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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » OSC Dark Knight Review (spoilers) (Page 0)

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Author Topic: OSC Dark Knight Review (spoilers)
mr_porteiro_head
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I thought he growled "Get Rachel" to him, meaning that Batman was going to get Dent.
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Earendil18
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I'm seeing it tomorrow, I'll let you guys know.
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Elmer's Glue
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He went to get Rachel.
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TomDavidson
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Yep. One of the things I found interesting in the film is that the Joker deliberately subverted every moral choice Batman made, rendering them largely irrelevant. The only choice Batman was able to make was ultimately the decision to keep fighting.
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Dagonee
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I'm thoght the Joker lied about the addresses, so Batman went to get Rachel, but ended up rescuing Dent. He then had to explain to Dent why he let his (Dent's) wife-to-be die.

Another excuse to see it again, I suppose.

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Synesthesia
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I want to see it in IMAX

Even though it's irresponsible.

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volssam
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The Dark Knight was soooo good....definately in my top 10 of all time. I really hope it beats Titanic for the most every made, but that is a tall order. But if we all go see it again....who knows? I plan to see it again.
And I thought Batman definately said Rachel when Gordon said "who are you going after?" But it does seem strange why Batman wouldn't try to explain to him why he came to him (aka The Joker lied to him). But maybe Dent was so distraught at that point it wouldn't have mattered....

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Mucus
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I guessed that maybe Batman lied about purposely rescuing Dent, to make it seem like there was a reason Dent was saved. Tragically, he thought this would comfort Dent, that he lived for a reason, but it just really backfired.
But it didn't really seem like a convincing explanation.

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Artemisia Tridentata
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Ok, I'm old and have tinnitus. But, I heard him say "Get Rachel", Meaning, "ya'll get Rachel." What followed was confusing. (It's bad enough that all the actors look alike. Now all the sets look alike too) I thought Batman was intentionally heading for Dent, and everyone else was heading for Rachel, with the hope that both would be rescued.
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Corwin
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I won't read anything in this thread, as there may be more spoilers*, but I just wanted to say that his review made me want to see "Mamma Mia!". [Smile]

* the ones about "Dark Knight" from OSC's review I could probably have spotted during the movie before they took place anyway. I don't mind having read them here.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
But, I heard him say "Get Rachel", Meaning, "ya'll get Rachel."
Well, that's two of us.
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FlyingCow
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I thought Gordon asked which address he was going to, and he said "Rachel". Maybe he said "to get Rachel".

Either way, answering "where are you going?" with "get Rachel" would seem weird.

I guess I'll just have to see it again... ::twists own arm::

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Chris Bridges
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I had no problem understanding that Batman intended to get Rachel, and frankly don't see how that sequence makes sense otherwise. The Joker would lie, Batman would fall for it, the result causes the most anguish while he gets away. I don't see where there'd even be the suggestion he'd go after Dent.
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the_Somalian
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Why is OSC so disrespectful of people who appreciate "Citizen Kane" more than he does?
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Synesthesia
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I know!
Citizen Kane is a classic. I love that movie. Lots of movies have been influenced by it and I dont' see how that makes me elitist.

It's as annoying as people on IMDB.com who think you're an idiot if you hate or like certain movies.
I never understand that.

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Elmer's Glue
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Citizen Kane sucked. It was almost as bad as Plan 9 from Outer Space.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Elmer's Glue:
He went to get Rachel.

The film leaves that point ambiguous.

Possibilities I can see:

1. He says he's going for Rachel, but lies or changes his mind.

2. The Joker switched locations and Batman tries to get Rachel, ending up with Dent.

3. Batman knows (guesses) that the locations have been switched and says he's going for "Rachel" when he's really after Dent. Either that or he isn't sure, and goes blindly to one of the locations anyway.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I know!
Citizen Kane is a classic. I love that movie. Lots of movies have been influenced by it and I dont' see how that makes me elitist.

It's as annoying as people on IMDB.com who think you're an idiot if you hate or like certain movies.
I never understand that.

OSC is serially incoherent on issues of taste. He just likes what he likes, and doesn't like what he doesn't. And just like the people he so hatefully dismisses, he comes up with arbitrary and inconsistent rationale for all his aesthetic choices to dismiss them for poor morals (if he hates them) or justify their lack of morals (if he does like them).

Shockingly, he is just like everybody else in this.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by the_Somalian:
Why is OSC so disrespectful of people who appreciate "Citizen Kane" more than he does?

I can imagine OSC renting the tape of Citizen Kane in 1987, loaded and ready to hate the thing. I don't know that this is the way it went down, but I'd bet you a nickel he watched it so that he could hate it more effectively.

Edit: for the record, I haven't seen it and don't plan to. I might see it sometime, but it's been built up too much to interest me.

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Cashew
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Quoting Orincoro
"he comes up with arbitrary and inconsistent rationale for all his aesthetic choices"

I can't go along with that. He has a consistent rationale which shows up all the way through his reviews.

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Edgehopper
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He was going to get Rachel. You can tell because of the addresses--Batman tells Gordon that he was going to Rachel, and Gordon orders his men to go to the address that the Joker said Harvey was at. At least, I'm fairly sure I remember that correctly.

I thought it was also very possible that the detonators on the boat would blow up their own boats rather than the other ones; another of Joker's lies. It fits with the Joker's pattern, of lying to get good guys to kill good guys (like setting up the hostages in clown masks to make them targets for the SWAT team.) No one in the movie even considers that possibility, though.

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MrSquicky
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quote:
I thought it was also very possible that the detonators on the boat would blow up their own boats rather than the other ones
That's exactly what I thought was going to happen.
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scifibum
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Why do people think Batman would go to to save Rachel? I can't agree.

- The whole movie displays Batman making grandly unselfish choices. It's the overriding theme of his character in the movie.

- Remember: he hid Dent before making sure that Rachel was safe when the Joker was coming to the benefit.

- He believes in Dent and considers him the most important person in the city. This is made explicit. Therefore the moral choice from his POV is to save Dent.

Are we so used to love trumping all other concerns that we expect Batman to make the same kind of choice as leading men in romantic comedies?

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scifibum
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Oh, and Syn: You sounded like you thought that OSC called The Dark Knight "irresponsible." He actually said Mamma Mia was the irresponsible film. (Not that I'd expect you to agree with his assessment of Mamma Mia.)
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Oh, and Syn: You sounded like you thought that OSC called The Dark Knight "irresponsible." He actually said Mamma Mia was the irresponsible film. (Not that I'd expect you to agree with his assessment of Mamma Mia.)

No, I meant going to see Dark Knight on IMAX is irresponsible for ME to do because I don't have a job.
I should save my money. I'd have to go alllllllllll the way to Reading.

But I want to go and see it so badly, so I think I might do it tomorrow or Saturday because I just can't fight the urge!

Plus it's probably going to make my head explode from the awesome.

I hope I don't get motion sick.

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scifibum
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Oh, I see. [Embarrassed]

That makes sense.

(mumbles and shuffles off)

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Why do people think Batman would go to to save Rachel?

Because he said so?

I didn't feel that I had any trouble hearing the dialog over the music in this scene, and both times I've seen it it seemed pretty clear that he told Gordon that he was going after Rachel.

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scifibum
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But if Joker was trying to fool Batman about who was where, and Batman saw through that, but didn't have time to explain it to Gordon? He could still have shouted that he was going after Rachel.

Also, I detected zero surprise when Batman arrives and sees Dent. Could be the mask, I guess, but it seems like we would have gotten some indication of distress about having failed to save Rachel, if that was his intention.

For me the strongest point is the fact that he's become a "dark knight", who makes tough choices that might result in innocent deaths (as elucidated by Alfred), as well as taking the blame for bad things as explained in the final scenes. Sacrificing his love interest for someone he considers more important for Gotham's future seems to fit this theme so well that I can't believe the character intended otherwise.

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Earendil18
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I just saw it last night. He definitely yells "Rachel!".

The Joker switched addresses.

Batman IS surprised, and I think it's implied in the cinematography and type of shots. You have a POV shot of Batman coming through the door to a starkly light, wide shot, with a small figure of Dent on the floor. This shot "hesistates", then cuts to Batman who is standing still, then realizing it's too late, runs to save Dent.

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MrSquicky
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Honestly, while I can see how that part was essential to the birth of two face, I think it was the most unrealistic, suspension of belief destroying set up in the entire movie.

The only way "You'll only have time to save one of them." works is if the individual is isolated. Barring near omniscient timing and knowledge of the relative speed abilities, I don't see how the Joker could have set up the timing that way. The cops could have gotten to Dent or, better yet, radioed to someone closer to the area - heck, both areas.

I was willing to buy all the Joker's other magic tricks, but that one was too much for me.

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manji
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
Honestly, while I can see how that part was essential to the birth of two face, I think it was the most unrealistic, suspension of belief destroying set up in the entire movie.

The only way "You'll only have time to save one of them." works is if the individual is isolated. Barring near omniscient timing and knowledge of the relative speed abilities, I don't see how the Joker could have set up the timing that way. The cops could have gotten to Dent or, better yet, radioed to someone closer to the area - heck, both areas.

I was willing to buy all the Joker's other magic tricks, but that one was too much for me.

Isn't that why the Joker asked the time? If you know when the bombs are going to go off, and if you can roughly estimate police response times, and if you can estimate how long it takes to get from the MCU to either one of these locations (all while taking Gotham traffic into account)... I don't see why you can't pull this off.
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MrSquicky
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There was a small gap between when Batman arrived at Dent's location and Gordon arrived at Rachel's. The cops just barely missed saving her and Batman didn't really get there in time to save Harvey. Batman's speed was not known to the Joker as he was using a piece of equipment no one had gotten to see before. The timing was too perfect for me to believe.

And there could (and almost definitely should) have been cops closer to one or both locations that could have been raised by the radio.

If it works for you, that's great. It was for me the one wrong note in what immediately became one of my favorite movies.

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scifibum
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I hinted at it above, but I was struck by what a cold hearted character Alfred seems to be. He doesn't seem to hesitate or show any regret when he suggests that it's OK for Batman to let innocents die in order to preserve his secrets and ability to fight. And then he tells the story where they end up burning the forest. The dude is ice cold.
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manji
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It's hardly a small gap. Commissioner Gordon is well outside the blast radius when he arrives on the scene. Batman already had Dent outside, free from his chair, when the bombs went off.
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MrSquicky
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It wasn't a big blast radius. How big a time gap did you see there? I saw maybe 2 and a half minutes at the most.
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manji
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I don't know, two and a half minutes seems to me to be a lot of time. Thirty seconds to a minute might be more of a stretch for me. If it's not enough time for you, then whatever. It seems a waste to belabor the point.
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Saephon
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Just to throw in my two cents, I disagree with the confusion over which one Batman meant to go after. Gordon clearly asks "Which one are you going after", and Batman yells back "Rachel!" I've seen the movie enough times and I have wonderful hearing [Razz] Now, if you want to believe Batman was lying or changed his mind, that's fine. But I don't think it's wise to lie to the Police Commissioner about something crucial like that.

Besides, he leaped out of a window to save her once, why wouldn't he rush to help her again? He's not inhuman, and at a moment of crisis and adrenaline, when there's not much time to decide or think things through, him choosing the girl is very realistic to me.

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Synesthesia
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Yup, saw it on IMAX.
He did indeed intend to save Rachel.

Also IMAX is awesome. I noticed so many new things, I love that movie.

Plus, Batman is cool because for the most part he takes it all on himself.

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Aris Katsaris
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Why do people think Batman would go to to save Rachel?

Because he said in the movie he was going for Rachel, and some of us choose to actually comment on what we actually saw in the movie.

Whether we believe that to be the right choice or not is besides the point. He SAID he was going for Rachel. Full-stop.

quote:
Are we so used to love trumping all other concerns that we expect Batman to make the same kind of choice as leading men in romantic comedies? [/QB]
No, some of us are merely used to listening to the evidence of our own ears.
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danila
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I listened to an interview with Jonathan Nolan (who wrote the screenplay) and he talked about the Joker switching the addresses (and that's definitely what happens according to him). He said that this scene demonstrates a contrast between Batman and "superheros". In superhero movies the hero is always presented with this kind of dilemma (save the girl or the bus full of people, etc.) and the superhero ALWAYS finds a way to save everyone. But Batman is not a superhero (just a guy with a lot of money and training) and he could only save one person. And the Joker had to make it even worse by insuring that Batman would never save the one he wanted to save.
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Scorpio
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I have seen it three times. It was very clear to me what was said, but I talked with people who were unsure, so I brought a tape-recorder with me the third time. I have listened to it an additional five times.

Fact: here is what is said.

Joker: He's at 250 52nd street, and she's on Avenue X at Cicero.

Gordon: Which one you going after?

Batman: Rachel.

Gordon: [to his men] We're getting Dent!* Two-fifty fifty-second street!

*I can't tell if he says "We're getting Dent" or "We got Dent!", but the following sentence is extremely clear. There is absolutely no reason for him to shout an address to his men unless that was where they were going.

And then later, Two-Face tells Gordon to meet him at the spot where he lost his family: two-fifty fifty-second street, saying that this is where she died.

QED: the Joker switched addresses.

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neo-dragon
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Yeah, I think you got the dialog dead-on, Scorpio. I've only seen it twice but that's exactly what I heard both times. The second time (which was just a couple of days ago) I listened especially closely and made a point of remembering all the dialog related to the addresses and who Batman said he was going after. It's easy to remember the address that the Joker said Harvey was at because it has two "2"s in it (what a coincidence, eh? [Wink] ), and that was the address that Gordon gave his men, and where Two-Face later says that Rachel died.

quote:

The only way "You'll only have time to save one of them." works is if the individual is isolated. Barring near omniscient timing and knowledge of the relative speed abilities, I don't see how the Joker could have set up the timing that way. The cops could have gotten to Dent or, better yet, radioed to someone closer to the area - heck, both areas.

I think the Joker was assuming that Batman could reach his location faster than the police. I mean, wouldn't you think so? We've seen the lengths that he goes to when he's in a hurry to get somewhere. The police won't drive through or on top of buildings, or blast parked cars and other barriers out of their way.

Also, it really didn't matter. Screwing with Batman was just a bonus. Remember, his real goal was to keep everyone busy while he busted out with Lau. He got Batman and a lot of cops far away from the station when it was time for him to make his escape. It didn't matter who was or wasn't saved.

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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Aris Katsaris:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Why do people think Batman would go to to save Rachel?

Because he said in the movie he was going for Rachel, and some of us choose to actually comment on what we actually saw in the movie.

Whether we believe that to be the right choice or not is besides the point. He SAID he was going for Rachel. Full-stop.

quote:
Are we so used to love trumping all other concerns that we expect Batman to make the same kind of choice as leading men in romantic comedies?

No, some of us are merely used to listening to the evidence of our own ears. [/QB]
I find your response to my ill-considered post appropriate.

I did start with the premise that what Batman exclaimed as he left the station was inaudible (it was to me, after all) but I also speculated inappropriately on people's motivations, and I came across as insulting and rude. I'm sorry.

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npbeers
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This can finally be put to rest.... Warner Brothers has posted the Dark Knight script online:

http://warnerbros2008.warnerbros.com/assets/images/TheDarkKnight_Script.pdf

"DENT: NO! Not me... Why did you come for
me?!

Batman STARES at Dent. The Joker lied."

I am actually a bit disappointed by this... I agree with OSC that the movie I thought I saw was better than the script... but oh well...

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scifibum
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Yeah, I liked mine better too, but I decided people had a good argument that Batman was trying to save Rachel.

However, I've decided the real issue was the decision to have Bale growl when wearing the suit. If he talked normally the rest of us would have understood what he said as he was leaving the station. Even without that, though, the "I can't breathe through my nose" guttural muttering was the worst flaw in the film. Other characters should have been cracking up when he was talking like that.

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Steve_G
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It was put to rest for me when I saw it in the theatre, because the only theatre showing it at the time we could watch that night had subtitles for the hearing impaired. It was distracting, because we ended up reading everything even though we could hear just fine. So I knew exactly what was said even when the voices were overpowered by the music as is often the case in movies.
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The Black Pearl
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I think I heard every line in the movie. And everyone concludes batman was making the "cliche" choice when he just as likely could have based his choice on the distance and terrain from the station and the two locations. It'd be pretty convenient for the mob to have control of two structures precisely the same distance relative to the station, and they could've held Joker somewhere else for all anyone knew.
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npbeers
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In the script Batman actually doesn't say "Rachel" as Bale seems to have growled... Instead Batman says "Dent knew the risks"...

That tells us a bit about his motivation...

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The Black Pearl
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That line doesnt even make sense.
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AchillesHeel
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While the growling is extremely odd, if you go back and watch George Clooneys portrail of the caped crusader, you'll find that he did not have a single bit of Batman in his character just alot of Bruce Wayne. In my opinion, Bale has been the first actor to play both sides of the role fairly and accuratly, whereas Kilmer was a good Batman (but a very moody, quiet and removed Bruce Wayne) and everyone else was just billionaire playboys in rubber suits... with nipples..... ew.
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