posted
The only part I don't agree with is making the family do community service. They should already be financially responsible. On top of that, they have to face the fact of what their kids did. But as far as actual punitive measures . . . I dunno. I still say you punish the people who commit crimes, not other people you decide are also to blame.
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posted
Ya, cause if so, you'd be seeing a whole lot more celebrities or people in Entertainment being punished.
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posted
Well, Icarus - I am saying that the teen perps pay off the debt, not the parents. And I am suggesting that families that work through these things together are more likely to learn more AND(no "stats to back this up or even research, just good ole life experience) probably less likely to re-offend.
I repeat - crime doesn't just affect the victim. It affects the family, friends and surrounding community.
In a way, the perps are saying they don't belong to community by doing what they have done. Families pass along values, beliefs and ideals - ways of being and acting - I think it would be best for the families on both sides to participate - both in the healing and in the restitution.
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I intend to respond, but I'm waiting until I can sit down and be thoughtful. Right now I'm just posting quick off-the-cuff drive-by postings in breaks between grading. So, in the meantime . . . simply thanks!
posted
One thing I don't get-trying them as adults? Are we saying an act of violence is more the action of an adult than that of a child?
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posted
Very good point, Toretha, one that I've been thinking about. To put it bluntly, you can argue yes and no both ways and get good and bad points from each argument.
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posted
Have any of you watched the Lyon's Den with Rob Lowe? We flipped by it a couple of times, and yesterday there was a rich suburban version of the hatfields and the mccoy's that ended quite badly. But, the profound thing that was there, was that the parents had instilled the culture of hate into their children. And basically once the sensitive minds have been molded sometimes you end up heading down a path from which there is no point of return.
I'm not saying that parents are always responsible.... but sometimes they are.
posted
Oh, I agree, AJ. In fact, I would say that the majority of the time parents are probably responsible. I just don't like the idea of assuming as a society that this is so. That the apple doesn't fall far from the tree may be a truism, but that doesn't mean that it's always true.
Look at the converse: haven't you ever known anybody who had rotten parents and still managed to become morally upright? It may not be common, but it does happen. If this happens, if people can rise above poor parenting, then the opposite must be able to happen as well, and people blessed with all of the best parenting must sometimes come out selfish, mean, or violent nonetheless. So to punish the parents based on what is ultimately an assumption about their devotion and their committment seems wrong to me. And if, after umpteen years of parenting, you are forced to reckon with the inescapable conclusion that, despite the best of intentions, and despite a true and honest effort, you have failed at your job, you have raised a morally corrupt person, then that seems like punishment enough. To do more seems like an unfair slap in the face.
Actually, I would go even further: I think that for our society to survive, we must parent as though we believe the character of our children depends solely on our actions, taking our responsibility as seriously and sacredly as possible, but we must as a society actually pretend the opposite in many circumstances. If we don't, we can't help but draw some pessimistic conclusions. That kid's parent is a drunk? Don't trust her, she can't possibly be a good person. That kid was molested? Keep him away from kids, because you know what he's learned to do. And it cuts the other way: if we accept that people who were not present at the commission of a crime, and in no way encouraged it, and in no way knew it was happening, bear responsibility for it, then we lessen the responsibility shouldered by the people who actually perpetrated it. I think over the last ten or twenty years, it has become common to find other people to distribute blame to, and the result that we have had is a decreased emphasis on personal responsibility, to the extent where there are entire philosophical schools of thought that will argue that personal responsibility is nothing but an illusion. I think that when we lessen our belief in personal responsibility or actions, society suffers. I know that Shan is not saying this, but I fear it as a logical extreme that blaming people who were not directly involved in a crime can--and has--been taken to.
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quote: PHILADELPHIA (Oct. 6) - A prosecutor said Monday he will seek to have three high school football players tried as adults on charges they sodomized teammates during a hazing at a preseason training camp.
''The impact these crimes have had on the victims and on their families is too terrible to consider,'' Wayne County District Attorney Mark R. Zimmer said.
The teens, members of the Mepham High School football team in Bellmore, N.Y., are accused of sexually torturing a 13-year-old and two 14-year-old boys with a broomstick, pine cones and golf balls. Two of the suspects are 16, one is 17.
Attorneys for the defendants did not immediately return calls for comment. Attorneys for the alleged victims released a statement supporting Zimmer's decision ''to prosecute as adults all three youths charged in this terrible assault.''
Sixty players and five coaches from the school attended the training camp in August in Preston Park, about 125 miles north of Philadelphia.
The coaches slept in a different cabin from students, and said they were unaware of any problems until five days after returning from camp, when a parent complained.
The school district on Long Island suspended the three accused players from school and canceled the football season.
The three had faced juvenile charges that included involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, kidnapping, aggravated assault and unlawful restraint.
Meanwhile, the 40-year-old father of one of the suspects was found dead in his North Merrick, N.Y., home over the weekend, police said. An autopsy was scheduled to determine the cause. The man's name was not released.
::scurrys back to work::
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posted
You are right, Icarus - I am not saying that we need to place the blame on other people for someone else's actions, at all. I mistrust and disagree with a lot of the victimization/entitlement BS that seems to permeate our political and social mores.
What I am advocating for is responsibility. And I totally agree that parenting is a sacred responsibility.
Which is one of the reasons I think parents need to be included on every aspect of the perpetrator's attempts to right or amend the cruel wrong they have done. We don't stop being teachers and guides for our children, even in their late teens, and we are certainly still responsible for them at that age - unless they have filed an action and been approved for adult status. And it's always possible that the parents might have something to learn at the same time.
*shrugs*
At any rate, I am deeply disturbed by the reported death of one of the teen's parents.
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Is there a way to involve the parents without making it too much like simply punishing them? Like maybe they oversee the perps doing their community service, or something like that?
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I have had my son actively involved in "giving back" to his community through service work since - well, forever. I really can't imagine another way of doing things. We live in our community and our community is important to us, so we offer our time, talents and help where we can. It's not something we do because we did something 'wrong" - it's something we do, because I believe it is important, and I am trying to teach my son that particular value.
However, I know there are those folks who don't think they need to be involved in their community at that level. To my mind, that creates a separation between the individual and the community. We teach our children our values and mores - by example and doing "it" with them.
I think it would be integral to rounding out the juvenile criminal justice system that families are involved together - we keep saying philosophically ( by that I mean the researchers, novelists, politicans, advocates, etc.) that criminal justice is useless without opportunity for improvement, growth, amends-making, etc. This would be an excellent area to practice that philosophy.
I don't think that it is fair or correct to say, "My child screwed up - oh well - he/she can sit in juvie for some period of time, pay $100.00 and clean up litter for a month." What does THAT teach the child? Or the parent for that matter.
IMHO, it teaches the child that consequences aren't really linked to the action and it teaches the parent that they really aren't responsible for guiding thier child in directions that are thoughtul, courteous, respectful.
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So, in the meantime . . . simply thanks!![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
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