quote:You like the idea of a strong central government with the power and will to solve social concerns; this should appeal to you.
I like the idea of a strong central government which loudly uses its voice to concern itself with society in a public manner. I support a government that is trying to convince children to read. I don't support a society where the President can send a parent to jail for not reading to the children, I like one where the President is unafraid to expound on the virtues of reading to children in the State of the Union.
When you blow the whistle, you are asking for a silent display of force. You are a mobster calling for a hit. It's like Arya in the last book of Martin's series.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
A mobster calling for a hit is certain of the results that will played out. When Tony Soprano orders a whack, it isn't a request; it's an order.
Blowing the whistle is nothing close to an order. It's voicing a concern. This is not a public place - this is their living room. If you are at a party, you don't loudly confront someone over social faux pas(es).
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What if the person didn't know it would be offensive? It's better to let the person in charge (and whose house it is) quietly speak with them instead of pulling them to the carpet for a public humiliation.
quote:Irami, when the whistle-blowing feature appeared, your main concern was that it would be used against you. I have to say, this is not a flattering picture you are painting of the mods.
Well, no. I think I made that pretty clear seeing as how that distinctly isn't the case. Would it have been so hard to find this:
quote: Blowing the whistle is nothing close to an order. It's voicing a concern. This is not a public place - this is their living room. If you are at a party, you don't loudly confront someone over social faux pas(es).
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What if the person didn't know it would be offensive? It's better to let the person in charge (and whose house it is) quietly speak with them instead of pulling them to the carpet for a public humiliation.
I've already addressed this.
quote:Tact would presume after a public statement about feeling generally uncomfortable, then a private e-mail to ask courtesy and to state that I'm seriously offended or affected, then a whistle blow, but if I ever blew the whistle, I'd start a new thread about it immediately because if so and so's behavior was affecting me, it would probably be affecting other people as well, and it would be better to expose and talk about the behavior so that everyone can learn.
In this forum, it starts with you voicing your concerns generally and publically, because if you are offended, you probably aren't the only one and it makes everyone else feel less alone in their concerns.
If someone starts a thread with the F-word. Are you going to blow the whistle, or are you going to reply, "We don't appreciate that sort of language here."
Katharina, I think you are on the wrong side of this one.
posted
Irami, you don't know what I personally do with posts I don't like. Do some research, dear, before you assume I'm on the wrong side.
Since the only research method possible is asking me, I'll pre-empt you.
1. Post right after. "I don't think that's really appropriate for here." 2. Blow the whistle. "Kathy, you might want to take a look at this." 3. Assure poster of their worth. "I'm glad you're here. Have you tried [funny thread of the day]."
Unless it's someone I know well, in which I'll threaten a swirlie.
Dang it, Ralphie is five thousand times better at this than I am, and she does it naturally and with the Funny.
quote:1. Post write after. "I don't think that's really appropriate for here." 2. Blow the whistle. "Kathy, you might want to take a look at this." 3. Assure poster of their worth. "I'm glad you're here. Have you tried [funny thread of the day]."
And you don't see steps two and three just a little be disingenuous. It's the whole problem why girls in high school are catty, and guys just grunt and deal with it and have the situation over with. We figure out what about each other we like, and what about each other we don't, and work through it quickly and openly. The last two sentences are huge generalizations, btw. Don't spend a post being indignant about the analogy.
posted
You don't like "I like you, but I didn't like that post"?
Not every disagreement is a war. ----- You've missed some of the excitement. I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with your generalizations, except to point out that depending the social group, it doesn't always end at high school.
You don't know me well enough to make your jabs have points.
posted
Does all of this happen with the first post? I thought we are talking about three different actions. If not, don't you want to see the response before you wake up the Janitor?
posted
No, I'm disappointed. I think use of icon in those situations signals a breakdown in communication and ethic. I think it's icky, opportunist, childish, petty, and disrespectful to the mods.
posted
You know, I've "blown" that whistle exactly four times, for posts that most certainly deserved it. While I'm sure there ARE people who're easily offended, and tempted to report things that offend them -- it takes all kinds -- I don't think, based on the rarity of deletions around here, that it's a common event.
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In most cases, I think it is better to directly confront offensive, bothersome, or upsetting people. If someone bothers me, I will almost always prefer to tell that person how he is affecting me and to stop it. The amount of tact I use depends on the amount of respect I have for the offender. The only cases where I won't do this are if I think doing so might endanger me, if it is extremely inconvenient to me, or if I feel that my words will have no effect. The first two instances are almost never true online, and I am confident enough in my oratory skills to make the third instance rare (and even then I'll usually try).
So yeah, when my downstairs neighbor and his girlfriend are screaming at each other and throwing things through windows and bleeding on the concrete at the bottom of the stairs, I'll call the police instead of asking them to be quiet. And when that group of teenagers starts having a long, loud pool party at midnight on a Wednesday, I'll call the courtesy patrol instead of telling them myself that the pool closes at 10 on weeknights. But I can't think of a comparable situation online.
I think that blowing the whistle without any attempt at talking to the offender--at least on Hatrack--is not very polite. To me, whistle-blowing is what you do after other efforts have failed. Jumping straight to the whistle before even mentioning that you are offended is a sucker punch, especially if the person is unaware that he has been offensive.
I recognize that many people don't like being confrontational; I know many people who go to great lengths to avoid it. And, yes, these people should not be forced to do things that make them uncomfortable; neither should they be forced to put up with offensive behavior from others. So, if you really can't make yourself talk it over first, then you shouldn't feel too bad about jumping straight to the whistle. But I really think it'd be best for everyone involved if we could all make an attempt at discussion before alerting the authorities.
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While somewhat weathered in appearance the post seems to be doing just fine. Rotting concerns were discovered to have been unfounded. A splinter caution is still in effect, but the protruding nail on the eastern side has oxidized to the point that it has crumbled away and is now flush with the surface of the post.
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posted
I can say I've never blown the whistle on anyone or any post that wasn't first informed that I found what they were saying to be offensive and innapropriate.
Which means if I haven't told you, seriously, that I didn't think it belonged at Hatrack, I didn't blow the whistle.
Sorry about the interruption. I think that this has been a good, perhaps even needed conversation, but my mind wanders sometimes -- with predictable results.
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posted
kat, that's good. Just so you know, that wasn't aimed specifically at you. Or anyone else, for that matter.
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posted
There's only been two kinds of posts that have prompted me to the whistle-blowing. One, frankly, was Baldar, who was in a class by himself.
The other kind of post that has prompted the lunge is the very frank and explicit sexual descriptions and innuendo, usually trying to be passed off as humor. The whistle-blowing move then was a "think of the children" moment. I don't want to start a discussion about its appropriateness any more than I want to display porn in a high school. The discussion and decision-making has already occurred - it's not for Hatrack.
posted
Have you ever received any indication from the mods that anything was done? (Posts edited/deleted, someone saying they'd been reported to the mods, etc.?)
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quote:I wonder if there is a correlation between whistle-blowers and death penalty adovocates . . .
No--or rather, at least not in my case--because I'm opposed to whistle-blowing in any but the most extreme situations, but I am in favor of the death penalty.
quote:It isn't a death penalty. It's more like a letter to your congressman.
It isn't either. It's calling your homeowners association when your neighbor puts up a clothesline or when it has been three weeks since he mowed his lawn, and I don't like that sort of behavior either. It's even worse here, though, because, as saxon pointed out, there's no real need to fear here, which takes away the fear of confrontation you might feel in real life.
While I agree with Irami's stance on whistle-blowing, I think some of his comparisons are a bit harsh and I don't agree with them.
All I want is to encourage people not to resort to anonymous whistle-blowing in situations where polite confrontation alone (whether in the thread or in an e-mail) might have the desired effect, or in situations where past inaction by the mods has made it clear that the behavior, while distasteful to you personally, is within the bounds of acceptability for Hatrack as a whole.
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posted
Kayla: Yes. Just twice. *thinks* Maybe a third time, but it would have been years ago.
quote:anonymous whistle-blowing in situations where polite confrontation alone (whether in the thread or in an e-mail) might have the desired effect, or in situations where past inaction by the mods has made it clear that the behavior, while distasteful to you personally, is within the bounds of acceptability for Hatrack as a whole.
Anonymous is a key-word here.
For the second, though, I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's weenie, but it's more likely to hurt the person doing the chronic complaining that the one they are reporting. It isn't like the mods publish a tally of who gets reported the most often (although I would LOVE to see that), so the only stake is Kathy's good will. I don't think Kathy puts up with a lot of crap, so I don't see being a whiner being much of an advantage.
quote:While I agree with Irami's stance on whistle-blowing, I think some of his comparisons are a bit harsh and I don't agree with them.
quote:For the second, though, I don't see what's wrong with it. I mean, it's weenie, but it's more likely to hurt the person doing the chronic complaining that the one they are reporting.
Agreed. I'm just trying to encourage people not to be weenies, and not to waste the mods' time.
posted
Well, see, that's why you're nicer than I am. I just figured that weenie was its own reward. I didn't even think about the mods - that they might want to be spared weenieness.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The female dog. Sheesh, Tom, you weren't kidding? I wonder if she reports them when they are spelled the goofy way Ralphie does it.
Also, what about Patrick and "go the frick away?"
It's the same thing, isn't it? Same basic intent, just changing the word slightly. Or Ralphies use of Jebus.
See, that's the thing I never got. The same people who told me not to cuss were saying "Gosh Darnit" and other fool things. The intent was the same. Even had the same beginning letters. Shoot. Fart/Fudge. Darn. Boogerhead. Why are these more acceptable than the words that the auto-censor would take out?
posted
That's a good point, Kayla. Why aren't the substitute swear words as objectionable as the actual swear words.
The argument leads to more words being objectionable than more words being given a free pass, however.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
swear words = bad substitute swear words = not bad
"Hey! That's not right!"
THEN...
(1) swear words = bad substitute swear words = bad
--OR--
(2) swear words = not bad substitute swear words = not bad
---- Whether you prefer (1) or (2) probably depends on your swear word philosophy, but out of courtesy, it's up to the what the mods would prefer.
It has changed - there is a lot more swearing (real and otherwise) than there was before. Sheer entropy, maybe. I know I do a considerable amount of fake-swear-word brain-storming, which I'm now starting to feel guilty about.
posted
That's only because I did some real-world swearing the other day, and I'm thinking the fake swearing was a gateway. It's probably a horrible sign that I only do the RWS to/about Pilkingtons. *thinks*
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quote:Ahh, then my job is done. And no whistle blowing was involved.
Okay, that leads to a question. Do you use the whistle-blowing for stuff you don't like, or for stuff you are pretty sure the mods don't like?
Because, honestly Kayla, you blow the whistle on me for dagnabbit and I can just imagine the laughter ringing through Hatrack Secret Headquarters (HSH).
I thought the whistle-blowing was for the stuff that either the mods have clealy expressed a negative opinion about and do no want on the premises (the explicit sexual stuff), or for posts that were so completely Unmaking as to threaten nuclear war (Baldar again).
I know there is a way to ensure that no swear words appear on the site, so if they do appear, then the mods have allowed us the freedom to use them. In that case, it's a gray area. Speaking to the person is not only the polite thing to do, it's almost your only shot.
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Is that why Irami and I differed so greatly in details while being (I believe) similar in desires for forum? He was thinking of a reader reporting what they find objectionable, while I was thinking of reporting what the mods find objectionable?
posted
Kat, the "no whistle blowing involved" was facetiousness. I'm pretty sure I've never blown the whistle. Even when Baldar was here, I don't think I would have used it, had it been available. If I'm offended, I tell someone. Of course, if they offend me, I rarely say anything, but I'll jump in if I think they are being unfair to someone else. And while some I might find some things too racy, I won't report those either. I'll remind them that there are 12 year olds here, but I won't report them.
I did write to Kristine once about Ced and to Kathy once when I received an e-mail from redskull that said he'd been spammed by people at Hatrack and it got him fired because I thought they should know about that, but I didn't think they'd be able to do anything about it.
But I seriously don't think the whistle should be used very often. The mauibabe/EllenM situation is one instance, maybe. And a spammer, like we had last year would be an instance, but not for the b-word. Heck, they're using the s-word on network TV these days. And every other word is used all the time (except for the f-word and then only in Schindler's List.)
posted
Skipping to the end to let you know that the b-word I'm referring to is the one that could be used without scrutiny in a discussion about mating dogs. But when applied to females being unpleasant, I find it unacceptably misogynistic.
Bastard has a legitimate use. No, wait... oh well, you know what I mean. Here's a question, do you think Bastard implies a male more than a female?
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posted
i swear, i didn't see this thread before. pooka, is this your way of telling me that you blew the whistle on my pirate name?
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posted
Was that you, celia? Well, I guess I should have tried emailing you. I just get so jealous with everyone saying you are so cute all the time and... Now this really can be like an episode of Springer.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have blown a whistle only once that I remember. That was in the midst of a heated discussion, where I was only posting on the "sidelines" as it were. The discussion was borderline between two people who strongly disagreed to begin with. One of them, to me clearly stepped over the line with a personal insult. Maybe I should have e-mailed that person and told them that I didn't think their statement was appropriate, but given the amount of vitrol that was going on I really didn't want to open myself up to that. I believe that person knew exactly where the "line" was to begin with since before that point through numerous posts they had been very careful to stay on the good side of it. Maybe it was cowardly, but I don't regret it and don't think I should have done it any differently.
The person who the insult was directed at didn't actually appear to be offended either. But, if I had been in that person's shoes I would have been greatly offended and my feelings would have been hurt. I also didn't want the thread to die and I felt that if a mod made a strong statment then, it would bring the thread back to more civility in what was a good thread, if heated. If it had gotten any worse, I suspect the entire thread would have probably been deleted.
My statement to our gracious mod was very specific as to my objection and I was very surprised at how quickly she reacted. I'm pretty sure that if I had it to do over again that I would do the exact same thing.
Normally, if it is a case where I feel the person would reasonably listen to a "manners" complaint I would post my objection in the thread for all of the world to see. In that particular case case feelings were already so heated that any "manners" objection would have been deconstructive rather than constructive.
posted
Blowing the whistle never really occurs to me. I'm glad that the option is there, and I think that there is certainly a time and a place for using it, but it's never been something I've thought to do when things have gotten heated. I'm the same way with a car horn though; I never think of leaning on it until after I'm out of the situation in which it would have been useful.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
My sister used to say there was never an excuse to flash high beams at someone (while we are on car analogies). I thought this was very odd of her. I guess she had a friend who wouldn't/couldn't fix a perdiddle (one headbeam out) so they spent a prolonged car trip getting flashed a lot.
Also, my husband was once the only one to get a question right in driver's ed, which was "What do you do if you see a kid chasing a ball into the street and you are moving too fast to stop or swerve?" The answer was "honk". I don't know if I got the context entirely right, but that was the gist of it.
Now the question is, is honking/flashing equivalent to using the whistle, or is it equivalent to swearing in the first place?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
It can be equivalent to swearing, depending on how it's used. But it's not really analogous to the whistle because in the case of the horn/lights, you are directly communicating your displeasure to the offender, whereas with the whistle you are bypassing that level.
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posted
Oh, I don't really think that honking and whistle blowing are equivalent actions--it just occurred to me that I never think to do either one, and thought that I'd mention it. Honking is much more like posting back, telling the person that you didn't find what they wrote to be appropriate.
posted
Why the thread title has reverted: If we are going to treat substitutions as if they are the real word, I guess that would make it quite alarming and equivalent to the hand gesture thread.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Honking warns the person, blowing the whistle is silently telling someone else. They are not equivelent at all.
pooka, I think you are more comfortable telling someone else that you are uncomfortable than telling the person themselves. That's not unusual, but it's really okay to tell someone if you don't like what they are doing. You can phrase it politely ("YOUB, your name is definitely piratey, but I don't feel it is appropriate for Hatrack. Is there a variation you could use that would be funny and piratey but not offensive?"), or you can do it straight out ("What is up with the name? That's not cool."), but it is better to inform someone.
They may not realize it's offensive, and that way they don't get blindsided.
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quote:Now the question is, is honking/flashing equivalent to using the whistle, or is it equivalent to swearing in the first place?
There is a furtive aspect of whistle blowing that has nothing to do with honking. I think that whistle blowing is closer to keying the car of a dangerous driver. At the very least, calling the police.
But this isn't real life. Nobody's has to worry about bodily harm. I think that's what disturbs me the most, \if people are blowing the whistle on a message board, how do they function in real life when the stakes are higher. The gesture wreaks of incredible entitlement.
In this setting, I think the option is inherently deceitful, and the extent it is used without specific warning is the extent that the person is being deceitful. Then again, if you can make excuses for yourself, as the saying goes, the devil will be satisfied with you if you are satisfied with him.
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