You'll never shock or insult someone into listening to you. Once it happens, it is like an emotional push in the water. You get pushed into freezing cold water or you get slapped in the face, you aren't trying to understand the person just pushed you in - you are trying not to drown, you throw up your hands. The conversation is over.
That's the thought behind Godwin's Law of the Internet - a discussion is over once Nazis are mentioned. Because the accusation is so henious, all events from thereon will be defensive - the original topic is lost.
posted
I completely agree, Kat. Oftentimes I read things I wonder why the two people in the discussion are so desperate to find something to take offence to. Are we lazy and it's easier to attack a person than they're arguments? Are we unsure of ourselves and therefore naturally defensive? Or did public education fail us all and we all don't read good no more?
Actually, now that I think about it, every second post I make here seems to be an apology for misreading something the other person said. Maybe I just want to seem smart so I go looking for fault in everyone else's posts? Maybe I just have to make the effort to read posts assuming the other person had the best of intentions and not the worst.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
And I think that's why Caleb was so freaked out by my apology. I thought I was speaking in a normal tone of voice, but because of the personal nature of the topic, it was like I was yelling into a stethoscope hooked up to his ears.
It was like the following: ---------------------- YOU ARE NEVER WORTH ANYTHING WHAT YOU WANT IS NOT WORTH ANYTHING ILL TAKE FROM YOU EVERYTHING YOUVE EVER THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT YOURE HORRIBLE AND TAKE EVERYTHING HAVE EVERYTHING BE EVERYTHING AND LEAVE YOU WITH NOTHING AND IT IS COMPLETELY RIGHT
*deep breath*
Wanna a cookie? ----------------------
I am sorry. That's why I would have said things differently if I'd known. Because I would known I was yelling into a stethoscope.
posted
Even in his first sentence Bob did not tell Belle to not voice her opinions. He asked if it was okay to do so. It was a sentence where confusion could arise, but I would hope people would think for a second and realize Bob would not suggest someone not voice her opinions.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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I guess a lot of it has to do with how quickly or how easily a person's emotional response is triggered. If someone opens a post (or a book, or an article or whatever) with a controversial statement -- such as Bob's post -- I read the post carefully to see if they're being intentionally insulting or if they're making a valid, maybe important, point. Only then do I weigh my emotional response to what they've said.
It seems to me that most people (not just here, but generally speaking) let their initial emotional response point their direction in a discussion. And of course, once that switch has been thrown it's very difficult to continue in a level-headed manner.
I was just talking about this the other day with a friend of mine. He thinks I'm not emotional enough. I was saying how I didn't like getting into debates because I don't throw my emotion switch when most other people do, so while I'm still trying to make logical statements, they're usually ignored for simpler statements of "I'm right and you're wrong" and, of course, name calling. Then I just get frustrated.
I don't know. Of course, I can be horribly indecisive and I think that's at least partly due to the fact that I'll try to think of every angle I can in any debate before voicing my opinion.
In any case, and more to the subject at hand, this is for everyone involved:
quote:so while I'm still trying to make logical statements, they're usually ignored for simpler statements of "I'm right and you're wrong" and, of course, name calling.
Now see, my husband's response to this is, "Yes dear. You're completely right, dear. I was wrong." Of course, he has his fingers crossed behind his back and all. . . Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I guess a lot of it has to do with how quickly or how easily a person's emotional response is triggered. If someone opens a post (or a book, or an article or whatever) with a controversial statement -- such as Bob's post -- I read the post carefully to see if they're being intentionally insulting or if they're making a valid, maybe important, point. Only then do I weigh my emotional response to what they've said.
But Bob wasn't talking to you.
There is a difference between "Dan told Sannah she was a poophead." and "Godric, you're an idiot." The first won't provoke that flight or fight reaction, but the second one will.
If it doesn't, you're the exception. But I doubt it. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I come here for a lot of reasons, not least of which is as an escape from the tedium of my job. Much of what I post here is fluff; it's easy, it's fun. I have yet to feel real anger toward anyone, or to be truly offended. The most I've felt is annoyance. I suppose I maintain a certain level of emotional detachment, especially in serious discussions.
So I guess it surprises me a little how much sorrow I can feel when presented with a situation like this. So much pain, so much anger, it all feels so pointless. It seems like I've been asking this a lot recently, but can't we all just get along? Sometimes it seems like the answer is no, but why?
There isn't really a point to this ramble. This is what happens when you are a part of a real community. It's never all laughs and good times. Every relationship, every community is full of pain as well.
I'm sorry for rambling like this; I suppose it's just my way of working out my own feelings.
Caleb, I hardly know you, but I'm sorry that you're leaving, even if it isn't forever. I feel like so many people have had to take time off in the short time that I've been here. I understand it, but it makes me feel lonely; while you and the others are not here, you are not in my life, and so I feel a loss.
I hope you feel better soon.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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You're a foul, disgusting piece of work yourself...
In all seriousness, I've been called worse than an idiot to my face before and actually tried to understand why the other party felt the need to be so insulting before I let any anger I felt about it surface. Of course, trying to empathize with them only firmed their suspicions that I was indeed an asshole. And they may be right. Sometimes my ability to detach myself scares the living daylights out of me. I'm very much passive-aggresive and once in awhile I'll beat up some poor, innocent piece of junk for no good reason other than having a sudden surge of anger (last time, my old printer got the beat down).
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I second saxon's post. I had been watching the gay marriage thread with horror, but it was nothing compared to the sadness that filled me with Caleb's leaving. A friend is in pain and my heart cries out. Sometimes we just don't see how attached we become to the people here because it is the forum that we think about -- the whole, which is very large. This really engrained in me that the parts of the whole really do mean a lot to me and I am touched by their lives.
Caleb, I was torn when you decided to discard the JohnKeats nick, and you probably didn't even know who I was at that point. *smile* I may be wrong in assuming that you do now. That is the really interesting thing about this site; you can learn and take to heart all the stories that people freely share and they may never know you are there in the shadows listening, but many are there.
I am devestated now to see you go. I know you need some time and I hope you find some healing, but there will always be those here who care about you and have found joy in your words.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm annoyed by the fact that courage is still a requirement for some people to admit they're gay. It's a disgustingly sad fact that there are still such prominent issues regarding discrimination, whether it's based on skin color, sexual orientation, or anything else.
This in America, supposedly the greatest of the free-thinking countries in the world.
Posts: 1855 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Caleb, please don't go. I know if you just talk about it with Kat through e-mail some more, you'll see that it all boils down to the heat of the moment. It happens with everyone on this board at one time or another and I can swear to you that if you just give it time, your anger will pass.
I missed the entire other thread, except for the first few posts. I really thought that there were so many pages on the topic because it had gotten silly.
Anyway, I missed it, but I did not miss this thread.
I don't think you should leave, and here is why I think so.
You are out in this community now. By leaving, you take your voice from the community, and you hamper its ability to heal. You lose the love and support of people you have come to know well, who are ready and willing to readjust their behavior because of you. They cannot change how they feel and believe, but they can change how they act.
They are your friends, rocked by all the casual remarks they may have made about homosexuality, without realizing they were sending bolts through your heart. Give them a chance to heal with you.
"Sure as the sunrise It doesn't matter the shape of the hat We all fit together in a family picture And every wall's got room for that."(Tara Nevins)
It must have been rough on you hiding in fear as you've been doing: afraid that if people found out "what you are" that they'd condemn you.
You barely know me, so forgive me if I offer some advice. You can take it or leave it, as makes sense to you, but I thought I'd at least try to help.
My advice is this: be who you are. If you're gay, then you're gay. Don't be ashamed of who you are, don't be apologetic, and don't feel that you're less valuable than any other human being. And more importantly, don't even let anybody else try to convince you that you are.
I know that your particular faith and homosexuality are at violent odds, and that that's probably caused you a lot of misery. I'm an atheist, so take this advice for what it's worth, but perhaps your current faith isn't the right one for you.
I'm not saying you should be an atheist (though, 'natch, that seems the best pick for me), but I know there are plenty of Christian faiths that don't belittle homosexuals. Perhaps one of them is for you.
So, look in your heart at what you believe. Do you believe in a god who condemns people for being homosexual? Or do you believe in a god who loves everybody? Remember, I don't believe in a god at all, so whatever you believe is all equal in my eyes, but so many people tell me that they know God exists because they feel it to be true in their hearts: so what do you feel in your heart? Perhaps your god is a kind and loving god, after all, and looks at you with love and not disdain. What does your heart tell you?
You are a good person: I've been able to tell this during our very brief association. You deserve better than to live in shame and fear of who you are. I think you should accept who you are and associate with others who accept you for you are as well, rather than trying to hide among others who do not.
Also, remember this: nobody is liked by everybody. You show me a man loved by millions, and I'll show you a man who is hated by millions as well. I have people who love me, and I know people who hate me. The same goes for everyone I've ever met. So remember that you can't make everybody like you, and if you find someone who doesn't like or value you, just move on to the next person. Don't let him or her hide the truth from you that you are a good person and deserving of happiness.
Again, just the two cents of a wandering atheist. Take them for what they're worth to you.
posted
Belle, you know I love you. We've settled our differences long ago -- or at least accommodated them. I should've run those first two sentences together instead of leaving that first out there so boldly.
Read the rest of that post, honey. Really! It's all about how you and I have mostly come to the same decision about staying out of such threads. And I respect you for that decision as much as I respect myself. Because I can't handle these threads without getting upset and sometimes lashing out.
Now, with that in mind, would you take a look at this:
quote:You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
Now, to me, you are keeping score. You are hugging her and telling her that God will forgive her. That's nice if she feels remorse and wants that forgiveness. If she doesn't, then, really, you aren't doing anything but using the situation as a backhanded way to tell her she screwed up...in God's eyes. And yours.
And what I mean by keeping score is this. When you can come back here and say that you have no idea how many women who've had an abortion that you have loved and comforted, then I'll believe that you love the sinner. As long as you are able to tell us about the time you expressed your love for someone even though she had an abortion, you're still keeping score. And that's not your job, unless my reading of Scripture is really seriously out of whack.
And that, my friend, is why I hate the phrase "love the sin, hate the sinner." Because every person who has ever said it to me has been keeping a secret tally of how many people that did THIS or how many did THAT they have counseled or hugged, or told about God's love for them.
And that means that you are still looking at that person as if their sin defined them. Doesn't it? "Oh yeah, she's the lady who had the abortion who I helped come to God."
That's my experience with it, anyway.
Ask yourself, do you remember who had an abortion and who didn't?
Come and tell me when you've forgotten and I'll believe you from then on.
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posted
I put this in the calling all grownups thread, but I think it applies here just as much if not more.
quote:...It also never hurts to screw up and go to your maker and receive that sweet gift of forgiveness, because that’s what it is, is a gift. And if you’ve ever been forgiven, as you look around you, you can’t keep being judgmental.
posted
*very sad* I feel for you, Caleb. I went around on right wing forums arguing and debating with people who are far less civil about their beliefs than people here. It was exausting, draining and painful. But please come back when you are ready, Caleb...
I understand that the bible does have those verses against gayness, I've had them quoted at me by relatives whenever I bought up the issue, but please, realize that you are dealing with people. Complicated fragile people who kick themselves enough as it is and get kicked around by their families and former friends. Please look past faith and doctrine and look straight into the hearts of people... These ideas have destroyed so many lives and souls. Have cost so much damage... and it hurts.... It wears me out... I don't want to attack anyone, or destroy people's faith... I just want people to think about these ideas and not just say, "the bible says so." Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The Bible also says it's ok to have slaves. Slavery, good; being gay, bad. Go figure. You can see why I'm not a big fan of bible-literalism. Learn from it if you like, but acknowledge that it's not a perfect book, and don't punish yourself if you don't match up in every detail to some of the archaic residues of this ancient book.
posted
I might be wrong, but I definately had the impression during Belle's post that the woman was crying because she'd had an abortion. That makes it sort of hard for her to not care about the abortion, "Yes, dear, I love you, I'm sure everything will be fine. What is it that's wrong again?"
I don't think that Belle was talking about comforting someone because their dog was run over, who she just happened to know had an abortion.
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quote: Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
Yeah, that. Phrased much more eloquently than I could've, thanks, dkw.
posted
Caleb - Having completely missed the entire situation and only just read this thread, I only have these two things to say: First, . Second, considering how many times you've rebuffed my advances, you darned well better be gay.
posted
I don't know what to say, other than ((Caleb)) ((Kat))
And Belle, Christ's teaching to hate the sin yet love the sinner may be his hardest. And his most important. Although I'm no longer christian, I do try to follow it. I almost never succeed. You seem like someone who does more than give it lip service, so Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:I might be wrong, but I definately had the impression during Belle's post that the woman was crying because she'd had an abortion. That makes it sort of hard for her to not care about the abortion, "Yes, dear, I love you, I'm sure everything will be fine. What is it that's wrong again?"
I don't think that Belle was talking about comforting someone because their dog was run over, who she just happened to know had an abortion.
As I said, if someone comes to you expressing remorse, that's an entirely different situation and I would expect ANY Christian -- any decent human being, for that matter, to offer comfort to the best of their ability.
Even the most rapid abortion foe would seem to be a heartless churl if they heaped scorn upon a woman who was feeling remorse and seeking solace.
I would never accuse Belle of anything like that. I don't know the situation, but I imagined that the woman did seek her out (or someone in the church) because she was feeling badly for her decision to abort a child.
And I know that Belle would be compassionate and loving in such a situation. I even believe that Belle would be compassionate and loving in a situation where a woman showed NO remorse. That's not the issue.
The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe part of forgiving each other's sins is NOT also forgetting them. But I don't think I'm wrong. First off, it isn't we who do the forgiving. It is God. So we have no business even making the judgement in the first place. Secondly, when God forgives and we don't forget, what does that say about us? I can see where we might have a hard time forgetting that so and so is a rapist or a thief -- the criminal behavior might resurface and there's nothing in Scripture that says we can't protect ourselves by being aware of other people's potential for wicked deeds.
But this is different. And, to me, it doesn't play as well outside the congregation.
That's all.
And I've set up a tough criterion for believing someone's claims on this score. Mainly because I've known too darn many self-righteous bastards who claim out of the side of their mouth, to love the sinner and hate the sin.
I'm not really accusing Belle of being a self-righteous person. I'm saying that I don't believe anyone's claims about loving the sinner and hating the sin. I may never, but if I found someone who simply doesn't care what the sin was and doesn't keep track of them, then I'm at least prepared to acknowledge that they've met my definition of it.
In reality, all they have to do is meet their own definition of it. Right?
And Belle knows that I have a lot of respect for her and her faith. And I always will. I don't agree with most of it, but that doesn't mean I can't respect it. Respecting it doesn't mean I can't challenge expressions of it on a BB either. Especially when the parts of it that I abhor the most are used in a post as an example.
I think my biggest mistake here was assuming that Belle and I had the same understanding of the accommodation we'd reached over the past couple of years.
Either that or I crossed a line with her and I really didn't mean to.
posted
Oh, Caleb! For goodness sake, DO NOT LEAVE! Take a break, for as long as you need, but DO COME BACK! We love you here and need you.
Please forgive us! Forgive me for getting mad at you for no reason that time so long ago, because of my misunderstanding, when we were just becoming good friends. I've always regretted that and wished I could make it right. We've never been very close since then and I know that was why.
Forgive those who can't accept who you are. We are all of us limited in our understanding and all of us fail to accept others in ways we do not even see, oftentimes, just as all of us are not accepted for who we are by others. Sometimes even by our family or closest friends. That really hurts. Believe me I do know a little about that.
You've got the crash course, now. You've been put in the AP level class in forgiveness and acceptance and learning to love people despite their folly and errors and inability to see you as a person. That must mean your spirit is ready for that, and has been judged worthy. That must mean your spirit is at a far higher level than mine, and I honor you for it.
The greatest strength of all is the strength to be able to show weakness. All the great truths are paradoxical, it seems. <laughs>
I've not forgotten Hatrack, Inc. and I'm still at work on it. Hatrack, Inc. still needs you as much as ever. Come back to us.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
I just looked up for something totally different this favorite passage from the Bhagavad Gita, on the qualities of the wise soul. I measure myself against them and fall so short. To me it seems that you embody them ever so much more than I ever could.
quote:Humility means that one should not be anxious to have the satisfaction of being honored by others... Nonviolence means not to put others into distress... Tolerance means that one should be practiced to bear insult and dishonor from others... Simplicity meant that without diplomacy, one should be so straightforward that one can disclose the real truth even to an enemy... Steadiness means that one should be very determined to make personal progress... Self control means that one should not accept anything which is detrimental to the path of personal progress.
Don't leave us, for if you do, from whom will we learn these things?
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
How a man can avoid lusting after Tikas is beyond me, dude, but you know I've always liked you. You have one hell of a spine -- considering your background, it takes guts to "admit" your sexual preference.
No wonder I dig you.
If you're ever in LA, dude, you and Sandy and I have to get together for some cashews sometime.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:I am a Christian who believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. I will not change my view, because I am committed to my faith, and my faith is an integral part of me.
I will not apologize for my view, because I can't. It would be false, and a betrayal of my own core beliefs to pretend that I am ashamed of "how I must feel" on this issue.
Does that make sense?
I know many of you scoff at "hate the sin, love the sinner" and think no one can possibly do that. You're wrong. I've wrapped my arms around a woman who aborted a child, and told her I loved her, even though I felt she had committed a terrible sin. I've told homosexuals I am and would be their friend, and meant it.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Belle...is it okay if we ask you to never state your opinions openly in public?
You'd ask me never to speak for my faith? My opinion is unpopular by your standards so I'm not allowed to say it out loud?
I thought about starting a thread yesterday with the post I put above. Why? Because through prayer and meditation I realized that I wasn't willing to stand up and speak what I believed, then my faith was shallow.
You don't want me to hate the sina nd love the sinner, Bob, you want me to turn my back on sin altogether. I can't. I could not tell that woman that what she did was okay. I could tell her that there is forgiveness and redemption in Christ.
*thinks*
Truthfully, and this is coming from the heart, I don't think I will be welcome at hatrack anymore. I can't sit in the background and pretend to have no opinion on things. I've spent too much time staying silent about my thought and beliefs because I didn't want to "rock the boat." I wanted to be accepted and liked here at hatrack.
But you've just proven what I was afraid of. If I do speak out for my beliefs, I won't be tolerated.
It's okay. Nothing more than I expected would happen. But if the choice is between compromising so I can stay with an online community I've come to care about and being true to my faith, there's no choice at all.
I love you get furious when someone asks you to deny what you are. Not that Bob was requesting that of you, but imagine what it's like for others who are LEGISLATED against by a self-righteous majority?
And, let's face it, you're among it. Paul's statement is the only semi-legitimate Biblical base against homosexuality that exists, and if your faith is so orthodox as to include that, I demand equal treatment for every other statement in the Bible.
I'm currently wearing a shirt that's made up of several fibers. I hope you're acknowledging my grievous sin, and loving me anyway. I'm planting hellish numbers of fields with different seeds (developed to tree toddlerhood, but still, different trees) -- have you asked God to forgive me for my sin? I've cut my hair, lain with women before marriage, and have a bad habit of not executing firstborn sons I see talk back to their parents.
Will you please forgive me my crimes?
Whether you'll openly acknowledge it or not, you ARE picking and choosing exceptionally sparse bits of the Bible to believe in. There are, what, three parts in the Bible that supposedly go against homosexuality -- the smited men in Sodom, Leviticus, and Paul's exceptionally brief statement in a letter that he doesn't want men to sleep with men.
If you're at all versed in the Bible you claim to believe in, you should already know the Bible's account of God smiting the Sodomites was probably more because the men wanted to rape the travelers (I forget the names) than because they wanted to sleep with other men. You should already know that Leviticus is so radical that it was rejected by the Council of Jerusalem for being too damn insane. And if you're willing to insist that a ridiculously small claim by Paul should be held as your Gospel, I DEMAND you acknowledge every other ridiculously small segment of the Bible that exists.
But you won't leave town when your time of the month comes around, will you? You won't sell your daughter into slavery, even though the Bible even quotes prices for you, will you?
It's insulting to my friends and my intellect if you expect me to believe that your insistence on the supposed sinfulness of a loving relationship between two committed partners is without a hint of bias -- unless, of course, you're pious enough to follow every law of the Bible to the letter. Are you?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Remember the big todo when the "Under God" was removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? Oh, how the Christian majority jumped all over that. Never mind how insulting it was to us in the minority: "This is a Christian nation," they proclaimed, and treated atheists like we were child-molesters.
Yeah, well Iraq and Iran are Muslim nations, and I don't hear too many Americans singing their praises. I guess it's ok to be a religious nation when it's your religion.
Just like it's ok to speak your mind ... if you happen to represent the majority, that is.
quote:The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe part of forgiving each other's sins is NOT also forgetting them. But I don't think I'm wrong. First off, it isn't we who do the forgiving. It is God. So we have no business even making the judgement in the first place. Secondly, when God forgives and we don't forget, what does that say about us? I can see where we might have a hard time forgetting that so and so is a rapist or a thief -- the criminal behavior might resurface and there's nothing in Scripture that says we can't protect ourselves by being aware of other people's potential for wicked deeds.
But this is different. And, to me, it doesn't play as well outside the congregation.
That's all.
And I've set up a tough criterion for believing someone's claims on this score. Mainly because I've known too darn many self-righteous bastards who claim out of the side of their mouth, to love the sinner and hate the sin.
Very well said, Bob. I think I agree, as a Christian, with everything you point out here. I think "love the sinner and hate the sin" has become a Christian "catch phrase" that has lost its meaning.
Your point about it is God who does the forgiving is especially poignant, I think, because among Christians it is so often forgotten or not understood. If a non-believer commits a sin, be it having an abortion or stealing from the grocery store, it's not a personal attack on individual Christians. But I think many Christians view certain "sins" in that light. I'm pretty sure that Christianity teaches that all men are condemned by their own sins and that they are aware of it and that our purpose is to spread the gospel of Christ's sacrifice for our redemption as sinners. I don't see anywhere in the Bible or take the meaning that Christians ought to enforce any moral standards on society at large or nonbelievers. That just doesn't make sense, but I think that's exactly what a lot of Christians try to do.
Now, I think most of them are well-meaning, but they just haven't thought through their faith and what some of their actions imply. I have no qualms about being a Christian, but I do take issue more often than not with the church.
Lalo:
quote:And, let's face it, you're among it. Paul's statement is the only semi-legitimate Biblical base against homosexuality that exists, and if your faith is so orthodox as to include that, I demand equal treatment for every other statement in the Bible.
I'm currently wearing a shirt that's made up of several fibers. I hope you're acknowledging my grievous sin, and loving me anyway. I'm planting hellish numbers of fields with different seeds (developed to tree toddlerhood, but still, different trees) -- have you asked God to forgive me for my sin? I've cut my hair, lain with women before marriage, and have a bad habit of not executing firstborn sons I see talk back to their parents.
Will you please forgive me my crimes?
I can't speak for Belle believes, but I would like to point out that the Levitical laws were set forth to God's chosen people, not gentile Christians. And I think it's pretty clear that Jesus' and Paul's encouragement for Christians is to follow the spirit and not the letter of the law, anyway.
quote:Take care, lest thine path leadest thou down the slippery slope wherein thou dost picketh and chooseth those portions of Scripture that pleaseth thou most. The sign that thou has strayed from the path shall be when thou dost agreeth with Bob.
Not only did I abandon the Gay Marriage thread long before it became so painful to you (I have been a stick-to-the-fluff poster for about a year, maybe longer) But I also missed this thread entirely. ENTIRELY
Seriously, people. I called Caleb on the phone yesterday and found out he'd left Hatrack.
Katharina, I have you beat in the "Oblivious" department. Geez.
And I knew. I knew Caleb was gay for almost as long as I have known him in person.
Caleb, you have to know I love you, kiddo. I want you to be happy, and if space and distance from Hatrack helps that (as it has for me) then more power to you.
Belle, I figure you won't see this, since I think you really have left Hatrack, too. I love you, too, even though I don't agree with you. I wish you'd return my calls. I miss you, and I want to help. Plus, I need to talk to you about WenchCon before we make any announcements.
This just makes me very sad.
To everyone who cares about Caleb, I talked to him and he's having a bit of a vacation and a good time. So don't be worried that he's all mopey, or anything.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
It is very ironic that Kat said that " homosexuals would suffer for the greater good of society." I think they will, but not for the outcome that everyone expects. It is my sincerest hope that homosexuality and a few other things like birth control, abortion, medical advancements, etc., become the last holding grounds against the constrictual christian relgions. The difference now is that homosexuality is not alone anymore, it stands a chance against the miriad ranks of the faithful. Culture will wind up slowly pressing one way until either the faithful fade the modernists, or vica versa. I tend to think it will be the archaic faiths that fade out of usefullness. This is why I admire homosexuals, even though I am not one. They are social pioneers, implementing a change greater than they know.
[ August 23, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
Posts: 622 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Caleb, we haven’t interacted directly much, but from your posts I respect and admire you. I hope you come back. If we ever get the chance to become friends, I’d like someday to dance at your wedding. Or at least to send a card.
(said much better then I could ever)
I don't really know you Calab, but from everything Pod/Ted has said and what I've read on hatrack, I've always thought you were a good guy. I hope I have the chance to read posts by you once again.
Thank you for making me rethink my stance on lurking- I've never considered that I could hurt people by not posting.
posted
Well, since i don't know whether caleb is reading this or not, it might be moot to say these things. Still, i will say them anyway.
To caleb, i am sorry i stopped paying attention once the fight started to heat up in the previous thread. "I didn't know" is a weak excuse, particularly in a context like this. The fundamental problem unfortunately lies in the laziness that comes of debating what is, for me, a somewhat academic topic.
The reality of the arguing over homosexuality is that almost all those opposed to it are hetero (in fact, i've never once seen a non-hetero argue against homosexuality), and thus as a result, they are discussing a subject which to them has no tangible reality beyond second hand experiences (knowing people who are not hetero), or the "ick" factor that some claim (frankly, i don't see why people who find homosexual sex gross, dont' find heterosexual sex gross [and it certainly is not the case that hetero sex is never gross]).
I gave up arguing over this subject and others, because i, as someone who's interested in girls (particularly in the girl i am currently dating), have no traction with people who have only second hand experiences for which they possess some visceral or academic disapproval over (note inclusive or). As a result, because i can ultimately do nothing to change their minds, i stopped trying.
Thus i stand complict to their arguments, for not defending who you were, regardless of whether i knew it or not. All i can say is that i'm sorry, and that i made a mistake. The superficial characteristics of the people who you are romantically interested in don't matter to me personally, and while they shouldn't as a matter of philosophy they end up having an effect. I gave up arguing, because i thought it wasn't a big deal for me to not argue. What is plainly obvious now, is that i was wrong. It did matter to someone who matters to me, and i understand how you might feel let down.
I'm sorry bro. Catch you on the flip side.
Posts: 4482 | Registered: May 2000
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Man, it must be really terrible to get involved in discussions like you have had. I am very, very sorry for you.
Posts: 1247 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I hope you saw from my comments on that thread that I agreed with you Caleb. In hindsight, my post about how I was amazed that the homosexual hatrackers could stay so calm seems rather ironic . You'd think I was in the know. In reality, I didn't know you were a homosexual Caleb, but I knew there were probably several gay hatrackers. For those of you most suprised by Caleb's "coming out", I can guarantee you that he's not the only one.
There are very few "academic issues". There are NONE when dealing with the lives of other people. This topic is about as far from it as you can get.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Caleb- This is the first time I've opened this thread. I didn't and haven't read the other thread. This one is extremely powerful all by itself, and I think it has changed more hearts than any academic debate could have done.
I believe that the only way to bridge the experience gap between the auto-response of what you've been taught and a different reality, is to go through the experience yourself, or love the face of the person who is going through the experience. For many here, you are that beloved person... that irreplaceable bridge. You have made a difference.
Bob- Though I'm definitely a theist, I believe in many of the same things you do. The way I read it, the Bible demands that I acknowledge that my brother is my equal. I have not been sent to judge him and I don't assume that he's got a better take on God's requirements of me than I do. My beliefs are very much of the "no one gets left behind" variety... but, I'm afraid I'm becoming more and more of a bigot.
I believe that a good person loves his neighbor and never seeks to do him physical or emotional harm or limit his ability to pursue his dreams. He judges a person's integrity by how closely the person's deeds follow their words and does not feel the need to judge a person's heart.
But as I say, I am getting more and more entrenched in this belief and I fear it will turn me into someone who will miss-out on moments I would have treasured.
Ironically, my son asked me on the drive from Chicago to SB how he was supposed to treat everyone nicely if he didn't like what they were saying. Mind you, he was talking about football. I told him that there are very few things important enough to lose a friendship over. He asked me to list those things, but I just told him he would know.
But I'm not sure if I know.
How do I walk the tight-rope and love the person even if I hate what he stands for.
What convinces me even more of my slip into bigot status is that I know in my heart I will continue to seek-out and embrace those who not just accept, but enjoy people for who they are - not who they might become . Yet I avoid those I consider "closed-minded". I will listen to their ideas, but get physically disgusted when it requires someone be excluded. So I exclude them from my life.
So no one gets left behind, but I sure don't want to sit on the bus next to them for the journey. Nice example I am, huh. Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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We're all bigots. The incredibly-important first step is to recognize the bigotry in yourself and ask yourself, "how am I going to control my bigotry?"
You can add me to the list of people who is sorry she never responded to this thread or to the other one.
Like Jaiden, I never thought that I could hurt someone by not posting. I wish I had supported you.
I am glad that you are doing okay, and hope to see you back at Hatrack, whenever you feel ready to come back. I have always enjoyed your posts and opinions.
posted
Jeffrey, yes, that's what she means. You haven't been around much lately, so you missed it when Ginette was (all to briefly) posting prolifically, so I'll tell you a bit about her. Ginette's first language is not English, but she is one of the most sympathetic and caring people around.
I've been lurking or absent a lot lately myself, just because other demands have kept me away from Hatrack. But this is still a very special place to me. I will not purposely leave it, though I may be away from time to time.
Caleb, I didn't read the original thread beyond the first page because it didn't seem too serious, and because, as I have noted, I haven't been around much. I'm sorry that you felt like you were defending your point of view alone. (I wasn't even aware that your sexuality was a secret; I remember you mentioning it at least a year ago.) For what it's worth, I would like to say that I don't believe there is anything the least bit immoral about homosexuality, I am opposed to anti-sodomy laws, and I am in favor of expanding the current legal definition of marriage to open it up to homosexuals. I say this here simply so you know that you are not alone in these beliefs, and that there may be other reasons why not enough people came to your defense besides the ones you assume: that nobody agrees with you, or that nobody cares, or that we are afraid of backlash. Sorry I wasn't there when it would have meant more . . . .
Belle, you misread Bob's post.
Bob, I believe you when you say you don't believe Belle is sanctimonious or self-righteous. And like you, I have known plenty of religious people who were. But when you take a statement of hers and say, "lots of hypocrites say this," well, the inference is all to easy to make. I get the sense that you're making a general statement, because Belle's posts have put the topic into your mind. Your own posts make this clear to me, when you say:
quote: And I know that Belle would be compassionate and loving in such a situation. I even believe that Belle would be compassionate and loving in a situation where a woman showed NO remorse. That's not the issue.
The issue is that people who hate the sin and love the sinner are, to me, a lot like people who keep a "life list" of birds they've spotted. Somewhere inside, there's a list of who they've ministered to and what wickedness that person had done. Perhaps those stories are useful in a congregation of their peers. Among other Christians, one might decide that those stories and tallies have a use in inspiring others to do likewise.
But out of that context, I think there's an aspect of it that belies the "love the sinner" part.
You move from talking about Belle, whom we all know to be a compassionate and loving person, to talking about vague, unspecified "people who do this. . . ." I think you are talking about something you've seen in others that genuinely bugs you. I feel the exact same way about people who say "I forgive, but I can't forget." That forgiveness seems false to me then (in most cases). But you can't know whether or not Belle keeps such a "life list" in her heart, or the context in which she has comforted people, and I think you acknowledge this in your post.
The problem, though, is that it shoots to hell Belle's attempt to say, in essence, "I cannot change this belief of mine, but I want to get along amicably with you despite this, and to share with you all of the friendship that we would be capable of sharing outside of this one disagreement." I don't think Belle was posting to show off how forgiving she is, but rather to convince Caleb that it was possible for him to remain in this community where some people disagree with him on so fundamental a point. I can certainly see why it might not be, when the issue is this basic--Caleb's right to happiness, in essence--but this is not a perfect world, and people will not agree with you, even on the issues you hold most dear. Is it possible to get along, or even to be friends, anyway?
I think that's the spirit in which Belle's post was written. I don't think she was trying to debate the issue of homosexuality either, whereas I think you are. I don't think the two of you were carrying on the same conversation, although you addressed each other.
I don't think anything productive can come from continuing to shred her position in this thread, whether it be regarding homosexuality or the validity of Christian truisms. I think in a month or so, it would be very interesting to have a thread exploring whether or not most humans are truly capable of distinguishing between sinners and sins, or whether the majority of people who claim to are simply being sanctimonious. In another thread, where it could be made clear that you are not attacking Belle specifically, but merely talking about the way this phrase is most commonly used.
As to those who have, for the moment, left, I won't presume to tell you that you should come back because the rest of us will miss you. (If you can't see that, though, you are a dolt. ) If you need time, take it. I will miss you both terribly, especially you Belle, if only because I have interacted with you more, and I will fervently hope that you return to us soon.
I think both of you are guilty of ignoring all of the people who agree with you and seeing only the opposition. Looking at Papa Moose's thread about departed Hatrackers, it is easy to see that people from every political persuasion have left, often expressing dissatisfaction with the "fact" that Hatrack has swung too far away from their beliefs, and that they are in an ignored minority. Hatrack has become too liberal. Hatrack is too reactionary. Hogwash. It is a shame to see such an illustrious list of people be so utterly, foolishly, wrong. I have been guilty of this martyr complex myself. The closest I ever came to leaving was when a grumpy old-timer announced that I was a prime example of what's wrong with Hatrack. I got over my pique and quickly realized he didn't even come close to speaking for everyone, and I stuck around. But it's so human to only see those who disagree with you.
Many of us have said that Hatrack's strength is its diversity. Well, you can't have diversity without occasional friction. We all grow, though, from sticking around here and trying to communicate with those that disagree with us. When you leave, it is our loss because we lose a bit of that diversity that makes us special. But it is your loss too, because whether you run to some other forum where everybody agrees with you (and no discussions take place) or find less philosophically challenging outlets IRL, you too lose an opportunity to grow. And everybody has room for growth.
As far as feeling that there is no point to this diversity, because nobody ever changes his or her mind . . . . once again I say "Nonsense." Your most vocal opponent doesn't change his or her mind, so you feel your words have no effect. What about the lurkers who aren't posting? What about the people who aren't certain they possess the truth? What about the people in this forum who have never known anybody who was openly gay, to put a face on an "academic" issue and challenge their preconceptions? What about the people in this forum who have learned to rationalize anything to themselves, who might benefit from being challenged on issues of morality?
I am a very moderate person politically, not because I don't have strong feelings on issues, but because my strong feelings don't perfectly line up with those of either "camp." Sometimes I wonder if, in the places where I am liberal, I have become too wishy-washy, and have gone too far in my relativism. Sometimes, I wonder if, in the places where I am conservative, I am simply being narrow-minded because I want to stick to "truths" that are known and comfortable. I believe that growth occurs in the tension between these positions, because I am forced to consider all sides before I make my mind up. Perhaps this notion of "culture war" that Tom Davidson decries in another thread is symptomatic of the fact that most people in our society have worked to insulate themselves from contrary points of view, from threatening ideas.
I think the diversity that we truly do have here is a valuable asset in holding our culture together. It's a shame more people don't have a place like this to come be exposed to threatening ideas, like the thought that your scripture might, in fact, be wrong, or the thought that your actions might, in fact, be immoral.
One way or another, it will get better eventually. Hopefully we here will still be a part of that for you.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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. Second, considering how many times you've rebuffed my advances, you darned well better be gay.![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
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) If you need time, take it. I will miss you both terribly, especially you Belle, if only because I have interacted with you more, and I will fervently hope that you return to us soon.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It is a shame to see such an illustrious list of people be so utterly, foolishly, wrong. I have been guilty of this martyr complex myself. The closest I ever came to leaving was when a grumpy old-timer announced that I was a prime example of what's wrong with Hatrack. I got over my pique and quickly realized he didn't even come close to speaking for everyone, and I stuck around. But it's so human to only see those who disagree with you.
