posted
ludosti, I don't think I'll ever believe that his behavior is his choice or his actions. Children with that severe of neglect shouldn't be "blamed" for their actions. Punished, but not blamed. Once they cross that line and are proven to be a danger to society, they need to be jailed or institutionalized, but I don't think their actions are their "choice" or under their control.
quote:Disrupted and anxious attachment not only leads to emotional and social problems, but also results in biochemical consequences in the developing brain. Infants raised without loving touch and security have abnormally high levels of stress hormones, which can impair the growth and development of their brains and bodies. The neurobiological consequences of emotional neglect can leave children behaviorally disordered, depressed, apathetic, slow to learn, and prone to chronic illness. Compared to securely attached children, attachment disordered children are significantly more likely to be aggressive, disruptive and antisocial.
Disruption of attachment during the crucial first three years can lead to what has been called "affectionless psychopathy", the inability to form meaningful emotional relationships, coupled with chronic anger, poor impulse control, and a lack of remorse.
Somehow, it doesn't seem fair to hold them accountable for their actions when their brains are totally screwed up before they can even speak.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I left out the "on some level" I thought I had put in there. I don't know that there's a point when a person can be *never* be held responsible for their choices and actions.
I understand that he is a product of those disasters during his first few crucial years. That's what make me so angry - that he never really had a chance. But it happened, and now he will suffer for the rest of his life. I also feel bad for his mother, having been young, homeless, and so screwed up. It is just a trajedy all around.
posted
Kayla, I think after a certain point in a person's life we have to choose to live as if we believe that people are in control of their own actions, even if sometimes this is clearly not the case. If we don't do this, I think the consequences for society are disastrous, as people cease trying to control their impulses and instead accept excuses for their own behavior. I think we have seen an epidemic of this in the last ten or fifteen years. And I think that, oddly enough, incidents of abuse and victimization seem to go up the more willing we are as a society to forgive abusive actions based on the excuse that someone is not in control of his or her actions.
In another thread, you said that some victimizers deserve extreme punishment in retaliation for the horrible hurt they inflict on others. (And I agree with you.) But if you now say that some people can't be held accountable for their actions, not because they are insane in any clinical sense, but because they have behavior disorders caused by abuse they suffered at the hands of other people . . . well, don't you see that many if not most (if not all) of the victimizers you feel must be punished can point back to someone who first victimized them, harming their ability to control their actions?
This hits very close to home because Cor and I adopted two special needs kids. We have done our best to provide a good and loving home, with structure and expectations. And yet we are finding, as our kids start kindergarten, that they are facing a great deal of frustration because of their developmental delays, and one of our daughters is acting out quite severely. When I clicked on that link you just gave, a lot of those symptoms hit pretty close to home. There are a lot of valid reasons for her behavior, including being separated from her birth mother at birth, and then being separated from her foster parents to come live with us, and also her frustration over being in a much more demanding setting than she's ever been in before, with teachers expecting her to understand things she simply does not understand. And hey, some of her problems may also be rooted in some failure on our part, despite our attempts to be the best parents we know how to be. Now, given that there are reasons why she may be predisposed to act a certain way, should we assume that she cannot control her actions, and throw in the towel? Should we be accepting of whatever she does? Will we prepare her to live in society by doing this? Or should we, with an awareness of the factors leading up to her behavior, nevertheless try to teach her to be in control of it?
I don't believe we can accept the position that anyone past the age of reason who is not clinically insane is not in control of his or her actions. We can recognize predispositions, and try to tailor our strategies to an awareness of them, but we can't absolve people of responsibility for their actions simply because they were victims.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Icky, you and I are talking about two different things. Unless your girls were left in one of those Romanian orphanages where they were tied to cribs till they were five, I don't think they will suffer the same type of consequences. I could be wrong. The sever attachment disorders I'm talking about are kids that are more akin to aliens than humans. The ones that, by the time they are 8 or so, have already tried to kill their adoptive parents with a knife in their sleep. These kids are so screwed up that their brains are literally incapable of coherent thought and action. While I think that they should be removed from society, I also think they are not "responsible" for their actions. Not anymore than an infant who cries in the middle of the night when his diaper is wet and he's hungry.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that although they need to be treated like criminal or mental patients, I don't think that they should be "blamed" for their behavior. It would be like blaming someone for walking with a limp when they were missing a leg.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I saw one kid like Kayla is describing come through the group home where I worked.
She was...varelse. She couldn't understand us or us understand her and she DID try to kill people. With no reason.
It's hard to explain. This kid was totally devoid of emotion, but it wasn't exactly that, either. She was devoid of SOMEthing. I just can't put my finger on it.
And she was sent to a residential school for kids in her boat.
But it was the best place for her. She'd busted out of two adoptive placements and a slew of specialized foster homes.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Okay, I see. My kids aren't as severe as that. What brought them to my mind was that you brought up reactive attachment disorder, and many if not most kids in state custody have this. I'm beginning to be afraid that at least one of my kids does. But no, it's not as bad as the situation you describe.
I would say that being Varelse is essentially the same as being clinically insane, and so I did leave an "out" for this situation. But I think the rest of the time, when people are capable of coherent thought and action, it's important to hold them responsible for their actions, even when there is a legitimate reason to believe that some trauma or disorder contributed to their predisposition to act in a certain way.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I agree, Icky. I saw lots and lots of kids go through the group home and only one so severe as to need residential care because she could be described as "varelse."
The rest we always held responsible for their actions. We processed as well, looking at what actions and feelings lead up to acting out. Most times, the kids really do want to please you but have all these emotions all stirred up and have NO idea what to do with them. So they act out.
Or they need attention and only know how to get it by getting negative attention. Sometimes, they just want a hug, but don't know how to ask for one.
Some need consistency and structure to make them feel safe and secure.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
The lead investigator was shot while allegedly robbing a bank? That seems odd. The juror were, apparently, too stupid to figure out that they were convicting him of 5 counts of rape. I have no idea what they thought they were doing, but half the jury seems to have changed their minds. And this guy isn't a judge. I mean, he is but come on. New Mexico has some screwed up laws. I had no idea this was going on. "The city council appointed a 33-year-old X-ray technician with no previous legal experience (municipal judges in New Mexico aren't required to have law degrees) as an interim judge."
Seriously? An e-ray technician is a judge? Man, next thing you know, the kid pumping my gas will be presiding over a murder trial.
However, considering the quality of judges they seem to have, and considering the fact that for those particular crimes, he could have gotten 50 years, I think the fact that he could be out on the streets in 18 months is so horrifying as to be amusing. Remind me that I never want to go anywhere near New Mexico.
quote: A 12-year-old girl was beaten into a coma by a group of other girls and women after she kissed the boyfriend of another girl on a dare, police said.
Three adult women and two teenage girls have been charged in the beating of Nicole Townes, who remained in a coma Wednesday more than a week after the attack at a February 28 party.
posted
If this had only involved teens, I would be horrified enough. But there were two adults (and I used the term in the chronological sense only) involved?? In beating a child? Over a kiss?
posted
The world would be a much better place if I was given a flame thrower and license to use it as I saw fit.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Someone please tell me how a woman could be 7 months pregnant with twins and not know it. Did she think babies are born knowing how to swim?
Posts: 399 | Registered: Sep 2002
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You have to seriously wonder about the sanity of someone like that. The alternative is too depressing. Posts: 1996 | Registered: Feb 2004
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My cousin claimed she didn't know she was pregnant until the baby was born. The really sad thing is, I think she may actually BE that dense.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I just don't even know what to say about that, it is just so far outside of my ability to consider that someone could do that.
Posts: 472 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Supposedly, after she found her newborn dead, she started drinking steadily. That's one way to react I suppose. The other boy reportedly died shortly thereafter. I wondered (because this story has been on the news here locally heavily for several days) if the boys had fetal alcohol syndrome considering the obvious alcoholism of their mother. I can't understand how it got to the point that it could happen. Someone *had* to know about the boys neglect since they were all three chronically malnutreated.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Stories like that hit me so much more now that I've got a kid. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking of it. My wife can't even watch the news anymore when they do a story about things like this.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I wonder why she even bothered to name her children.
I always look at the names and think, "Was this random? Did she actually care about the children so much that she wanted to bestow these particular names, or did she just throw out the first thing that came to mind?"
Zan: I know. A few months ago a 16-year-old boy drowned in Tucson while he was fishing and when they showed his face on the news I just freaked. And that wasn't even a case of abuse or anything.
posted
Stories like these are part of the reason I no longer watch or even really read the news anymore. It makes me too sad. So, my sources for news now basically are my husband and Hatrack.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Sorry to prevent you from avoiding it then, Ludosti.
I don't watch the evening news either, and sensationalistic, horrific stories are a big reason why. I still keep informed, but not that way.
Zan, this made me sick to read, too. Stories like that just bring tears to my eyes.
She let one kid die so she drank herself into a stupor. Never mind the other two kids in the house. F*cking evil. Did you see her picture? She sure wasn't malnourished.
posted
It is fun naming things, just like it is fun dressing up cute little dolls. That is probably about as much thought as she put into it.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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If you were the attorney that had been provided by the state in a case like this, how would you not just go, "You're pretty much screwed. Let's just try to get jail time instead of The Chair."
"On the other hand, nevermind. Let's get you that Chair."
(You'd at least have to think it.)
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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Remember, too, that Social Services had apparently visited her on a number of occasions. From the sketchy details in the story, one of the visits sounded like it had been somewhat recent and that all of the children had been suffering from malnourishment for some time.
They also mention that they were having problems finding the report in question. Could this incident have happened because one social worker lost the paperwork on their desk because of either laziness or too heavy of a workload?
From Florida to Illinois to this one over the last year, we're beginning to see some problems with our social services system. Is it at the breaking point, or has it come to a place where apathy is not rare among the employees anymore?
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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At least you can hope for the chair. Canada doesn't, and it pisses me off. And I can think of a whole lot of people who deserve to die a bloody painful long drawn out death. Like these people.Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I'd say overworked and not apathetic. Most social service case workers have caseloads three times what they should be. New Hampshire has been on a hiring freeze for years and so has not had enough social service folks for a long time.
Please don't blame the workers themselves. Blame the system, as the system doesn't place enough value on the lives of children to give enough funding to employ the proper amount of some of those who are supposed to protect them.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Children with reactive attachment disorder are not always as severaly disordered as some of those described in this thread, but even those who are can be healed. It's a difficult process because therapy is usually dependent upon trust, at some level, and this is the very thing that these kids don't have. radkid.org
Posts: 7 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Why, oh why, do these people have foster children if they think they themselves are a danger to them?
Posts: 399 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Police said no charges had been filed against the parents. "Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the protection of the children from themselves and from each other," said Sommers. "They thought there was circumstances with these children that warranted the cages at night," Sommers added, but he would not go into details of what those circumstances were.
posted
I would like to know how they managed to get their hands on ELEVEN innocent children? Did they never get home visits?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I found this quote in an AP story on AOL News:
quote:"We're still trying to figure out what happened in that home," Dumbeck said Tuesday. "We don't have any indication at this point that there was any abuse."
Dumbeck is identified earlier in the story as Erich Dumbeck, director of the Huron County Department of Job and Family Services.
Isn't making kids sleep in cages, by definition, abuse? And why cannot the director of Family Services figure that out? Seems fairly obvious to me.
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Never mind the other two kids in the house. F*cking evil. Did you see her picture? She sure wasn't malnourished.
