quite mature. And the physical resemblance between you is stronger than ever. It would be quite simple for him, then, to take over."

"Why did you stop him?"

"Ender, you wouldn't be happy spending the rest of your life as Peter's pawn."

#2.
Shadow of the Giant:
quote:
"Everyone knows you piloted the first colony ship," said Han Tzu.

"We lied," said Mazer Rackham.

That's it. We're not given any explanation about why they lied about that. Well, besides the fact that the author messed up, but you had to read Hatrack to get that. [Wink]

[ May 05, 2008, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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Ender's Shadow:
quote:
What Bean didn't have the heart to tell them was that on Earth, both sides had insisted that they be given custody of the hero of the war, young Ender Wiggin, whose great victory had captured the popular imagination. Whoever had him would not only have the use of his fine military mind -- they thought -- but would also have the benefit of all the publicity and public adulation that surrounded him, that filled every mention of his name.

So as the political leaders worked out the truce, they reached a simple and obvious compromise. All the children from Battle School would be repatriated. Except Ender Wiggin.

Ender Wiggin would not be coming home. Neither party on Earth would be able to use him. That was the compromise.

And it had been proposed by Locke. By Ender's own brother.

When he learned that it made Bean seethe inside, the way he had when he thought Petra had betrayed Ender. It was wrong. It couldn't be borne.

Perhaps Peter Wiggin did it to keep Ender from becoming a pawn. To keep him free. Or perhaps he did it so that Ender could not use his celebrity to make his own play for political power. Was Peter Wiggin saving his brother, or eliminating a rival for power?

Someday I'll meet him and find out, thought Bean. And if he betrayed his brother, I'll destroy him.


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Dagonee
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So, taking it all together, Peter proposed the compromise after it being made clear to him by Val that he couldn't have what he originally wanted - Ender on earth. Peter, being Peter, spun this as his own idea, gaining another notch on his belt as Locke the great diplomat and keeping other politicians from knowing he had been thwarted.

Bean, not being privy to the Val/Peter feud, jumped to the plausible conclusion that Peter wanted Ender gone to eliminate one of the few credible rivals to Peter's Hegemony.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Bean remained open to the idea that Peter might have done it to keep Ender from becoming someone's pawn.
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I could NOT have picked a better time to reread the Shadow books. I just finished Shadow Puppets.

In Shadow of the Hegemon, Peter thinks to himself that having kept Ender away from Earth was the best thing he could have done for Ender, knowing that nations would try to use him. So it was Locke who made the proposal to keep Ender on Eros. Valentine says in Ender's Game that telling Peter to keep Ender away from Earth was the best thing she could have done for Ender because Peter would try to use him.

So...

Locke wanted to keep Ender away from Earth to protect him.
Demosthenes wanted to bring Ender back to Earth to live a new life.

But...

Peter wanted to bring Ender home so he could announce his identity as the brother of the champion prodigy of humanity, boosting him to the Hegemony. He was using Demosthenes to achieve this goal.

Valentine did not want Peter to use Ender for politics, and convinced Peter to demand that Ender be kept from returning to Earth to prevent his being used.

Why Mazer wasn't on the ship after all, is unexplained in Giant. I supposed Mazer's motive was to avoid the attention and worship that would inevitably befall the hero of the Second Invasion, and the Graff's (to claim Mazer piloted the ship) was to popularize the colonization program.

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mr_porteiro_head
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In Shadow of the Hegemon, Peter believes that it was himself that, against Valentine's wishes', kept Ender from returning to Earth.

quote:
Valentine. Stupid to choose Ender and exile over Peter and life. Stupid to get so angry over the obvious necessity of keeping Ender off planet. For his own protection, Peter told her, and hadn't events proven it? If he'd come home as Valentine demanded, he'd be a captive somewhere, or dead, depending on whether his captors had been able to get him to cooperate. I was right, Valentine, as I've always been right about everything. But you'd rather be nice than right, you'd rather be liked than powerful, and you'd rather be in exile with the brother who worships you than share power with the brother who made you influential.

Ender was already gone, Valentine. When they took him away to Battle School, he was never coming home -- not the precious little Enderpoo that you adored and petted and watched over like a little mommy playing with a doll. They were going to make a soldier out of him, a killer -- did you even look at the video they showed during Graff's court-martial? -- and if something named Andrew Wiggin came home, it would not be the Ender you sentimentalized to the point of nausea. He'd be a damaged, broken, useless soldier whose war was finished. Pushing to have him sent off to a colony was the kindest thing I could have done for our erstwhile brother. Nothing would have been sadder than having his biography include the ruin that his life would have become here on Earth, even if nobody bothered to kidnap him. Like Alexander, he'll go out with a flash of brilliant light and live forever in glory, instead of withering away and dying in miserable obscurity, getting trotted out for parades now and then. I was the kind one!

Good riddance to both of you. You would have been drags on my boat, thorns in my side, pains in my ass.

This seems to completely contradict the earlier passages I quoted above. Whether that's an error on OSC's part or sour grapes revisionism on Peter's part, I don't know.

edit: I guess it's always possible that it was Valentine who was lying or deluded back in the end of Ender's Game. But I doubt it.

[ May 05, 2008, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Jeorge
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I've always been interested by the differing points of view held by different characters regarding the same events. I always assumed that this particular contradiction in motivation/explanation was a differing viewpoint (as MPH said, maybe revisionism on Peter's part).

But I've always hoped that OSC would elaborate on it. Now, finding out that it may not have been intentional, I'm equally interested to see how he'll dig his characters out of it. [Smile]

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Possible explanation for that passage, porteiro:

Peter never wanted Ender to return to Earth, because he would have not been able to be left alone by the other nations, and Ender himself might not be cooperative in supporting him. After all, their childhood adventures are not those that Ender remembers with fondness. Valentine, of course, didn't want to keep Ender from his home, and wrote with that motive as Demosthenes. THEN, Peter starting talking to Valentine about how good it would look if he greeted Ender at his homecoming and then announced who Locke really was, BUT he says this to convince Demosthenes to cease-and-desist the campaign to bring Ender home. It seems in his character to try to manipulate Valentine into thinking that. Valentine sees the danger in letting Ender home with Peter, while Peter sees the danger in letting Ender home with the world (which, in both their eyes, is about to be Peter's). So that passage is referring to Valentine's Demosthenes position (rallying to bring Ender home) before she changed her mind and saw the danger of Peter's manipulation of Ender.

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neo-dragon
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So, in EG Valentine tells Ender that it was her idea (against Peter's wishes) not to have him return, but in SotH Peter reflects upon how it was his idea all his own idea...

But there is another reference to the matter in "Xenocide". The following passage in in chapter 2, shortly before Valentine meets Miro:

quote:
She had loved him as fervently as she had loathed Peter; and when Peter exiled his younger brother from the Earth that Peter was determined to rule, Valentine went with Ender-her final repudiation of Peter's personal
hegemony over her.

So that seems to be one more point on the side of it being Peter's idea.

Also, from later in Xenocide when the new Peter is made:

quote:
Now Ender knew him. "Peter," he said. His brother, his childhood enemy, at
the age when he became Hegemon. The picture that had been playing on all the vids when Peter managed to arrange things so that Ender could never come home to Earth after his great victory.


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Dagonee
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Perhaps the two older Wiggin geniuses each fooled the other about what s/he really wanted as they manipulated each other to get it, and didn't realize they were in agreement.

Ender would naturally know Val's version of events.

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la.SOMA
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I made a reference in the "untold stories: speculation..." thread to the fact that a story showing how valentine chose to go with ender would be great. i always felt that the contradiction served a purpose like mazer "lying" about going on the colony ship.

valentine could have lied about it being her choice.

*edit*

sorry. i felt like i could have been more clear:

seemingly most of the sources say that it WAS peter's idea. the way i've always concluded it was that valentine lied to ender as to help him deal with the fact that he would never return to earth. this way he wouldnt spend a lifetime being bitter with peter about never being able to return home and could simply deal with it by standing face to face with valentine.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
i always felt that the contradiction served a purpose like mazer "lying" about going on the colony ship.
What purpose do you think that Mazer's lying served, besides fixing a mistake of OSC's?

quote:
Perhaps the two older Wiggin geniuses each fooled the other about what s/he really wanted as they manipulated each other to get it, and didn't realize they were in agreement.
I like that answer. [Smile]
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Catseye1979
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As for Graff, in the short story "Gold Bug" in IGMS you have this right before Ender's Coloney ship arrivess:

quote:
There were two messages recorded. He played the first one. It consisted of the face of the Minister of Colonization, Graff, and his message was brief.

"I know you're planning to skip town before Wiggin gets there. Talk to Wiggin before you go. He won't try to stop you, so relax."

Seeing as Graff was an Officer when Ender's Father was 5 years old, Graff would be in his mid 90's at the absolute youngest (he would have to have been in his real early 20's in "Polish Boy") but most likely between 100 and 110 years old (I'm under the impression that "Mazer in Prison" happened before "Polish Boy") , and still not retired. It's the future so I just pass it off as people live longer and Graff isn't the type to simply retire.
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Steve_G
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quote:
Originally posted by la.SOMA:
I made a reference in the "untold stories: speculation..." thread to the fact that a story showing how valentine chose to go with ender would be great. i always felt that the contradiction served a purpose like mazer "lying" about going on the colony ship.

valentine could have lied about it being her choice.

*edit*

sorry. i felt like i could have been more clear:

seemingly most of the sources say that it WAS peter's idea. the way i've always concluded it was that valentine lied to ender as to help him deal with the fact that he would never return to earth. this way he wouldnt spend a lifetime being bitter with peter about never being able to return home and could simply deal with it by standing face to face with valentine.

La.SOMA, this is the explanation I like best. It would be natural for Valentine to lie and take the blame if it would help Ender in the long run.
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Steve_G
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quote:
Originally posted by Catseye1979:
As for Graff, in the short story "Gold Bug" in IGMS you have this right before Ender's Coloney ship arrivess:

quote:
There were two messages recorded. He played the first one. It consisted of the face of the Minister of Colonization, Graff, and his message was brief.

"I know you're planning to skip town before Wiggin gets there. Talk to Wiggin before you go. He won't try to stop you, so relax."

Seeing as Graff was an Officer when Ender's Father was 5 years old, Graff would be in his mid 90's at the absolute youngest (he would have to have been in his real early 20's in "Polish Boy") but most likely between 100 and 110 years old (I'm under the impression that "Mazer in Prison" happened before "Polish Boy") , and still not retired. It's the future so I just pass it off as people live longer and Graff isn't the type to simply retire.
I haven't read gold bug, but Graff could have taken a short interstellar (or shorter) cruise at some point to account for the age discrepancy.
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Xann.
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve_G:
quote:
Originally posted by Catseye1979:
As for Graff, in the short story "Gold Bug" in IGMS you have this right before Ender's Coloney ship arrivess:

quote:
There were two messages recorded. He played the first one. It consisted of the face of the Minister of Colonization, Graff, and his message was brief.

"I know you're planning to skip town before Wiggin gets there. Talk to Wiggin before you go. He won't try to stop you, so relax."

Seeing as Graff was an Officer when Ender's Father was 5 years old, Graff would be in his mid 90's at the absolute youngest (he would have to have been in his real early 20's in "Polish Boy") but most likely between 100 and 110 years old (I'm under the impression that "Mazer in Prison" happened before "Polish Boy") , and still not retired. It's the future so I just pass it off as people live longer and Graff isn't the type to simply retire.
I haven't read gold bug, but Graff could have taken a short interstellar (or shorter) cruise at some point to account for the age discrepancy.
He could have taken a ship, but wouldn't he still be about... 65 at this point? maybe less with the ship.
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sylvrdragon
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Point being, the story behind why Ender was exiled is vague enough that OSC could go any way he wants with it really. Personally, I like the idea that it was Peter's move, but Val took the blame upon herself so that Ender wouldn't live to hate Peter (any more than he apparently did). I think it really plays into Val's altruism. As a nifty add-on, it also plays into Ender's empathy that he forgave her for it.

As for Mazer, I think that him supposedly piloting the first colony ship was a minor enough point in EG that the added lines to Giant were sufficient enough to free him of any entanglements that may have lingered.

About Ender's governorship, I believe he ascended to the position as was announced (I loaned out my last copy of Ender's Game and never got it back, so I can't know for sure till I get another one), and I believe Gold Bug confirms. If I remember correctly, he up and decided to run off with Val somewhere in his early 20s shortly after finding the Hive Queen.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Perhaps the two older Wiggin geniuses each fooled the other about what s/he really wanted as they manipulated each other to get it, and didn't realize they were in agreement.
I like that answer. [Smile]
So do I. It's elegant, and it's perfectly consistent with their previous interactions.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
This seems to completely contradict the earlier passages I quoted above. Whether that's an error on OSC's part or sour grapes revisionism on Peter's part, I don't know.

edit: I guess it's always possible that it was Valentine who was lying or deluded back in the end of Ender's Game. But I doubt it.

The problem is that between EG and the Shadow books, Peter's character is revised in Future Peter.

Future Peter reflects the image of Peter held by Ender, but his reform is also an expression of the individual potential that Ender endowed him with in his imagination. For that reason, I think we can infer that Ender was never completely convinced that Valentine's assertions, that Peter had wanted Ender back on the planet, were accurate.

Perhaps it was Peter who ALLOWED Valentine to believe that she was saving Ender by insisting that he not return. Perhaps Peter did not truly want him back, but manipulated Valentine into believing that he did, IN ORDER to convince Valentine to leave, thus eliminating BOTH of his sibling rivals.

This situation also allows Peter to more closely control Ender's Jeesh through the Strategos, Bean, and create the FPE with them as his chief captains, rather than with them under the control of Ender. Because they respect but do not love Bean, they are not part of a cult of personality, but join the FPE's struggle based on personal convictions.

Hence, through the exile of Ender, the stronger and more trusted leader, the political process favored by Peter is allowed to be set in motion, and the position of Hegemon is not based on personality or loyalty, but instead on the adherence to a philosophy.

What Valentine characterizes as "cynical moments," Peter remarks that he wishes to unite the world without first conquering it. If he were to use the services of Ender, he would surely be a conquerer, but without Ender, Peter's political skills become his primary tool, and he is able to unite the world under a single banner of piece, rather than conquest.

Imagine if Julius Cesar had conquered Gaul, and then stayed there, or gone as far as America, never to return? The opportunity to unite Gaul and the Italian peninsula under a single unified government, rather than a Empirial client-state relationship, would have fallen to Pompeii Magnus. Perhaps he or others in the Roman Republic would have seen an opportunity to unite the world with representation in the senate for the client-states, if a dictator had not stepped into the power vacuum created by the annexation of Gaul. This power-vacuum, created by conquest, was what allowed Octavian to come to power, and eventually to dissolve effective representational government in Rome. However, the opposite could easily have occurred, with Pompeii Magnus ceding the power vacuum to the Senate, and allowing for greater representation of Rome's conquered lands.

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Tresopax
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quote:
seemingly most of the sources say that it WAS peter's idea. the way i've always concluded it was that valentine lied to ender as to help him deal with the fact that he would never return to earth. this way he wouldnt spend a lifetime being bitter with peter about never being able to return home and could simply deal with it by standing face to face with valentine.
If Valentine felt that Peter's motivation for getting Ender exiled was to further his own plan to take over, she could also conceivably have lied to him in order to prevent Ender from knowing he was helping Peter by leaving. If Ender felt that leaving would serve Peter's end, he might do something to try to resist leaving - or alternatively he might spend the rest of his life feeling guilty not only for his actions against the Buggers but then also for failing to resist Peter's plans. By claiming it is her idea, Val would not only reassure Ender that it is the best for him (since she is the one who Ender trusts) but would also lead Ender to believe that leaving is a way of resisting Peter (when it really is not.)

Perhaps it is best if we don't really know for sure what the motives are behind it!

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Another reference from Shadow of the Giant:

quote:
Shadow of the Giant: Page 93

"Vlad," said Peter. "All I'm saying is, think about this. Ender Wiggin did two great deeds for humanity. He wiped out the Buggers. And he never returned to Earth."

Vlad turned on Peter with real fire in his eyes. "Do you think I don't know who arranged for that?"

"I advocated it," said Peter.

...(Peter explaining that Ender would have been used)

Vlad nodded. "So its just a happy coincidence that it left you without a rival for the Hegemony."

It looks like not only Peter, but the rest of the world, is under the perception that it was Peter who lobbied to keep Ender off of Earth.
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Shan
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I've pondered off and on if the IF and Graff and Mazer lied about Mazer piloting the ship Ender was on because they had inklings of the problems and issues that would arise with lotsa military geniuses at the beck and call of their birth nations . . . they wanted to keep one of the few (if only) people to hand who could conceivably outhink these kids . . .

*ponders some more*

Ooops -- sorry for the derailment on the original question.

I think the Valentine/Peter outsmarting each other is pretty plausible. All those feints within feints within feints.

I am thinking Bean was a bit more involved and might need to be brought forward in resolving this conundrum. In Ender's Shadow, Bean gets on the nets and sends letters to Locke and Demosthenes (in six parts with different net IDs) calling for Battle School to be dissolved at once upon the war's conclusion, pointing out all the inherent dangers in having brilliant commanders on the loose . . . see hardbound version, pages 330-332.

The paragraph goes on to talk about Demosthenes not being able to let go of the "emotional issue" which played into nationalistic fervor, and Locke supporting --in a more moderate way -- the idea of bringing the children home the minute the war ended.

And remember -- this debate began BEFORE the final battles started. Bean and his group were on their way to Command School while this was going on, so there was plenty of behnd-the-scenes political manuevering. As a matter of fact, Graff confronts Bean on these letters (see pages 347-348), and tells Bean that the first kids are being brought home -- that Bean's letters had real impact.

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BlueWizard
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Keep in mind that when Demosthenes and Locke speak publicly, especially at this time, they speak with one voice -- Peter's.

Behind the scenes, before Locke or Demosthenes ever speak publicly, Peter and Valentine have worked out what they are going to say, and what the intended effects of those statements are going to be.

Demosthenes is ever the bleeding heart liberal, so she drums up sympathy for Ender by asking for the brilliant but tragic young hero to come home.

Now Peter in the guise of Locke preys on this sympathy by pointing out what a pawn Ender would be. How he would never have peace. How he would be in constant danger. How the poor hero would spend a lifetime of torment on earth. So...the best thing to do is to let him go to a colony world and live a life in quiet happy peace, free from the torment of earth side life.

For the most part, the public doesn't care, go stay whatever, but because Demosthenes has drummed up the sympathy for Ender, the public does care. Locke preys on the sympathy but adds the tragedy of Ender coming home in order to make the public content with their hero not coming home.

That is how they manipulated the public to get the decision and consensus they wanted.

The real decisions happen behind the scenes, and I think it went something like this.

Valentine did want Ender to come home, but at the same time, did not want to have Peter controlling and manipulating Ender, making him dance like some tire worn puppet on a string.

Peter on the other hand, while I'm sure he had many complex schemes, wanted one of two things. He either wanted Ender home and completely under his control, or he wanted Ender completely and irrevocably GONE.

Peter did not want Ender gone only for Ender to come back just as Peter is about to deliver his coup de grāce and seize power. That would spoil everything. Peter could not have an unknown. He could not have a challenge to his power at a critical time. So, Ender was either here under control or he was forever gone.

As Valentine and Peter hashed this out behind the scenes, I think it became more and more clear to Valentine, that Ender would never be free or at peace. And, it became more and more clear to Peter that as long as Ender was on earth, he was an ever constant threat to Peter's attempt to gain power and control.

Inevitably, it became clear to both of them, that Ender couldn't come home. So, they rallied Locke and Demosthenes to get the public to agree. That decided, Valentine went with Ender, the brother she loved and respected, and left Peter behind to play his games; games which Valentine was more than happy to not be a part of.

So my key point is that, because Demosthenes and Locke are not speaking 'truth', but rather are speaking to influence public opinion to their advantage, you can't weigh their statements against the private statements of Valentine and Peter.

You would logically and reasonable expect their personal opinion to NOT match their public opinions. And, you would expect the behind-the-scenes discussions to be long, heated, and complex, gradually resolving into a final and inevitable conclusion -- better for Val to go with Ender, than for Ender, Peter, and Val to be torn apart on earth.

Keep it in mind.

Steve/bluewizard

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
"Demosthenes is ever the bleeding heart liberal, "
Um, Demosthenes was the warmonger chauvinist. It was Locke who was the enlightened internationalist.

That's why Demosthenes was arguing in favour of the return of the American war-hero and placement in a position of power, and Locke was arguing against it.

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Lyrhawn
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I find it easier to believe that Peter always intended for Ender to never return to Earth. Peter arrogant to the extreme but was he really stupid enough to believe that he could control Ender in any way? He had to know that at that age, Ender wasn't going to go along with his plans, and that he hated him. I think he was practical enough to realize that he couldn't protect Ender, and I think subsequent events prove that much. Peter had very little physical power until the end of the Shadow series. Had Ender returned immediately, he would have been for the taking of anyone who had the will to do it, and there were plenty of players on the world stage to do it. And anyone with Ender under their thumb would have been the biggest obstacle to Peter's achieving real power.

Part of me also wonders if Peter didn't subconciously want Ender gone knowing that Val would go with him. With both his siblings off to the wild unknown, he'd really have no intellectual equal in his quest and far fewer things to get in the way. He had to know that Val wasn't under his thumb either, which I'd think would be clear from the fact that she was writing Demosthenes without his help and doing quite well at it. I think that, like Bean sometimes does and says things without knowing why, maybe Peter wrapped them both in a ship and launched them as far away from Earth as possible, two birds with one stone.

As for the conflicting reports on who claimed credit for sending Ender away: I can easily see how they'd both think that they were the one who did it. I think the kids in that family liked mental gamesmanship, the wheels within wheels within wheels war of words. It's very believable that they thought they were playing each other, or for that matter that they thought they had to play each other even though a blunt conversation would've accomplished the task much more easily. Neither Peter nor Val ever did anything against one another the easy way, it was always planning 10 steps ahead.

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talsmitde
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In response to C3PO's comment about Vlad's opinion, I think it better reflects Bean's thinking on the situation as Bean described it to the rest of the jeesh after the last battle than it reflects world-wide conventional wisdom. The "fire" in Vlad's eyes goes right along with Bean's decision to destroy Peter if he had betrayed Ender.

I'm personally a big fan of the idea that Valentine and Peter hashed it out behind the scenes (with Valentine wanting Ender to return to normalcy and Peter either wanting him under control or completely gone) and then manipulated public opinion as described by BlueWizard, only with Demosthenes hailing Ender as a triumphant war hero who deserves to be feted by a thankful world--remember, this is probably happening before the trial of Colonel Graff, so the public doesn't really know how "tragic" Ender's life was. Considering how celebrity works now, I think the public would care very much about what happens next to the boy who saved the world, though Locke and Demosthenes could easily drive the news herd wherever they wanted.

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Shan
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And really -- don't forget the debates began long before the battles that Ender led, as discussed in Ender's Shadow. So, plenty of room for all the political manuevering, word games, set-ups, etc.

It'd be interesting to find out just how influential little Bean was in his letter writing to Locke and Demosthenes on this very issue . . .

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BlueWizard
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To Aris Katsaris,

While I may have been somewhat off in my characterization of Demosthenes as a 'bleeding heart liberal', as it seems that on occasion Demosthenes was spouting inflamed rhetoric, only to have Locke step in as the voice of reason. You still missed my central point, and I quote -

"Keep in mind that when Demosthenes and Locke speak publicly, especially at this time, they speak with one voice -- Peter's.

It is not possible to reconcile Peter and Val's statements with Locke and Demosthenes because Locke and Demosthenes statement serve only one purpose, and that is to mold public opinion.

Whatever Peter and Val truly said and felt was said and felt behind the scenes. And their statement likely reflect a long and very HEATED debate between them. A debate in which they ultimately reach a mutual conclusion.

Hey...I'm just saying...

Steve/bluewizard

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PSI Teleport
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"It looks like not only Peter, but the rest of the world, is under the perception that it was Peter who lobbied to keep Ender off of Earth. "

I don't think that Vlad is an accurate representation of the "rest of the world". He would, presumably, either be in a more privileged position or more intelligent than most people.

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kacard
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Thanks so much everyone!!!! We really appreciate the input.

Kristine Card

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