quote: PHILADELPHIA (Oct. 2) - Three high school football players were charged Thursday with sodomizing younger teammates during a hazing at a preseason training camp.
The teens have been under investigation by authorities and a grand jury in Pennsylvania for allegedly sexually torturing the teammates with a broomstick, pine cones and golf balls during the Aug. 22-27 camp in Preston Park, about 125 miles north of Philadelphia.
State police said the alleged victims, a 13-year-old and two 14-year-old boys, were threatened, beaten and then violated with foreign objects covered in a pain-relieving cream. Two of the suspects are 16, the other is 17.
The suspects, members of the Mepham High School football team in Bellmore, N.Y., face a list of juvenile court charges, including involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, kidnapping, aggravated assault, unlawful restraint and false imprisonment.
Sixty players and five coaches from the team attended the camp. Officials said the coaches slept in a different cabin from the players and were unaware of any problems until a parent complained to a principal at the high school.
None of the teens has been arrested. They will be asked to voluntarily travel to Pennsylvania to face the charges, and warrants will be issued if they refuse, prosecutor Mark R. Zimmer said.
Investigators are still trying to determine if charges against other students or adults are appropriate.
The Long Island school suspended three players from the team pending the outcome of the investigation, and the Bellmore-Merrick school district canceled the team's season.
The names of the players who were charged were not released Thursday and it was not immediately clear if the defendants were the three suspended players.
Larry Spern, an attorney for one of the suspended players, would not confirm whether the boy he represents was among those charged. He said he could not comment on the charges.
Attorneys for two of the other suspended teens did not immediately return phone calls.
While the teens were charged as juveniles, Zimmer said he is considering whether to transfer the case to an adult court. If they are charged as adults and convicted, the teens could face significant jail terms.
''We are hoping that Mr. Zimmer will do everything in his power to ensure that (the suspects) are prosecuted as adults,'' Robert P. Kelly, an attorney for two of the alleged victims. ''This goes way over any juvenile hazing.''
Bellmore-Merrick Superintendent Thomas Caramore said he was ''encouraged that the process is moving forward and that justice will be served.''
That just pisses me off to no end. One, that kids actually do this to other kids and secondly, that it went totally unknown until after the camp when the kids got home. Just... ::grrrr:: it ticks me off.
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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This is sickening. There should be consequences for the "kids" (yeah, right) who did this, consequences for the coaches - whose job it was to know what was going on "in the other cabin", and consequences for the parents who raised these little criminals.
posted
I think these kids should be charged as adults, that way when Bubba and his friends corner them in the laundry room ,they'll know how it feels.
Posts: 190 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Just another shining example of what happens when the golden boy athletes always ALWAYS get a pass on everything.
These boys have probably been getting away with stuff since they started pee wee football. It's about time somebody finally put their foot down.
Of course, the perpetrators haven't really suffered any substantial punishment yet, so I guess the foot hasn't quite been put down.
Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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when i read things like this i wonder where they got the idea. i wonder if this was initiation for them.
i don't mean that in any sort of mitigating of guilt way. they deserve punishment for what they've done. i just wonder if there isn't a group of 19's that deserves some punishment for doing it to them and a group of 21's that deserves it for doing it to them, ect.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I think these kids should be charged as adults , that way when Bubba and his friends corner them in the laundry room ,they'll know how it feels.
I agree - if they're going to "act like adults" (as many of the teens and/or younger children involved in these hazing acts say it makes them feel mature - I'm not talking about the victims) then they should be charged as adults.
Posts: 667 | Registered: Aug 2003
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The offending kids should get the jail/pison time and then the assistance that might give them the opportunity to rebuild something out of their life. This opportunity should come AFTER the victims' needs have been attended to and the offenders hae reached a point of shame for their actions and a willingness to provide some restitution. The parents of the offending children need to be shot. Or severely whipped with a buggy lash. Or sentenced to a life of hard labor. They need to pull their f---ing heads out of their a--es and get a clue. As did apparently their parents. I hope we are all done with trying to make up for depression era sufferings and "my lawn is greener than yours" b.s.
End Rant:
The world's gone mad. With any luck it'll just implode soon.
quote:Just another shining example of what happens when the golden boy athletes always ALWAYS get a pass on everything.
These boys have probably been getting away with stuff since they started pee wee football. It's about time somebody finally put their foot down.
I see no evidence for this assumption. When I was a football player (and a swimmer), I did not "get a pass on everything."
quote:The parents of the offending children need to be shot. Or severely whipped with a buggy lash. Or sentenced to a life of hard labor. They need to pull their f---ing heads out of their a--es and get a clue. As did apparently their parents. I hope we are all done with trying to make up for depression era sufferings and "my lawn is greener than yours" b.s
How do you know the parents of these kids did anything wrong? When groups of teenage boys get together, they can egg themselves on to do things that would horrify any of their individual parents. I bet these kids were not the only ones involved in this. "Peer pressure" has become a much ridiculed term, but it is a very real phenomenon. Obviously, their parents failed to raise children morally upright enough to stand in the face of their teammates and refuse to take part in this hazing. Obviously, they raised children weak enough to in fact become leaders of the hazing in order to gain the esteem of their peers. But, in the absence of more concrete evidence of the parents' own personal depravity, I think this is a bit harsh on them.
Both of the above posts seem to mitigate the blame on the perpetrators by passing some of it along, to institutions, or to the students' parents. There may certainly be issues to address there, but the blame for this lies in the individuals who were there and took part, and, to a different degree, the people who were there and did not intervene.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Shan, I don't believe that. I think the world(of humans) has always been messed up, but we, as a race, are moving forward.
Males have been using their winkies to dominate the world for millennia. If you read much about the Spartans, well, ew, it was considered part of military training to be sodomized by an older man. Boys from age seven went trough this)In ancient Rome, men had sex, but only the more powerful man could penetrate.) (like dogs)
Now, it may still happen, but we as humans have decided it is very wrong.
It is very sad that this happened to these boys. I wonder if the older boys had been victimized as well. Maybe this will be the end, or the steps toward the end, of this nasty cycle.
quote: Males have been using their winkies to dominate the world for millennia.
First off: If you don't put "EVIL males" before that statement, it will REALLY piss off a lot of the men here.
Second: What makes you think it's our "winkies"--as you so eloquently put it--that allowed us to dominate? Men's superior physical strength is what did it. Our "winkies" had nothing to do with it.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:First off: If you don't put "EVIL males" before that statement, it will REALLY piss off a lot of the men here.
That wouldn't be accurate though, as illustrated by the Spartan example she gave, where sodomy was considered normal and where 'evil' and 'decent' males alike probably did it.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Except that in their society, it was considered normal sexual behavior, and so the men weren't using sex "to dominate the world."
Nick's other point is a very good one. The domination of society by men in the past is much more likely to be due to the fact that in the past, physical strength was more important, and men are typically physically stronger.
The winky, then, is just a symbol for something else.
quote: That wouldn't be accurate though, as illustrated by the Spartan example she gave, where sodomy was considered normal and where 'evil' and 'decent' males alike probably did it.
Okay, the Spartans of Ancient Greece is ONE example of how that's partly true. What about others? Who ruled in Rome? In Byzantine? In Egypt? All men. Not because of their "winkies".
Not that I believe that men should have ruled, I just resent the implication that the only reason why men can do anything at all is because of what's in between their legs.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Although, it is the testosterone that leads to the formation of a winkie AND creates the superior strength. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Before everyone grabs their pitchforks and torches, maybe what needs to happen is an investigation into the nature and the context of the crime. What also needs to happen is physcological assesment of those involved, to see if all we can do for them is lock them in their cells and throw away the key as so many of you would like.
*/devils advocacy*
Actually, my devil's advocate side isn't much differant from my regular side. It might still be possible that these kids can help out society in the end. However, I don't see any need in punishing them for, what is it, 25 years? When they could be doign something to help others instead of becoming another drain of society. Thats pretty much my views on a lot of crimes of this nature.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Another thing is that there is no way for the coaches to have known that there was a problem. I don't know about you, but i wouldn't want people constantly watching me while I slept. It becomes the victims responsibility to let people know when something like that happens.
*/devils advocacy*
While its true that the coaches couldn't have known about it at the time it was happening wihtout actually wathcing them 24/7(which coaches shouldn't an can't do.)
However, I have a feeling that the coaches wern't very perceptive people to not know something was wrong the next day. Perhaps there needs to be a feeling of more openess in the camp.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I AM REALLY SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was really going for the "we have come a long way as a species" effect, and I did not think the "winky" comment all the way through!
I was actually meaning within male sub-societies(which, mostly, have ruled the world), that homosexual acts were used to dominate other MEN. I was trying not to go in the direction of the man-woman-power-winky connection. My poorly-made point was that sexually invasive hazing goes back a long way, and used to be part of initiation in many secret, or not-so-secret, clubs. Now, we think it is wrong, and that is good.
I am very, very, very sorry to offend you fellows.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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The "boys will be boys" thing and "girls will be girls thing" needs to end. I really don't care how far back in history it goes. Just because it's "historical" doesn't mean it needs to continue - or are we all saying that historically speaking, slavery should be continued? (Which it actually is, under the new name of trafficking, but that's another thread)Or "Jew" hating and persecution? Or the subjuagation of women, because we are the "weaker" sex? Or child abuse and neglect? Create your own list of historical commonalities and then see if it's something you really want in this world for you or your children or your family.
Granted, perhaps I started ranting a little too soon, but do any of you recall the incident in this past year which involved hazing (off campus) and the parents just didn't get why their little darlings who had done the deed should be punished? After all, that might "ruin" their chances for college, successful careers, etc.
Whatever happened to ethics, common sense and decency? Why shouldn't parents be held accountable? We are, after all, their first teachers, and while they are considered "minors" by law, we are responsible for them. That includes teaching them how to treat others respectfully, decently and as a valued human being. It includes parents teaching their children that they do NOT deserve to be treated in ways that devalue them, degrade them or hurt them. And it includes parents teaching their children ways of keeping themselves safe.
And when minors treat each other in the way the article describes, there should be swift, just punishment and reparation. TO THE VICTIMS and their families. By the perpetrators and their families.
I know - a pipe dream.
In a day and age where professional athletes and actors and politicians and musicians get away with this crap, how could any parent be expected to hold their children accountable to common decency. Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I wouldn't be opposed to the parents bearing financial responsibility for the actions of their children. But beyond that, when it comes to jail time or other punishments, you hold responsible the perpetrators of actions, not their parents.
I have known teenagers who came from very well-meaning and moral parents who nevertheless did awful things. Haven't you? I just think it assumes way too much to say that the parents never tried to raise them. There are many other influences on our children besides the parents.
As for the opening of your post, I'm trying to interpret whether you are intending to pick up the mantle of the "men are responsible for the ills of our society" rant . . .
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I remember one time in a high school close to mine they sodomized this one guy with a plunger and burst his appendix or something and he almost died. THAT was a shock.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I just see one too many stories, articles, studies about children gone astray and in the words of mack's earlier thread (slightly paraphrased) where were the parents? Or the responsible adults?
I wasn't on a man-hating rant.
Mercy!
Please re-read.
If anything, I was on a parent-bashing diatribe (directed to those parents - which I have NOT seen here on Hatrack) that leave their children to the tender mercies of all those "other" influences - and don't take the time to pass on those values that I spoke of earlier -
perhaps I judge too harshly, maybe they weren't taught those values either and I just live in some fairy-tale land -
but I don't think so -
if anything, our culture has found one too many excuses for ill behavior and not any reason for taking responsibility and cleaning up the mess.
If that makes any sense at all -
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
And hey, this thread is exactly why we need an angel smilie. Is no one impressed that I haven't said a word about men? :angle smilie:
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Let's see - is this the comment that is bothering people? I believe it mentions both sexes . . .
quote:The "boys will be boys" thing and "girls will be girls thing" needs to end.
If you all would like, I'll reverse the order.
The "girls will be girls" thing and the "boys will be boys" thing -
everyone happy?
I still think that perpetrators need to be punished and the restitution (of whatever sort) needs to come from the perp and family to the victim and their family.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Peace. I promise I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Rather, I noted the same ambiguity Kayla pointed out, and I was trying to ask if that was where you were headed.
Which is completely different from the parent issue. On that point, I simply don't want to take it for granted that if the kids do bad things the parents must be lousy parents.
quote: I remember one time in a high school close to mine they sodomized this one guy with a plunger and burst his appendix or something and he almost died. THAT was a shock.
HOLY @#*$, can you imagine the pain? These are the guys who need to meet Bubba.
Posts: 190 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I really despise the "boys will be boys" and "girls will be girls" excuse that people use to justify some peoples their actions. I just want you to know that.
quote: I still think that perpetrators need to be punished and the restitution (of whatever sort) needs to come from the perp and family to the victim and their family.
I mean this in a general term, and not an accusation sort of way: can you think of any sort of restitution from anyone that can be given to those kids?
And just to point out my opinion on the matter:
Kids of their age doing what they were doing, do NOT always fall upon actions that parents have taken in raising their kids. They are old enough to know about the value of someone elses life for themselves.
Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
This thread made me want to cry, but I squeezed my dingle real tight and I didn't have to cry anymore...
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Yeah T, I can think of lots of ways of making restitution or amends.
I'll just start with a small homegrown sample for y'all. Nathan and his dad throwing around a soft ball at his dad's house. Apparently, he accidently threw it a little off and it hit his dad's windshield. His dad told him "don't worry - it's okay - accidents happen." Neither of them told me.
Instead, I spent a week with a child who refused to take compliments on positive behaviors and well-done schoolwork, who didn't want the chore money he had earned, etc. This was puzzling to me. Until his dad dropped him off the next weekend and I met them outside and saw the van. Hmmm.
I asked what happened. Got the story above, along with "Really, it's okay, he doesn't need to worry about it." I sent Nathan in to open some rootbeer and said to his dad, "I understand it's an accident. That doesn't mean he isn't in some way responsible for helping to fix the problem that he created. This is important that he be given the opportunity to make amends. This is how we do it - here at home, at school and at church. I want you to back this up."
(Remember - Greg is newly returned to Nathan's life.)
Nathan brings out the rootbeer, they drink it and then Greg talks with Nathan. Yes, the poor child has been feeling bad and ashamed. Yes, he WOULD like the chance to to do something to make amends. He obviously doesn't have the money for a new windshield but he can do other things. They agree on an afternoon's worth of chores and (Nathan's idea) a "sorry" card. A written apology and promise to be more careful. He immediately started feeling a little more cheery and upbeat -
It's places like this where it begins - where children learn that even when they accidently break or hurt or whatever, they are responsible (and competent and capable) to make amends. Parents help guide them through that.
Depending on the victims in the situation, I would definitely say that the following would be in order, with parental involvement at all levels- this is in no particular order. Perhaps it should be fairly concurrent.
Written apologies. By the entire family to the entire family as well as the individual perp to victim. Crime does NOT happen in a vacuum. It affects the intended victims, the family, the community - crime laws in old England a couple of a hundred years ago recognized this.
Some sort of graphic, medically correct discussion about what sorts of injuries the perp's caused the victims. (I can guarantee the victims have been receiving this from their doctors.) Again - entire family involvement. This could help to take the blinders off and perhaps allow for an "a-ha moment - I/he/she really did hurt someone. In a way that I/he/she would not like to be hurt."
Community service - with family involvement. For quite some time.
And then individually? Earning the money to pay back all or part of the medical bills. Teens, right? They can flip burgers and do other things to make some monetary restitution.
Some ideas for you - but then, maybe I'm harsh.
I'm also the mom that insisted her 8 year old last summer pay twice what he had stolen from a friend's house floor (with that caveat, the total came to maybe $2.50), write an apology and confess to these people at church before Sunday School. Yes, it was hard on him, and yes I wish I could have skipped having to be the firm parent. But, you know what - he hasn't done such a thing since. And I don't think he will again.
IF anything, I need to spend more time teaching him how to keep himself safe. He knows how to be gentle and thoughtful. He knows how to say stop and no. He has me and other trusted adults to check in with about things. I think he still needs to learn martial arts . . . but given his seizure disorder, I really don't want him being bashed in the head. What a puzzle. Ah me! The joy, the challenge and the privilege of parenting.
I'll stop blathering and have some breakfast and get ready for church.
Have a lovely day!
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
That was very well thought out, Shan. I think those are good ideas. I don't think any of them are particularly harsh. But then, I totally agree on the "double what you stole" thing -- and I've made my kids do it, too. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
those all sound like excellent suggestions for punishment and reform, but restitution?
both of your examples are things that can be replaced. money? glass? come on. these kids didn't take or break something they can replace.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
That's true, celia. But being responsible for the medical bills is a step in the right direction, neh? That may be as close to restitution as is possible. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't think the book can be thrown hard enough against these "kids". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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,they'll know how it feels.
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But then, I totally agree on the "double what you stole" thing -- and I've made my kids do it, too. 
