posted
It was as if I had just caught a glimpse of God, bending over to plant the Tree of Knowledge: she said she'd had an unbelievably sad day. It was one of the most unfair things I've ever heard--given the timing, of course. Where moments before she was the sole cause of my own, endless sadness, she waited there in my inbox with resignation and exhaustion. I had an unbelievably sad day. God piles some dirt on the Seeds of Knowledge.
In that moment I did something I've never done before. For some insane reason I exposed myself, I became vulnerable and I let go. This for my worst enemy. One moment she is destroying me and the next minute I am giving her access to my soul.
And I have spent the last twenty-four hours trying to figure out what that meant.
But I'm getting ahead of myself. I am of course referring to the undisclosed conclusion to this thread.
First and foremost, I want to apologize. I won't tell you why just yet, but I feel that it would be best to start from that frame of mind in the hopes that my words in this post may be better received than those in the aforementioned thread. It started with an email I received from another hatracker, whom I will not name. In response to one of my posts, they wrote me:
quote:Caleb:
Your point is well taken when you say that my attitude against homosexual marriages hurts many homosexuals. I accept that as the truth, and I am sorry for that pain.
I don't want to cause this hurt, and I don't know exactly what to say, but I will try to explain why I do it.
I know that God loves all of his children. All of them.
I know in my heart that allowing homosexual marriages will cause too much damage to our society in the long term. It will cause too much pain and hurt in the society at large, IMHO.
I will do anything to help and protect homosexuals, short of allowing their marriage. I will do anything to prevent discrimination against homosexuals.
My two best friends in high school were homosexual lovers. I didn't know it at the time, and I am sad that they felt I was not the type of friend that they could trust with that knowledge at the time. I could have been so trusted.
We all have homosexual friends. Some of us can be trusted with that knowledge, and some of us can't. I hope that I am always the type of friend that can be trusted.
I know this is not much. But it is all I have to give. I do not want to cause harm, but I just feel that allowing homosexual marriage will cause even MORE harm to society at large (again, IMHO). I am sorry that homosexuals have to bear the pain of "the greater good" for society.
Here was an honest and heartfelt--compassionate, even--response to my charges. I was baffled. I didn't know how to respond. The author of that passage clearly shows remorse for the necessity of their opinion. They were apologizing for something they felt had to be done, because they were aware of what the ramifications were for the hopes, wishes and dreams that are hanging in the balance of this debate. And yet at the same time this message really irritated me.
Because it came from the one mindset that can never be moved:
quote:I know in my heart.
This characterization of the author's knowledge upset me on more than one level. Aside from the inherent inability to change that this qualification suggests, the author is communicating quite clearly that their knowledge of the subject matter being discussed is derived from an unquestionable source. To say that you know it in your heart is the same as saying 'this is the truth'. The author says this and magically transforms their opinion into fact. Facts cannot be rebutted. You cannot communicate, compromise or negotiate with facts.
Then, the author qualified their opinions twice more; this time adding that their words were merely 'in my humble opinion'. I couldn't find anything humble about their opinion. I'd just been told that my position was wrong, and that their own perspective--they knew it in their heart--had a zero percent margin of error.
And yet the author is writing, not from arrogance, but compassion.
I thought about this for a long time. Of course I already understood that certain sects of Christianity were by definition diametrically opposed to all things homosexual, but for some reason I had always conceived of that as a matter of will. This person regretted the harm that their view would necessarily perpetuate. They stick to their guns not because they will themselves to do it, but because they are completely obedient to their faith. If they did not obey their faith, it would be no faith at all.
And so I came to realize once again--for this is a lesson we often learn several times--that faith makes the other side's point of view as real to them as my own view is to me. Multiple realities exist. Suddenly the absurdity of having these discussions in the hopes of making progress hit me right in the face. I'm never going to change my mind on gay marriage. Why on Earth would I expect anyone else to change theirs? Sure I believe I'm right and they're wrong, but that's exactly what they think, too. It becomes a never-ending circle of disagreement. It's called an impasse.
But I believe so passionately in this cause that I could not let their view go unchallenged. So I had to approach the issue from another angle. I would not discuss the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality. I would not discuss the definition of morality, or whether or not it could be legislated. None of these black and white issues concerned me anymore, because they were black and white issues. And I understood that minds were not going to change (at least, those that were based on faith--my own included), because they couldn't change.
I had to find a way to admit this and prevail at the same time, or my efforts were pointless. I had to challenge their view for the sake of the cause, not for the sake of turning them. It's the only option that was still available to me.
I chose to speak against this Christian view by capitalizing on the regrets described above. I wondered whether or not there was even room for regret in true obedience. I wondered if some of the Christians holding this view of homosexual marriage might be as compassionate towards those their views oppress as they claim they are when they say that they 'love the sinner'. The question fascinated me. I know a lot of Christians that are good to the core. I knew that many would be able to see homosexuals as real people long enough to understand how this position has direct negative impacts to their lives and their livelihoods. And yes, their social status.
That's my ace-in-the-hole, I said to myself. The one ugly truth that they cannot escape is that their position advocates crushing the dreams--and the freedoms, depending on how you personally define freedoms--of twenty million Americans.
I wanted to emphasize how their position inflicts real suffering on other people, because I didn't think there could be an adequate response to that. I'm referring of course to my giant diatribe on the fifth page of the aforementioned thread. I decided that if they weren't ever going to change their minds, and if their minds were to be the sole cause of this discrimination--and make no mistake; our society is so divided on this issue that everyone's opinion matters--then I would be the one to point my finger in their collective face and make them accept responsibility for the division and the turmoil that their position would necessitate. It had to be done. If they could allow other people to pay the price of their worldview, they could at least take the blame for it.
And then I remembered the compassion in that email, misguided as I felt it was. It made me angry to realize that they were apologizing for their view, and in some way I felt them reaching out for recognition that they really did care about the pain they caused. The author would slap twenty million homosexuals in the face and then apologize that it had to be done. The hypocrisy of this was very aggravating to me. Being sorry wasn't good enough. Regrets weren't good enough. And the irony implicit in an anti-homosexual worldview trying to apologize for itself because it has no other choice was simply infuriating. All the sudden my opponents were no longer people just discussing an issue. They were real people with real power, who would intend to use that power to harm the lives of American homosexuals. They became enemies.
So that's the setup. That's how I came to the point of making a blanket post towards anti-homosexual Christianity, and specifically those of you on hatrack that fit that description. And that's why I came out kicking and punching: because I'm angry. I'm angry at the injustice. I'm angry at the inequality. I'm angry that they aren't even able to define the dangers that they would avoid at the cost of twenty million other people's happiness. Every layer just seems more and more unjust to me.
Here's where that apology comes in. I'm sorry that I couldn't have said all these things more effectively in the first place. It's all about the anger factor. You see, I used my anger and my sense of injustice to write those posts. And where it was partially my intent to 'get in their face' about it, I did not intend to be interpreted as an ass while I did it.
But I attacked them where it hurts and so of course they were going to tear me to shreds. I spent nearly two days fielding insults and deliberate misinterpretations from other hatrackers. I kept getting angrier and angrier, too, because I had just accused them of arrogance and injustice; and rather than have them respond to those allegations, they responded to every word I said with, indeed, arrogance and injustice. Worse, I felt that there were many hatrackers who would agree with the things I was saying, but nevertheless left me to defend myself--an impossible task with hatrack being as large as it is these days--without so much as an 'I agree'. There were a few posters that came to my defense, and I am very grateful for their presence and support. And it's not like I expect the liberals and the conservatives to always stick by each other and line up together for battles; it's more that I was being treated so unjustly that I would have thought a few of you might have tried to stand up for--or with--me.
But I can't blame anyone for avoiding that conversation. Why join the fight when that just makes you another target for these kinds of responses?
Anyway, I accept part of the blame for bringing this ridicule upon myself. I could just as easily have changed a few words around and made my post--which I still agree with--less offensive. Again though, I felt that part of my purpose was to shock and offend these Christians--and any onlookers--into realizing the reality of their position rather than the doctrine of their position. Because everyone already knows--in their hearts--that they're not going to change their minds. I didn't care about proving them wrong anymore because I knew it couldn't be done. All I cared about was taking them to the logical end of their conclusions and forcing them to live with it.
See, the problem is that I lost respect. I lost my respect for these other views. I decided that the things they were saying in regards to homosexuals, and specifically their views on how they ought to be treated differently from everyone else, were so offensive and unsubstantiated that their opinions simply did not warrant respect. On a certain level I still feel that way. They are by definition unable to change, yet they have the power to inflict pain on other people without so much as asking their permission. I saw so much hypocrisy in their position that I could no longer pretend to respectfully disagree with them. What I didn't realize is that I had translated that into disrespecting them, which is much different than simply a lack of respect.
On the other hand, I was misquoted and misrepresented so thoroughly that I kept getting angrier and angrier; each step was blinding me further to my own attitude, which to me became more and more justified with every passing post. They were accusing me of putting words in people's mouths--though in fact I did no such thing--even while stripping portions of my posts and quoting them incompletely, or reemphasizing things I had said to make them appear to say something entirely different. And then, worst of all, katharina simply left the thread. Well, she didn't just leave. First she quoted two things that I had said quite out of context to make me look really bad, then said "I'm done" as if she needed to spike her football in the end zone of the argument. It was like "I win, see you later."
That pissed me off most of all. It was so very unfair that she wouldn't let me respond. That she had decided my posts were no longer worth even reading. That she would behave in this way after deliberately hurting me in front of my entire community was unbearable. So I found myself writing her an email because I had to at least let her know how much pain she had caused me. Once again I took it as my place to blame the Christian for hurting other people.
As I'm sure you can imagine, the email dialogue that ensued differed from the thread version only in its anonymity. Though it became clear to me that kat's consistent misconstrual of things that I had said--sometimes directly after I said them, even--was not necessarily a matter of choice for her, either. She had been so offended by me that she couldn't possibly understand what I really meant. And when I tried to explain this to her she still disregarded my words in favor of other meanings that she invented on the fly. But I would not give in. I could not give in. I kept replying and replying, like the English-speaking foreigner that raises their voice as if that would increase the likelihood of comprehension. And eventually she kind of gave up. She said to me in that tired voice that she had had an unbelievably sad day. She just wanted to postpone the discussion for later, because she had had an unbelievably sad day.
It was as if I had caught a glimpse of God, walking away from the Tree of Knowledge and leaving me there to lie under it, all by myself and with nothing to eat. That's what it felt like. That's how unfair it was to me. And in spite of that I started to do something that I didn't even understand. I did for her what I would never have done for someone I didn't trust with my life.
I had to choose between the waters of memory and the waters of oblivion. And though I couldn't think of any battle anywhere where it made sense to give your worst enemy your greatest weakness, some part of me knew that it needed to be done. I told her that she didn't even know what unbelievable sadness was. I told her that I was one of the people she wanted to discriminate against.
And like I said, I've spent the last twenty-four hours trying to understand what that meant. Why it was that I made that move at that moment.
Her immediate response was to shower me with apologies. It was like she suddenly understood why I was so upset, and she couldn't bear having said the things she said. At the same time, there was very little she could say other than 'I'm sorry', which I had already determined wasn't good enough. Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual. Here again I'm being treated differently for reasons I cannot control. And even though I much preferred the apologetic kat to the venomous one I had come to know, it really bothered me. None of my opinions had changed. Nothing that I had said over the last two days became any truer or any more false as a result of my admission. And yet it made all the difference in the world for getting her to understand what I was saying.
That's the whole reason I don't come out to people unless it's necessary, or unless I am close to them. I don't want to be different. I don't want people to have some preconceived notion of who I am, especially based on such a hot-button issue. When you live and grow up in the Midwest, it's frankly a matter of convenience to keep such a thing in the smallest circle of awareness as possible. Hell, at times it's a matter of safety, too. It's even a matter of job security for some. And looking over that thread, it's a matter of friendship, too. I know that there are those who will not be able to be as open with me as they were before reading this post. That makes me sad.
At the same time I think I know now what it means that I opened my wounds to the person who had so recently been facilitating them: I couldn't be understood until it was known where I was coming from. Of course, I'm not even sure now that I was understood, but it's plain that she has at least reconsidered some of my meanings. It is this realization that leads to the post now in front of you.
I'm here to tell you what I think of your opinions, and why I think they're so appalling. As succinctly as I can.
To those of you who would strip my future away from me:
Are you going to apologize to my people? Are you going to look them in the eye and say that they do not deserve the same rights as you have? Are you going to feel sorry for asking them to bear the burden of your beliefs, especially when you have so little evidence to support them? Each of us is born into realities not of our own choosing. Do you have any remorse at all for discriminating against this particular reality? Are you willing to say to me--not the internet personality that argues for human rights, but the Caleb Varns who works hard every day just like you do to try and accomplish something good in this world--are you willing to say to me that I do not have a place in your society? Can you admit that you and you alone are the cause for that discrimination?
And what does it say about your beliefs if you have any regrets for believing them?
Jon Boy:
I promised you that I would respond to your post, and I haven't forgotten that promise. When you pointed out that the Church's allowance of divorce doesn't necessarily denigrate the Church's reverence for marriage, you were absolutely correct. However, I do feel that the prominence of divorce, not in your own church specifically, but in the Church-at-large, tells a much different story. But I appreciate that you took the time to take one of my ideas and respond to it. I appreciate it more than you know, even if I was too busy to answer you yesterday.
Everyone:
Now I come to the place where this must end. I have spent the last of the energy I had to spare on hatrack. I'm going to leave because I need to spend some time away from this place. I need to spend some time away from the constant need to justify, not just my opinions, but my very identity.
Of course I will not be gone forever. No one really is, are they? Besides, I really do want to provide a Thanksgiving celebration for any hatracker that has no other place to go, so I will be coming back later to try and set that up. Also I committed to participating in twinky's original music contest, and I hope to follow through on that as well. But one thing I think I can say for sure is that I doubt I'm ever going to participate too heavily in serious discussions around here anymore. Others can do so much better than I, and the costs are far too great for the negligible differences I've made in the hearts of those whom I can only hope will one day think of me as a brother rather than a social deviant.
Most of you will know that, even given the length of this post, the true story is ten times more complicated than what I was able to communicate. And each story contains within it stories upon stories upon stories. Orson Scott Card once wrote that the truth is like an onion; layers upon layers of different meanings. Different realities, one might say. I feel that there's wisdom in this metaphor, and I hope that enough of you will keep peeling back the layers of our human story that perhaps, one day in the future, equality will not only be self-evident; it will be ubiquitous.
I found out exactly 20 seconds ago as I read your post. I thought your vigourous defense of the issue and the subsequent bit was an academic discussion, concerning an issue that we both had thoughts and opinions about but were not invested in personally.
Did I miss something? Was I supposed to know? I didn't know. It was like discussing communism. An issue, but not a personal one.
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quote:Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual.
I apologized because the academic discussion got out of hand. I was remorseful because, while I was teasing, you were taking this more seriously and it wasn't fair. I did not know it was not a purely acadmic discussion.
And I'm sorry. You're right - if I'd known, that would change everything.
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I didn't apologize because you told me. I apologized because you said that I'd almost made you cry. Until I read that, I hadn't realized you were that upset about it.
Oh my stars. *quiet* I don't know what to do.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Unbelieveable Kat. Did you not even read the e-mail? Or am I misinterpreting what you just said? How could he have told you last night and you just found out "20 seconds ago?"
Of course, my other opinions are still in your Kasie vs. Kat thread.
Caleb, sweetie, you know I love you, anyway you are. You also realize that my jumping in to save you from being outed by Kasie makes me (who's met you in real life!) look like a complete idiot.
Yeah, right, who am I kidding? Like I don't make myself look like a dork on a daily basis without your help.
Wanna come over this weekend? Dinner? Cards? (Playing, not Kristine, Scott, Geoff or Em, though if in the area, I suppose they could come, too. )
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posted
That's just awesome. I preach civility, but Caleb has just modeled it better than I ever could.
I wish more of my people could act in the same way [I'm not talking about Hatrack people here -- Mormons in general]. I feel that too many have become too glib in their beliefs.
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posted
Oh God. Please don't let this happen again.
In college, I was part of a children's drama troupe. It was religiously based, and I was religious at the time. We were all very close. And then one of the guys came out, and he was ostracized before I ever heard word about it. I never even got the chance to say goodbye, to be a friend, to sit in silence with his sadness. Needless to say, it wasn't very long before I too left the group.
If this is what God wants, I'd rather go to Hell.
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posted
Caleb, you are one of the most important people in my life. I love who you are! I know how much this has hurt you and it hurts me equally to feel your pain.
"Heroes can come and go, but you are my heart and soul. My love for you could heal the world, if I had the words."
Remember that brother.
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I want to respond to some things in your post, Caleb, but I'm going to take some time and think about it first. I just want to talk about some of the more tangential issues like divorce and how Christians are supposed to deal with their beliefs about homosexuality. Maybe I'll post later. Maybe I won't post at all.
But I'd like to say that I truly am sorry that I hurt and offended you, Caleb. You're obviously in pain, and I don't think there's anything I can do to make things better.
We'll be here waiting for you when you get back, Caleb.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I knew, and it's precisely why I did not get involved in the discussion because my friend Caleb is important to me.
This may not be the place to say this, but I feel I must.
I am a Christian who believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. I will not change my view, because I am committed to my faith, and my faith is an integral part of me.
I will not apologize for my view, because I can't. It would be false, and a betrayal of my own core beliefs to pretend that I am ashamed of "how I must feel" on this issue.
Does that make sense?
I know many of you scoff at "hate the sin, love the sinner" and think no one can possibly do that. You're wrong. I've wrapped my arms around a woman who aborted a child, and told her I loved her, even though I felt she had committed a terrible sin. I've told homosexuals I am and would be their friend, and meant it.
Everyone of my friends is a sinner. I am a sinner. My children are sinners. We all are. If I can't love people who sin, then I cannot love.
The problem with having my view, is I can't express it without being called a bigot or a hate-mongerer. I'm sure some of you here will call me that.
If you do, remember my words here - I am a follower of Christ, and I will follow Him in all that I do. No matter how unpopular my opinions may be, they are still mine and as Caleb has said - I cannot change them without betraying myself and my faith and that I will not do. I would die for my faith, before I would abandon it or try to apologize for it.
It's a shame that good hearted, caring people like Caleb and kat and me can become so polarized on something. But asking kat or me to give up what we believe and say it's all right to honor and uphold something that our beliefs tell us is a sin is unfair. You can't tell her or me we should support homosexual marriage because it's the politically correct thing to do and expect that we will.
Likewise, much as it pains me (and I mean that, I've cried over that thread, and anguished over how to respond) I do, for the sake of my beliefs, have to take a stand that will hurt people I care about, namely Karl Ed and Caleb.
I can't apologize for what I believe. But I can hope and pray that in time, things will change. And I can hope and pray that people will accept it when I say I can love them and care for them, without agreeing with their lifestyle.
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Thanks for your trust and your passion and your view on the world.
The internet is a wonderous place where people can roam around without being gay or straight, black or white, American or French or Man or Woman. We hide in our shells of annonimity and meet on only the mental planes.
Hatrack is a refuge from that annonimity. Here some many people have opened up those shells and dared to show bits of themselves we could never see otherwise.
Some of these have been very personal, very risky or very troubling. Whenever that happens I am moved that others are so brave and daring. Your's has been worthy of a Thanks.
Please come back soon. It won't be the same around here without you.
{edit to clarify. I realized my thread could be read that your coming out could be considered troubling. Sorry. Your coming out is personal and risky. Some of the other posts like this, involving abuse, etc, I found troubling}
posted
Go. Take some time to reflect. Etc. Come back soon.
The problem with these discussions (like so many before them) is that we never know when to quit. The basic premise that we are all good people here somehow seems to mean that we should all agree. And we can't.
I just got through reopening the same issues on that same thread, for example. Why? Because I saw something in someone else's post that just incensed me.
It happens. You got angry.
And, to my mental state right now, you got angry with good reason.
I also didn't realize you were gay. It makes no difference, other than I can understand how you might have a more vested interest in the discussion than most of the rest of us. (+/- 10%).
But the thing that worries me most is how it affects you. Because we never solve anything in these discussions and I figured everyone knew that by now. The real goal is sharing a different point of view so that, maybe, the other person won't just spout off pure nonsense the next time. It might still be nonsense, but it'll be less pure...
And that goes for all of us! Doesn't it?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Thanksgiving thing. It will be a welcome retreat from some stuff I'd rather not go into just now. But believe me, I can think of nothing more enjoyable than having a meal with some of my Hatrack friends.
But there is something close. And that's having discussions with my Hatrack friends. Even when I think they are harmfully wrong in their opinions.
I know you'll be back fairly soon. I hope you can find the place in yourself that curbs the anger before it starts. Because this nonsense will come up again and again. It just never stops.
So it requires those of us who can find a less angry path to choose it for ourselves.
I'm working on that too.
It doesn't mean I'm not angry. It just means I find a different way (sometimes) to get the message out about what I really think of the other person's opinion.
It's not possible to be 100% in control of ones emotions. But it is possible, sometimes, to use them to good effect.
posted
((((kat))) Don't feel like an idiot. If you didn't know, then you didn't know. It's done now.
(((caleb))) I've written and talked to you before on this issue, and I hoped you would continue to talk to me about it. You've chosen not to, and I can honestly understand. Whether you believe me or not I DO care very much about you.
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posted
Caleb- I think that the reason Kat's attitude toward you changed with your revelation because there is an intrinsically different feel to debating about a given group of people and debating with a given group. I think that there is no real logic to such a reaction, but fnonetheless it is no less real.
You and I have agreed on perhaps two things in all the time we have been at Hatrack, and those two were probably on fluff threads, but for all of that I still wouldn't like to see you leave Hatrack. I know what you mean about time away, though. I have been pretty much just a lurker for a good while until a recent interesting thread or two. I hope that your time away is good and I look forward to arguing some more with you in the future.
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I was afraid when I saw the title that this was going to be a goodbye thread. And I’ve rarely in my life wanted so badly to be wrong.
Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
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I'm not sure how you'll take this coming from me, I'm not exactly an authority, and I don't want to sound belittling or anything -- but I'm really proud of you. And I really admire you. That took guts, man. God, your life takes guts. If you ever find your way to Washington, D.C., please, please look me up.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I just got the revelation. I got it when I read this thread.
Good hell. I'm glad I read the thread. I almost didn't.
I couldn't understand why he was still so upset at me, and why my apologizing was such a horrible event. Holy freaking crap.
I apologized because you said that I'd almost made you cry, and for whatever reason that was, that was when it moved beyond an academic discussion and I quit.
How did I miss that? Is it okay if I post the sentence?
quote:-----Original Message----- From: Kate Pilkington [mailto:katepilkington@yahoo.com] Sent: August 07, 2003 3:48 PM To: Varns, Caleb -- 7174 Subject: RE:
Caleb,
I've had an unbelievable sad day today. Maybe we could table the discussion for later.
Kat
"Varns, Caleb -- 7174" <caleb.varns@novastar1.com> wrote: Likewise. You've hurt my feelings more than you could possibly even understand, and it wasn't even necessary. I'm sitting at my office. I'm a 23 year old man. I feel like crying.
I apologize that I tend to lash out when someone hurts me.
We can table the discussion, sure. I'll still post, and I still don't forgive you. But time, as they say, heals wounds. Sometimes, though, time can make them worse. Like waiting to see what happens in Canada before admitting that I should have the same rights in the eyes of the law that you do.
-cjv
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kate Pilkington" <katepilkington@yahoo.com> | This is spam | Add to Address Book Subject: RE: To: "Varns, Caleb -- 7174" <caleb.varns@novastar1.com>
*hug* Caleb, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I did that. I'm sorry I said anything that you hurt that badly. I am sorry. What can I do to fix it. I'm so sorry.
I do like you. I'm glad you're there. I can't believe I was such a bitch I hurt your feelings like that. I'm so sorry.
Now I see it.
I'd missed it. How did I miss that? I must have stopped reading for details.
My apology was because I'd made him want to cry. I couldn't figure out why, but maybe it was an equally bad day.
Caleb and I had had a discussion before where he'd taken me to task for something that I felt he'd completely misunderstood - but the subject didn't have anything personal to do with either of us. It was happening again. Maybe we could do that later?
posted
Do you people not read what's written in front of you? I find this thread almost as disturbing as the one that inspired it. We seriously need to work on our communication skills.
Belle,
quote:If you didn't know, then you didn't know.
He told her. It's not like it was some big guessing game.
Jacare,
quote: I think that the reason Kat's attitude toward you changed with your revelation because there is an intrinsically different feel to debating about a given group of people and debating with a given group.
Kat didn't get the revelation. Caleb was mistaken in thinking that by writing it down and sending it to her, she had read it. So, when he originally made his post, he was under the impression that her attitude changed because of his "confession." Apparently, she just changed her attitude for no discernable reason.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
Isn't that what gay people are being told to do about their very lifestyles? Is it any wonder some of them get angry about it?
Until you can hug a woman who's had an abortion and not care about the act, I'll still say you aren't quite meeting my criteria for what it means to "hate the sin and love the sinner."
I just keep coming back to the state of most Christian faiths in this country's history. Many of them actually found scriptural support for slavery. Almost all, until very recently, found scriptural support for a ban against mixed marriages.
Frankly, it seems to argue to me that scriptural arguments are impermenant and not to be trusted.
So, when someone says they have a scriptural basis for any key decision in life, my gut reaction is to think that's nice, now what basis do you have for your decision?
I've come to the point where I find most of it completely invalid. The parts I find valid are Jesus' message of love and his injunction against judging one another. Oh, and how we ought to follow the golden rule.
I realize there are statements in there about how all of scripture is valid and should be treated as one unified lesson. But I don't buy it. I think that scripture has been perverted over the centuries both in interpretation and in the actual words now carried forward with such scrupulous exactitude.
Given that, Belle and I have both consciously stayed out of threads where this kind of thing comes up. It's just too upsetting to deal with and we never get anywhere with it anyway.
And I respect Belle a great deal for that.
And when I say that I envy other people's faith, I mean it.
But that doesn't mean that I can be silent either. Maybe I should stick to my own personal decision to do that.
But when my sense of justice is offended by a position that is based solely on religion, I just get all het up and feel like the person making those claims is in need of some education.
Wrong-headed, I know.
But there it is.
It can't be helped any more than a person of faith can help thinking that the rest of us should understand what they mean, even if we don't agree with it.
But we don't.
And we never will.
So, I'll retreat once again into the fluff threads, where people seem to like me, and don't worry to much about my own prejudices and ill-conceived notions.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Kayla, come on. She didn't know. She admits she missed it. You're going to rake her over the coals because she didn't focus on one particular sentence?
I believe her. She says she didn't realize, and she feels terrible now. Why are you so insistent on browbeating her?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I read it once, and I didn't get it. I didn't reread them because I usually don't.
No wonder... that explains a lot. That explains why he didn't respond to my apology. That explains just about everything. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Kat didn't get the revelation. Caleb was mistaken in thinking that by writing it down and sending it to her, she had read it. So, when he originally made his post, he was under the impression that her attitude changed because of his "confession." Apparently, she just changed her attitude for no discernable reason.
Kayla- it's that whole thing about others posting while you type thing. Despite where my post appeared I typed it when there was exactly one response to this thread.
At any rate, it is still true. Academic discussions are always free to go further afield than ones in which the participants have a more vested interest.
edit- for that matter, there are a half-dozen posts between yours and mine and there were none when I started typing.
posted
Do we have to turn this into another thread about whether gay marriage is right? I thought we already had at least one thread about that. Opening up that subject here is only going to hurt more feelings.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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You know, one of the factors that actually was a deciding factor in not applying for med school was that, through experience, I know that my judgement, comprehension, and general thinking go to hell when I'm tired. Good freaking thing I didn't.
If it helps at all, this is actually NOT the worst thing I've done when tired.
posted
Jon Boy, what makes you think a thread would ever stay on topic? Not that this thread is off topic, but I just thought I'd ask.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
You'd ask me never to speak for my faith? My opinion is unpopular by your standards so I'm not allowed to say it out loud?
I thought about starting a thread yesterday with the post I put above. Why? Because through prayer and meditation I realized that I wasn't willing to stand up and speak what I believed, then my faith was shallow.
You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
*thinks*
Truthfully, and this is coming from the heart, I don't think I will be welcome at hatrack anymore. I can't sit in the background and pretend to have no opinion on things. I've spent too much time staying silent about my thought and beliefs because I didn't want to "rock the boat." I wanted to be accepted and liked here at hatrack.
But you've just proven what I was afraid of. If I do speak out for my beliefs, I won't be tolerated.
It's okay. Nothing more than I expected would happen. But if the choice is between compromising so I can stay with an online community I've come to care about and being true to my faith, there's no choice at all.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Kayla, I know that no thread will ever stay totally on-topic (with the exception of stuff like the Last Post thread). However, I think that talking about the rights and wrongs of homosexual marriage here of all places is going to cause a lot more harm than good. That's all. I was just trying to be respectful of everyone's feelings.
Belle and Bob: Knock if off, please. I think everyone's a little too emotionally wound-up to have such a discussion right now. Belle, of course you're still accepted here. No one is asking you to hide your beliefs.
Kat: Beating yourself up over it will only make things worse. Please don't do that to yourself.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Not that it changes your postition at all, which was his point.
No, it doesn't.
It doesn't, and you aren't talking to someone who had everything turn out perfect and can't understand why anyone would do anything different, and you aren't talking to someone who's never had to give up something, and you aren't talking to someone who doesn't realize the consequences of her opinions.
It doesn't change that. But it changes in a million and five ways the way to say it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Belle, I think you missed his point. His point was that you want gays to stay in the closet. If that works for you, then by extention, should it be okay for someone to say to you, "hey Belle, your cool and all, but can you just keep your beliefs in the closet and not let anyone know about them? They are incredibly wrong. Don't get me wrong, we love you, we just believe your opinions are a sin."
This forum has a universal ban against speaking ill of someone's religion. For most people, faith is an unshakeable part of themselves, one they hold very dear.
I think homosexuals feel the same way about their homosexuality that many do about their religion.
Maybe, in the spirit of acceptance and tolerance, we should treat homosexuality the same way we treat religion.
[ August 08, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Caleb, I should have said something. I'm sorry. I stayed out of that thread for the reasons you put forth--because I didn't want to get the verbal crap kicked out of me. I should have defended you.
I've had conversations with Slash many times about the hypocrisies of Christianity. I hate that Christianity has us act towards homosexuals in such awful ways. That we're supposed to deny them unions and nuclear families. Screw that.
If you're a decent human being, you're a decent human being. If you don't hit kids or kick dogs and occasionally smile at a little ol' lady, then you're a decent sort. You try. How can a benevolent God send you to hell for being a decent, trying person? I don't think he can.
Anyway.
Caleb, I look forward to thanksgiving. I hope you can one day return.
And next time, I promise, I've got your back.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Belle, Caleb, Kayla, Bob and a lot of others-
Isn't it kind of a given that the opposition will, you know, oppose your views? That they will even be rather vehement sometimes? And that even sometimes a lot of people with an opposing viewpoint will say so at the same time?
It doesn't mean that your views aren't welcome, wanted whatever. It means that there happen to be a bunch of people who disagree with you. There are also almost certainly a fair few who agree. Lots of times they don't chime in because you said it better than they can. Caleb said that he felt like people were ganging up on him, yet when you look there were certainly a lot of folks throwing in their support- Karl, Bob, Tom, Synth just to name a few. I think that the reason it feels like ganging up is that the ideas that stick in your craw are the opposing ones. The agreeing posts don't tend to be really memorable unless that brought in something new.
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Her immediate response was to shower me with apologies. It was like she suddenly understood why I was so upset, and she couldn't bear having said the things she said. At the same time, there was very little she could say other than 'I'm sorry', which I had already determined wasn't good enough. Then I realized that she was showing remorse at her actions because I'm a homosexual. Here again I'm being treated differently for reasons I cannot control. And even though I much preferred the apologetic kat to the venomous one I had come to know, it really bothered me. None of my opinions had changed. Nothing that I had said over the last two days became any truer or any more false as a result of my admission. And yet it made all the difference in the world for getting her to understand what I was saying.
That's the whole reason I don't come out to people unless it's necessary, or unless I am close to them. I don't want to be different. I don't want people to have some preconceived notion of who I am, especially based on such a hot-button issue. When you live and grow up in the Midwest, it's frankly a matter of convenience to keep such a thing in the smallest circle of awareness as possible. Hell, at times it's a matter of safety, too. It's even a matter of job security for some. And looking over that thread, it's a matter of friendship, too. I know that there are those who will not be able to be as open with me as they were before reading this post. That makes me sad.
At the same time I think I know now what it means that I opened my wounds to the person who had so recently been facilitating them: I couldn't be understood until it was known where I was coming from. Of course, I'm not even sure now that I was understood, but it's plain that she has at least reconsidered some of my meanings. It is this realization that leads to the post now in front of you.
Caleb, I don't know if you are still reading this, but I wasn't apologizing because of what you told me. I was apologizing because, to my horror, you were upset enough you wanted to cry.
This is... this is so awful it is almost Thurberic.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Belle, honey, don't you leave. Hatrack sorely needs your perspective, just as it needs Caleb's. I love Hatrack because it is a community where people who are very different from each other can come together and learn how to live in harmony. It helps us respect and care about people we meet in real life that may share aspects of our Hatrack friends. Thanks to Hatrack, I now have a soft spot in my heart for Mormons and D&D players and Republicans and Democrats and hawks and doves and gays and heteros and Christians and people of all flavors. I'm in a political struggle right now in my hometown, but I remember what I have learned from Hatrack when I deal with the people who disagree with me - civility, support for ideas, honesty, and care for the other person's position.
You are beloved. Your emotions are accepted and your convictions respected. There will always be passionate argument and disagreement, but I think there really is no question that everyone who chooses to call themself a Hatracker is important to this community.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
((((Belle)))) I agree with what you've said in this thread, and I'm glad you had the courage and the words to say it.
((((Kat)))) Please don't beat yourself up
((((Caleb)))) I've never really spoken to you, but you seem to need a hug; the one thing every one seems to agree on here is that you're the best, take the time you need, but please come back to us soon.
posted
I was looking at the thread, I think I've figured something out. I wonder exactly how much comprehension actually takes place in the heated conversations at Hatrack. I'm thinking 10% is optimistic.
Belle was upset at Bob for telling her not to voice her opinion. He didn't say that - he said only the first sentence, and the next sentence took it back and put it as an example.
I don't think she saw that. She saw "you can't say your opinion" and the game was over and the score was called.
This also explains why I didn't get it. My comprehension turned off before I got there. The first sentence in the paragragh shut down the center.
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