posted
I'm finished with all of it now but it's one of those books that it takes a while to decide what you think of it. I read the introduction by the non-author, too, and so found out what someone else thought of the book. I only ever read those after I've read the book myself cause I've found they can spoil things for me, particularly if my own reading of what the book is about is very different from the introducer's.
1. What did you think of the first section of the book, the discussion on the Glass Bead Game (in terms of both tone and content)? Was the background presented important for the later narrative of Knecht's life or did it get in the way? Why? Why not?
For me the whole introduction could have been skipped. It was way too much exposition, and could have been replaced with an appropriate paragraph or two here and there as the Glass Bead Game came up in the course of the story. The introducer said it was supposed to be a joke, an illustration of the excessive pedantism of scholars set apart from life like those in Castalia. I wonder if it wasn't also something of a joke on his readers. A way to discourage the glib and non-serious among them, or to give them a bit of a tweak on the nose?
2. What did you think of the idea of the glass bead game itself? How do you picture it? [do a google search for it and you'll find people who have tried to create one].
It's quite interesting. I see it as a sort of like jazz improvization but with more than just music involved. Symbolic logic, prepositional calculus, and all the various systems from math, of course, but also the language of art, if there were some way to codify that and incorporate it, and also economics, literature, every field of human endeavor would be represented. I still see the central metaphor as being music, though. It struck me that when he discussed great thinkers, musicians, etc, he very heavily weighted the Germans. As though civilization were Germans, then a few other footnotes. I love Hesse and also Goethe, Bach, Beethoven, lots of Germans who have done so many great things, but I did get a feeling of bias there. Is that the same bias that all the people of the world have for their own history, their own culture, and their own past? Or is it something that we are starting to get beyond in the 21st century that people were very much still caught up in at the start and middle of the last century?
3. What irritated you most about the account of the early years of Knecht's life (let's say up until things get going with his assignment to feel out Father Jacobus)? What did you find illuminating or charming?
I came to see the book in terms of what was happening in the world around Hesse at the time he was writing. I love his fascination with Eastern religion, and I do think he was one of the first westerners to sort of bring that influence into our canon. Kazantzakis introduced me to Buddhism when I was 14, and I can't remember when he was writing. Perhaps it was before Hesse. When was the Greek civil war? (My knowledge of history is abysmal. I apologize. Y'all please try to educate me as well as you can so I can catch up.)
The thing I found worrisome or sad about the first part of the book was the narrator's lack of affection for the people who were only dabblers in intellectual pursuits. His sort of despair that so few were real thinkers in our (Hesse's now) age. Though there were plenty of reasons for fearing the end of everything around the time of World War II, I think it's a perennial mistake throughout all time that old people think the world has gone crazy now, that these young people today are shallow and not serious and lack any restraint or discipline, that in the olden times we did things so much better. I never can sympathize with any such hand wringing, whether I read it in Herodotus or Shakespeare or when I heard my grandfather say it, or when people say it now. It's just human nature to feel that way.
The truth is that all times are actually crazy. That's what makes life interesting. Things only seem sensible when time and memory give a distance from them, and afterwards when things have worked out better than people's worst fears. That and everyone's childhood seemed a better time to them than their old age. They didn't worry about things when they were children. Their parents and grandparents did the worrying then.
4. Music and meditation play an important role in the education of the Castalian's and the formation and centering of Knecht's character. Do you buy it? What seemed to be missing (if anything)? Do you think Hesse's views are mimiced by the importance these matters hold for the Castalians or are there parts of the novel where a more ironic attitude slips through?
Yes, I think Hesse was saying with this novel that a contemplative life is incomplete. I think he was a great lover of music and of meditation and reading and thinking. Yet it isn't enough. One also must live. To me that's what he meant.
The death of Knecht upset me very badly. I felt very much the liberation and joy that he felt at the end when he seemed at last to be on the right path. To tell you the truth I was identifying with it, as I feel that same way since my decision to go to Iraq. Then when he barely was able to start, and had accomplished so far nearly nothing, to have him die like that really upset me. It seemed prophetic, in a way. I do think now, after having read the three lives (all three of which I really loved) and the preface which told something Hesse said in a letter, that Knecht's death was meant as a sort of sacrifice. That his death was not meaningless, nor his life, but that both together were going to accomplish (or help accomplish) what he set out to do. Yes, I think that's what he meant and I am reconciled to it. So be it.
[ October 25, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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I don't want to cut discussion short on this book. I loved this book and there's a lot there to discuss. But I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for the next book we read. I'm reading Chaim Potok's In the Beginning and it's wonderful and sad. It's about a very intelligent boy, David, who grew up in New York after the first world war, during the depression, and though the second world war. He is one of those wonderful Potok characters who is rather quiet and thoughtful but whose feelings become one's own. It's being rather a sad book, so far, but very full of thought and life and spirit, as well as pain and sorrow. I recommend it highly. In the Beginning.
[ October 25, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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We have several page-turner action type books on the list. I expect both the Dumas ones and the Walter Scott are like this. (I can't personally vouch for any of them as I only picked books I haven't yet read.) I'm pretty sure the Wilkie Collins and Umberto Eco are too.
We have some classic Science Fiction. I've heard many many people say Forever War was one of the best SF novels ever, and I've heard great things about C. J. Cherryh. The Kim Stanley Robinson sounds particularly wonderful.
We have kids books. Artemis Fowl is great fun. I've already read two of the three of those. The Prydain Chronicles were recommended by no less than Dante, and His Dark Materials by nearly everyone.
I'm sort of leaning toward The Satanic Verses myself, as I read an article by him and was quite impressed with his writing. Also any book that makes someone wants to murder the author is surely worth reading, isn't it?
We have writers from many countries from which to choose. Take your pick.
Or if nothing on this list appeals to you, then feel free to make other suggestions.
[ October 29, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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Ever since I've been at hatrack, my list of books I want to read has grown far faster than I've been able to shrink it again by reading them. I actually am worried and upset about the possibility that many of the books I once thought I really wanted to read, I just forgot about completely before I ever got around to them.
I'm also worried that there is no possible way I can finish all the good books there are in the world by the time I'm dead. That's good and bad. On the one hand it would be terribly sad to think that one had come to the end of all the good books that had ever been written. The same awful way it feels to complete the works of an author you particularly love, it would be, only far far worse. But on the other hand, it means I will inevitably die before I get to read some really great books. Which ones do I miss? How can I possibly pick? Waaaaaaah!
So we'd better get going and read, read, read! We don't have any time to lose!
[ October 29, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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I think I'm very slightly late *looks sheepish* but I havent been able to get the book till recently, please keep the discussion going!
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Not a problem! I hope you will let us know what you think.
Reading back over what I said before, I'm a little more hopeful that perhaps the attitude of disappointment with the shallow intellectual lives of the people in the age of Feuilletonism was not Hesse's own feeling, but rather a feeling held by the ivory tower scholars he was poking fun of. I definitely now think the first bit was partly a joke on his cultish readership. How many of them would buy the book and put it on their shelf unread? I wouldn't have gotten through that part had several people not told me it got better.
When I googled for the correct spelling of feuilletonism, I came across some of the people hailing TGBG as a flagship of their thought, and they ARE a bit, ummm..... how would one say it? There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for the book among a diverse crowd. Some of them a bit wacko, perhaps, do you think?
I want to add a question to the list. How do you think the book works as speculative fiction? Did he get it right, or not?
[ November 04, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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1. What did you think of the first section of the book, the discussion on the Glass Bead Game (in terms of both tone and content)? Was the background presented important for the later narrative of Knecht's life or did it get in the way? Why? Why not?
I actually didnt mind the first section too much, it was a tad boring, but the I found the concept of the game pretty fascinating, I dont think it was in the way as such, but I can see a lot of people being put off the book because of the beginning.
2. What did you think of the idea of the glass bead game itself? How do you picture it? [do a google search for it and you'll find people who have tried to create one].
I found the game to be a fascinating idea, although I still dont think I've grasped how you actually play it I thought of it as a way to show ideas, and change and adapt them.
How it would look, I have no idea, apart from the fact that it would probably be quite beautiful
3. What irritated you most about the account of the early years of Knecht's life (let's say up until things get going with his assignment to feel out Father Jacobus)? What did you find illuminating or charming?
I would have like a more personal account of jospeh, instead of the slightly detatched one we got, but it does have its merits. The passionate talk he has with the music master, about truth, I found very charming
4. Music and meditation play an important role in the education of the Castalian's and the formation and centering of Knecht's character. Do you buy it? What seemed to be missing (if anything)? Do you think Hesse's views are mimiced by the importance these matters hold for the Castalians or are there parts of the novel where a more ironic attitude slips through?
I think he respects music and meditation, but is disdainful of the detatchment that these people have with reality, being intellectual for the sake of it is one thing, completely ignoring reality for the sake of there own sheltered lives is another.
The death of Joseph Knecht, although constantly hinted at, was still distressing, and although I think he himself was fine with the entire thing, it did annoy me that what he had set out to do didn't seem to be finished, or even show signs that tito would carry on his work.
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If we are taking new book suggestions... might I suggest Crime and Punishment. I also believe it is online as an E-book for people who have not the money to buy a hardback or paperback copy.
Brother, tell them I went to America.
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I expect everyone's already read Crime and Punishment. It looks as though you have too. But I'd sure be happy to read it again and talk about it if people want. I'm about due for another reading, since it's probably been a couple of years now.
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Funny, funny stuff. ----- I have things to say about Hesse's novel, but need to find time to say them.
As far as next goes -- I'd prefer to not do Crime and Punishment, but am pretty open to whatever folks want to read.
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I love the way he handled Knecht's death (the first one) as much as ak and others seem to hate it. Everything about it seemed perfect--not just the sacrifical aspect but also how it relates to the whole individual vs community theme Hesse develops throughout. And the way he dies--Death by Water--how perfect is that?
Ummm...that's all for now. More later.
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I too found it hard to envision the game because it is presented in such abstract terms (which is kind of the point). I kind of like the idea of being able to see patterns and linkages across disciplines, but the good postmodernist in me objects to the idea that one could somehow encode these ideas in symbols [the glass beads] without substantially changing them [structuralism has this same problem which is why it was quickly abandoned for post-structuralism]. Such reification doesn't work for me. But then again, I've always been much more comfortable with narratives than formulas.
As far as its place in the book, I can think of no better way to symbolize the specialized, often arcane, terminology and rarefied air of elitist academics [that term may be redundant to some, but I've met/read academics whose work is approachable and interesting].
The one thing I did like is the description of Knecht and [his overwrought friend] planning his glass bead game presentation. It's neat to read about productive creative relationships and how they work.
Jazz is a great analogy, ak, and I agree with your thoughts on Hesse's overemphasis on German culture. I think it's a bias that many nationalities have, but in my experience, the French and the Germans are the most prone to it. The English are a little quicker to acknowledge their debt to other sources and celebrate non-national figures.
Finally, what I think would be more interesting would be if they did the glass bead game and then tried to translate it into a scholarly-artistic work (or works). That could be kind of cool -- re-enriching the beads and seeing where the pattern leads when it comes to contextualized work.
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The overwrought friend was supposed to be Nietzsche, according to the introduction. He was supposedly the archetype of the academician who was unsuited for any sort of ordinary life.
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I'd like to read Crime and Punishment, my dad tells me it's really good. I don't see why we can't be discussing a few books at the same time in here, so if not everybody wants to read the same book it won't matter.
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My problem with the jazz analogy is that it's hard to imagine the Castilians tolerating anything so spontaneous and individualistic that it would resemble improvisation. I saw it as something much more ordered and impersonal, like a fugue.
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On the "The General Introduction," the narrative, the rhetoric of the Castalian narrator, and Knecht's death ("The Legend"):
While the distancing technique created by the presence of the Castalian narrator of the novel interferes with our reading of the novel as we are accustomed to read most novels, I think that it's crucial to its impact. The main narrative takes us through the major events of Knecht's life in relation to Waldzell. It is given, ostensibly, to explain why Knecht eventually leaves. There's no tension in this regard -- we are told from the beginning that that's what the narrative leads to. The main narrative is unabashedly hagiographic. How often are we told about Knecht's brilliance? Every step in Knecht's career is shown to be a natural progression and -- importantly -- clear to all the Castalians if not always clear to Knecht himself. Great care is taken to preserve Knecht as not only a brilliant man, but also the finest practitioner of Waldzell customs and disciplines and as an upholder of the hierarchy.
Why present this main narrative in this form? For one, it allows for plenty of telling -- we are mainly told that Knecht is great. That fact is crucial to the narrative, but if Hesse had tried to show that through the point of view of Knecht, it would have been much more difficult to establish, and impossible to establish and still create an understanding of Knecht's inherent humility. The distance, and it's a Castalian distance (Knecht finally remains opaque to the Order -- they simply cannot understand his decision to leave), created allows us to both buy into the myth of Knecht, to see him as a great man, but also to sympathize with him. We understand his dilemma through the rhetoric of the narrative.
Finally, as the novel takes up the story of Knecht after he leaves the Order, the Castalian intrusions leave and we're given a more "straightforward" narrative (and note that it's one of unknown authorship). After being immersed in the main narrative, we're all of sudden getting more of Hesse, in my opinion, and we move through the story more easily as readers until we get to the shocking conclusion -- Knecht's sudden death -- and the switch in point of view to Tito, as he comes to the realization of this not quite rational but overwhelming guilt, a guilt that demands.
It's important that readers feel a shock that is powerful enough that we understand Tito's response (which, naturally, is key to the whole novel). All the previous material has pushed us towards the fact of Knecht's separation from Castalia. We experience a sort of catharsis as Knecht makes the decision to leave and a sort of excitement as he enters the real world (our world). For him to leave it so soon and in such a way (death by water as Deridre reminds us -- do you have more on that for us, D?) is shocking and almost incomprehensible. At least it was for me, and I gather for the rest of you who have posted so far. But again, the shock and its implications, are beautifully set up by the previous "main narrative" and the Castalian rhetoric and the distance created that keeps Knecht sympathetic in our eyes, but distant. He really only breaks through as real character in the final moments -- and in his three lives.
A few words about the three lives:
As anne kate has mentioned, the three lives are critical to our understanding of the ending, dealing as they do with mentors and students, society's relationship to men of knowledge (and I'm sorry this book is all men -- another of Hesse's blindspots), and most importantly, the concept of sacrifice and transmission of the mantle of authority and wisdom. The first story, I think, most directly and profoundly demonstrates this as Knecht, the Rainmaker, sacrifices himself in order to regain the villagers faith in the Rainmaker's ways, and to establish Turu as his heir and discredit Maro.
----- A thought on the next book: Where's Danzig? He started this most excellent of all threads. I think he should decide or at least heavily influence our decision.
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"Fundamentalism is a western religious reaction to Darwin. The text freezes, ideas freeze, because the alternative is a real terror, the terror that we are not the center of the universe and that it's all a series of odd accidents." -Chaim Potok
He sees Jewish, Christian, and Islamic fundamentalism as being similar in this way. That's just fascinating to me. What a brilliant man!
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quote:College People: Do you think it is possible for a religious group to be tolerant and allow for plurality of views and still maintain a clear identity and sense of purpose? If so, how do you do that?
Chaim Potok: That's a very serious problem. Within Judaism itself you will find a significant spectrum of difference in terms of responses to your question. For example, Jewish fundamentalist, the very orthodox, will say, "No, it is not possible. There is one reading of the Jewish tradition; all other readings are wrong."
To the extent to which a Christian group is a fundamentalist group, I would suspect that it would have to respond in the same way. But Judaism has a complex variety of readings, especially in the modern period. Rabbinic Judaism is much more than its specific orthodox or fundamentalist component. And this permits the Jew to maneuver with a very richly textured tradition that is more than 3,000 years old.
I can see where the problem would come into very serious play with specific Christian fundamentalism s I would suspect, though, that if a Christian fundamentalism looks deeply inside itself, it will find a spectrum of readings. It is inconceivable to me that a million or three million or half a million human beings will think and feel precisely the same way on any single subject. I think that we all finally ought to admit that while a system of thought has boundaries, the boundaries can be narrow or wide. Even the most fundamentalist of fundamentalism, if it really looks, will find fairly wide boundaries.
The trick then is: How do you respect one another? The alternative is disruption of a planet. It is no longer just burning people at the stake, throwing people out, excommunicating people or fighting wars. Either the species learn to listen--to listen--or we will simply disappear as a species. Now I submit that the price you pay for listening is far less than the price you pay for not listening and disappearing.
I'm not altogether certain that a fundamentalism of necessity has to argue that it is the only reading of the human experience in order to stay alive. There has got to be another way of articulating one's commitment to a body of ideas--a way other than saying, "I'm right and everybody else is wrong." And that's what we have to learn in the next half a century to a century, otherwise we are just not going to be around to talk to ourselves anymore.
From an interview with College People, found here.
[ November 13, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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Zalmoxis, sorry for not replying earlier. This thread kind of evolved into a discussion of works that I am not sure could be considered classics. In any case, I am more interested in older works. But I am not going to try to make this thread conform to my original vision for it. If a work I consider to be a classic becomes the next one we read, then I will drop back on in. So basically I do not care if people would rather comment on contemporary literature instead of classics, but I will probably not participate, especially if I have not already read the book. So I propose the Oresteia, but if no one else is interested, that is fine with me.
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Sure. I couldn't really remember what it was, but a quick google search refreshed my memory -- Aeschylus.
Is there a particular translation you'd recommend, Danzig? Lattimore? The somewhat recent Ted Hughes version? Shapiro/Burian? [this last one intrigues me because it purports to capture more of the syntax and imagery of the original Greek]
I probably won't be able to finish as quickly as with the Hesse book, but I'd be happy to join the discussion when I can. ---- Also: I think the nature of this thread is such that if Glass Bead Game readers still have comments or things to discuss we could continue to do that. Please don't think that the discussion is closed just because we've moved onto another book. For instance, we haven't talked at all about the Music Master and very little about Father Jacobus.
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This happened quicker than I thought it would.
I have my copy of the Oresteia and will start reading it tonight on the train home. My library only had the Ted Hughes translation [well, there were several transaltions from the 50s from people I had never heard of so I passed those up].
If I hate it, I will seek out a different translation.
Also: this edition has no forward, notes or anything. That's fine for a first reading, but if you have any good secondary materials [books, articles, or Web-available stuff] that you like and find valuable, Danzig, please post them. I like that kind of stuff.
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Thought I would post some links that might be helpful. The e-text is available here. This page seems to have lots of great links too, including e-text from MIT, and lots of study sites.
Perseus classics online has them listed separately under Aeschylus (the Oresteia is composed of the three plays, Agamemnon, the Libation Bearers (Choephori), and the Eumenides).
Here is another e-text version from University of Adelaide.
[ December 02, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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I have no recommendations for translations- the only one I even know of who is any good is Lattimore. Since you have the Hughes translation I will probably buy that, if I buy anything at all. I might just use ak's links.
Also due to schoolwork it may take me a while to finish reading, so if I am not around I promise I have not forgotten, I am jsut busy.
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I have very little to no classical lit under my belt, so, this looks like an awesome way to start! Count me in.
Are we all going to go with the same translation, for consistancies sake? Or whatever you can get your hands on, for convieniences sake? Either is fine by me, but am wanting to be "on page" if we're conforming.
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I think trying to impose one translation would be difficult so I suggest you read whichever one you'd like. But do let us know which one you choose and once you get into it what you think about it so that other readers can make informed decisions.
I don't care what translations we all read -- I just want them to be decent because my past experience suggests that there's nothing worse than a bad translation of a classic work.
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What constitutes a bad translation? I ask someone please walk me through this, because I'm very new to the entire subject. My comprehension exceeds my read literature.
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That's a great question, B. What constitutes a bad translation probably varies depending on the like and the dislike of the reader -- although there can be translations that are just awful because the translator not only takes liberties with the text but also gets things just plain wrong because he or she doesn't understand the original language [and perhaps more often the original context of the work] well enough.
I'd say -- if you have access to a library that has either the Ted Hughes or the Lattimore translation, read one of those. Otherwise read on the the e-texts that ak links to above.
------------- Comment on the text itself:
I forgot. How could I forget? I can't believe I forgot. I approached this text somewhat blankly -- all I knew is that it was about Agammemnon after the fall of Troy. I remembered the names Paris, Helen, Priam, Achilles, Menelaus, Clytemnestra, Cassandra. I knew that Agammenon was going to be bringing Cassandra home with him and figured the play might be about that -- but still I didn't know where the drama was going to come from.
Then I read the first pages -- the watchman's monologue -- and then the chorus -- and then the part about Calchas and the two birds and the hare and a faint memory stirs -- and then the phrase "the bloody footprints of Clytemnestra" -- and it all comes back in full horror -- Iphigenia. How could I forget? I can't believe I forgot.
The Herald is about to enter. So far the translation seems fantastic -- vivid, lively. Some well-turned phrases and piling on of the imagery but not too 'poetic' in that 'look-at-me-I'm-a-poet" way.
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My translation is the same one that's on all the online texts. I read something else translated by Ted Hughes. Some Horace? What was it? I forgot. Anyway, I didn't care for his translation much so let me know if you think his Oresteia is good. The translation makes all the difference in the world, particularly for things written in verse. The Iliad is like a totally different work in my several different translations. So the ideal thing is to read some out of as many as you can find, and pick the one you like best, I think.
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For those interested -- a translation comparison of the last part of the Watchman's speech at the beginningof "Agamemnon":
Ian Johnston's translation (ak's first link above)
quote: For my part, I'll start things off by dancing, treating my king's good fortune as my own. 40 I've had a lucky dice roll, triple six, thanks to this fiery signal . . . .
[His mood suddenly changes to something much more hesitant and reserved]
But I hope the master of this house may come home soon, so I can grasp his welcome hand in mine. As for all the rest, I'm saying nothing. A great ox stands on my tongue. But this house, if it could speak, might tell some stories. I speak to those who know about these things. For those who don't, there's nothing I remember.
E.D.A. Morshead (last link in ak's post above)
quote:For I can say, My master’s dice fell fair— Behold! the triple sice, the lucky flame! Now be my lot to clasp, in loyal love, The hand of him restored, who rules our home: Home—but I say no more: upon my tongue Treads hard the ox o’ the adage.
Had it voice, The home itself might soothliest tell its tale; I, of set will, speak words the wise may learn, To others, nought remember nor discern.
The translation available at the Tufts site (Herbert Weir Smythe is listed as editor)
quote: for my lord's lucky roll I shall count to my own score, now that this beacon has thrown me triple six.
Ah well, may the master of the house come home and may I clasp his welcome hand in mine! For the rest I stay silent; a great ox stands upon my tongue --yet the house itself, could it but speak, might tell a plain enough tale; since, for my part, by my own choice I have words for those who know, and to those who do not know, I've lost my memory.
Robert Browning (also from the Tufts site)
quote:For, that my masters' dice drop right, I'll reckon: Since thrice-six has it thrown to me, this signal. Well, may it hap that, as he comes, the loved hand O' the household's lord I may sustain with this hand! As for the rest, I'm mute: on tongue a big ox Has trodden. Yet this House, if voice it take should, Most plain would speak. So, willing I myself speak To those who know: to who know not -- I'm blankness.
Ted Hughes (not available online)
quote: The gods have blessed our master. They've blessed me too. They've made me the bearer of the news. Only let them bring the King home safely. Let me prostrate myself at his feet And then -- what follows, Better not to think about it. Only the foundation of this house Can tell that story. Yes, The tongue that could find The words for what follows -- that tongue Would have to lift this house's foundations. Those who know too much, as I do, about this house, Let their tongue lie still -- squashed flat. Under the foundations.
I think I like Robert Browning's, but I can't say why, exactly. Maybe only because I love him.
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I haven't read much of the Browning translation, but it seems pretty good -- clean, good syntax, nice imagery and rhythm.
The Morshead one strikes me as atrocious.
I really like the Ted Hughes translation I'm reading. If I had read the plays in the original Greek or had read several other translatins before, I'm sure that I would find it annoying -- repetitive, too abrupt, too stripped down, etc. But for me, the somewhat staccato minimialist flow works. It makes it easy to get what's going on and it really showcases some of the amazing imagery and trenchant phrasings.
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For the record -- I have not abandoned this thread. I hope others haven't as well.
Here's my proof in the form of, imo, provocative passages from each of the three plays (Ted Hughes translation).
From _Agamemnon_. The Chorus confronts Clytemnestra after she murders her husband and wonders at her act:
quote:Where is the right and wrong In this nightmare? Each becomes the ghost of the other. Each is driven mad By the ghost of the other. Who can reason it out? Reason, fails, mind is a casualty Of this bloody succession.
From _Choephori_. The Chorus urges Orestes to seek revenge against his mother:
quote:Now let your will, like your grief, Be stronger than life. The past is stronger than life -- Nothing can alter it. Now let that terrible past, like a tempered weapon, Become your will. Be fearless, to rip open The future's secret. The justice you bring Is stronger than life. Assume that strength.
From _The Eumenides_. Athene to the Chorus of Furies, distraught over Orestes' acquittal:
quote:You call for justice. But God speaks through me. Only I, Pallas Athene, Possess the key That unlocks the thunderbolt of Zeus. But the time of brute force Is past. The day of reasoned persuasion, With its long vision, With its mercy, its forgiveness, Has arrived.
A quote frome Slate movie critic David Edelstein's review of "Troy":
quote:(The fate of King Agamemnon will make those who know The Oresteia —- merely the cornerstone of Western drama —- scratch their heads.)
I have no objections to changes in the story made for Petersen's film -- although I probably won't be seeing it anytime soon. Not because I'm against seeing it but because it's not high up on the list at the moment.
But here's the thing:
The story of Troy is all well and fine and epic. But if you want the whole story, you really need to read the three plays that form the Oresteia. Not only is the work a thrilling, bloody, tragic family drama, but it is an important bridge between the world of Troy and the world of Western Civilization as we know (and live) it. It hints at the move from the tribal to the civic.
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Athene commends the Chorus of Furies for agreeing to drop their blood vengeance claim against Orestes and integrate themselves into the life of Athens:
quote:The presence of God in persuasion Draws the poison fangs of evil, Undoes the knotted mesh of brooding hatred. In the gentle combat of persuasion Good wins over good with goodness And none lose.
The Chorus replies:
quote:There is no hope nor future For a land Whose mind is split Into two, and where each half Strives only to destroy the other. Give Athens a single mind, a whole mind, As a marriage Gives to two strangers One child.
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Zal, that's an awesome quote! <Edit: Both are awesome but I was referring to the second one.>
I abandoned the Orestia for the moment and not sure when I'll finish, but I am digging your commentary on it.
My friend Sasha who got me to actually read Kafka instead of keeping the wrong idea I had of him and so ignoring him forever, has started a story which I really like. If he writes more I may ask him for permission to show it to you and get your commentary on it. To me it seems as much above the routine aspiring writer stuff as Saudade's art is above the typical college art student productions. Which may mean that I'm biased but I don't think so.
[ August 09, 2004, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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I know what you mean. I mean, there are Tolstoy novels I haven't read yet. So it's hard to make myself read the works of aspiring writers. Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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Oh, I don't mind reading the works of aspiring writers. It's just that my analysis is, well, you know, worth its weight in platinum (I'd say gold, but I much prefer the coolness and weight of platinum). .
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but I havent been able to get the book till recently, please keep the discussion going!
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