quote:What expectations are fair when it comes to asking God to meet that trust?
Well, here is where you can totally cry foul because my answer is: the expectations that are fair can be found in scripture.
[And I happen to personally believe that _The Book of Mormon_, _Doctrine & Covenants_ and _Pearl of Great Price_ do an amazing job of setting out these expectations (and the trials that often come with them) along with the Old and New Testaments].
I wish I had a different answer -- it'd make things much easier. But it goes back to the whole subjective experience expressed in words things. That's the set up.
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I believe the universe works, and all of its methods can be comprehended if the information is provided.
I believe people are basically good, and will work for good once they are given to understand the full ramifications of their actions.
I believe that torment, physical or emotional, should be prevented, and one of the goals of civilization is to reduce the amount of torment out there.
I believe it is the duty of all sentient life to struggle against the tendency of all things -- physical and metaphorical -- to entropy and/or calcify.
Beyond that, I like to leave my options open.
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Zal, that's one thing I've always wondered about: why is it that God chose to make man's relationship to Him (from the Christian perspective) dependent so much upon the word? I've always felt this to be the most unfeeling way to have a relationship. It's like the opposite of communication... well perhaps not the exact opposite, but I think you get the point. In a relationship, communication and interaction are pivotal; and yet God's chosen venue to reveal himself to the world is interactive only insofar as man's ability to draw different conclusions from the same texts.
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It is dependent on the word - on scripture - for the initial communication, but the interpretaion also comes from the Holy Ghost. That's how God talks to us - in our minds and in our hearts. To our understanding. Reading the scriptures is the raw material - the course outline - but the Holy Ghost is the whisper that brings it home so we remember.
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I understand all of that -- my question was WHY have everything start with the word? Aside from being written in human language and being transposed by human writers, is there any nature-of-God type of reason that He wouldn't just skip the middle man and meet everyone where they're at?
posted
I think someone touched on that - why not meet face to face and remove all doubt? If part of our experience here is to stand more on our own and to learn to have faith, meeting face to face would remove a great deal of agency.
From a Mormom perspective:
We are here on earth to become things and to learn things that we could not while we were still living with God before we came. If he came in person and had a chat that removed all doubt, then there wouldn't be any point to coming to earth at all.
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I still never get it. Why not just send us all to heaven from the beginning? I like mysticism myself. Especially a weird sort of mysticism where there are no barriers between God and human beings. Somehow that resounates better with me...
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quote:You can't go shopping for a God. You can't go to Target and find one that suits your fancy.
You can't go shopping for a God, but essentially, you can shop for the best way to worship that god.
quote:You want God to come and explain why rotten things happen in life. And I would say, if you apply the effort, you can get that explanation. If you are teachable, if you give the word a chance to make sense, and after that give those explanations to grow in your heart a little bit... I promise you that you'll get those explanations. At least, that's what I pray for for you on a pretty much nightly basis.
This makes me feel like I'm a slacker, that my efforts weren't enough, that I've done something wrong, something to deserve what happened and continues to happen.
quote: Absolute proof of His existence -- especially to those who do not already believe -- damages free will
Just because you know that God exists STILL doesn't mean you will worship him. You have that choice, your free will isn't limited at all.
quote:unmet or unrealistic expectations
And I acknowledge that my expectations are unrealistic and will remain unmet. Still hurts.
quote:Mack obviously feels that having willingly performed those things she was asked to do and purposefully avoiding those things she was asked not to do--all the while never losing her faith in Christ in spite of the nearly unbearable situations that she has had to endure--that at minumum her relationship with God might afford her some kind of peace or comfort.
Right. Peace and comfort, right? Or do I have to wait until death for that?
quote:Good thing my belief isn't based on flaming sky writing.
You didn't get the memo?
See, what I don't get was that I wasn't just a cookie cutter Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. I struggled to educate myself in my faith, struggled to attend mass and other religious events. I opened myself to the voice of God.
I even did things I didn't want to do, like offer the olive branch to my parents at least on three occasions. I got badly burned each time, but we're supposed to not judge and forgive, right?
I didn't get any of the comfort. Instead, I got illness and loneliness. Maybe it's because God isn't in my life?
*shrug*
But it makes me figure, either God isn't paying attention and doesn't care, or I did something pretty bad to deserve this.
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Mack I know the feeling. Like you've been forgotten? That God can't NOT know what is going on, and since I'm still miserable and it isn't fixed, then I must be forgotten. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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This was big for me, because I was so thrown when my mother died. Some people tried to comfort me by saying it was all part of a plan, but I didn't appreciate that because that means the Lord killed my mother on purpose. I simply don't believe it. All that leaves, however, is that its just part of life. That sucks.
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So why do we live? To slog through this life and find the greater glory after death? But that's ONLY if you followed God's rules and his plan, but you had no idea if you did or didn't and have no way to judge until you're already dead.
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That's why I like the message in a book called The Amber Spyglass. It's message was that life on earth matters more than looking for an after life.
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Mack, I don't believe that faith necessarily makes life peaceful OR comfortable. It can help one find peace when life is hard -- as it often is -- and draw on comfort that comes of feeling His love.
I do not know why He has given you the challenges He has. But I know he does care. And I don't believe you "did something pretty bad to deserve this" either.
When I feel I am being challenged more than I can bear, I try to remember that I am unrefined silver in His hands.
quote: There was a group of women in Yerushalayim that met every week to learn together. While studying the book of Malachi, chapter three, they came across verse three, which says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver." This verse puzzled the women and they wondered how this statement applied to the character and nature of G-d. One of the women offered to find out more about the process of refining silver, and to get back to the group at their next class.
The following week, the woman called up a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him while at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest, beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.
As she watched the silversmith work, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire, where the flames were the hottest, so as to burn away all the impurities. The woman thought about G-d holding us in such a hot spot, then she thought again about the verse, "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver."
She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the entire time the silver was being refined. The man answered yes, that not only did he have to sit there holding the silver, but also he had to keep his eyes on it the entire time it was in the fire. If the silver were left even a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed.
The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "But how do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy - when I see my image in it."
If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that you are in G-d's hand, He has His eye on you, and He will keep holding you and watching you until He sees His image in you.
Being alive hurts, often. But I believe that all the pain has a purpose.
Mack, I am sorry for your pain, and I know that this is not much of an answer. But it helps me, sometimes.
Oh! And I do not mean to imply that anyone who is not "feeling the fire" right now has reached perfection. Just that He does not think they need that particular method right now, for whatever reason(s).
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We pray that everything in life may happen according to God's will. I think we should never turn this into: All things that happen are God's will. God doesn't do things to you, nor to punish you nor to reward you. Our deeds are our own doing, and yes if we act following the Word we'll be blessed but that's not the same as God directly giving us rewards. In the past, our ancestors have chosen to do wrong again and again. It's our task to try to do better. It's our own free will to make that happen. Sure, but how can you manage if you are in a war or in another desparate situation, or constantly in pain?
The secret is, that God will ease the pain if you'll only let him. Just like Annie said. It doesn't solve the situation but it does change the way you experience it. And that's what counts.
I know this sounds too easy, I am comfortable in a safe country. Still, I have come to believe that no matter what happens, as long as there is love in the world you can always feel well despite everything.
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That is actually a cool story. Sometimes you have to create the joy and meaning in your own life if you cannot believe in God. Like my threads, or a life's work.
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Mack, God can ease any pain, you just have to be willing to release the cause of that pain. Set down the burden, completely, bad feelings and all, and walk on. You won't walk alone.
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"God can ease any pain, you just have to be willing to release the cause of that pain. Set down the burden, completely, bad feelings and all, and walk on."
What's interesting about this is that, as far as I'm concerned, once you've set down your burden, bad feelings and all, you don't need God to ease your pain anymore.
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Perhaps, Tom. But for me, the main reason that I can set down my burdens is that I know He will carry them for me, and help me deal with them. It's not just ignoring or denying them. It's asking for His help to bear what I cannot alone.
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But what about when you do that, and nothing is taken up, and you're told answer is that it's part of His plan and that it must be a burden you can and are meant to bear?
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quote: God will ease the pain only if you let him?
In my own opinion it isn't so much an easing of pain as a finding of purpose. I think people can bear just about anything if they know there is a good reason for it and they know that there is something better waiting just over the next ridge. I think that perhaps the most asked question in theology is "Why do people suffer if God exists?", or more relevantly, "why won't God take away my suffering?"
I think that there are several answers which encompass pretty much all facets of the gospel. For example, our suffering is made less when we build a community whose members truly care for one another and who bear one another's burdens. This community is key to the philosophy of christianity for it is in such communities that people learn to be Christians:
quote: And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another?s burdens, that they may be light;
9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life?
10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?
11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.
You can see that in this instance the idea of forming a community to help one another was central to their idea of becoming Christians.
And from the Bible:
quote:Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one? even as we are one:
And in this case we can see that one of the reasons Christ prayed for his followers to become one was so that later converts could see the difference between Christians and other communities and believe in Christ.
Now then, while the communities we build are supposed to help us to ease our pain it is not the only support we have. Christ spoke of the comforter:
quote: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
What is the role of the comforter? It is to teach us so that we can understand how our pain fits into the bigger picture, and with that understanding comes comfort and peace.
Of course neither of these sources of comfort tells us why we must suffer pain. I think that the source of our pain is threefold: first we suffer because God has granted free will to those who abuse it (and we all fit that category at one time or another). Other people cause us suffering and God cannot restrain them unless he wishes to truncate their free will.
quote: For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
quote:And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.
9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.
The second reason, and often the more painful of the three, is the suffering we bring upon ourselves:
quote: Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.
quote: And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.
quote: I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions
The third and final source of pain is from the natural world in which we leave. Disease, famine, birth defects and so on are the natural result of laws of nature which have their free rein in this world. This one is perhaps the one which people most blame God for, for it seems to some that God controls all of nature and bends it to his will; hence the reason that many European christian churches I have heard of disdained lightning rods for they assumed that god would intervene between them and nature. And yet, as I have posted before, it appears that God places the onus on us under the heading of freewill in such cases:
quote: And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild cfood, and that not by the hand of an enemy... And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have power to become my sons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt bear their infirmities
Perhaps it is no comfort at all, but maybe a way to deal with the pain is to try to identify the source of it and do what may be done to deal with it. Is the source of my own bad choices? I will see that I am more circumspect in the future and I will do what I may to right the wrong now. Is it the result of someone else's poor choices? I will find peace where I may and work to build a community where people help rather than hurt one another. Is it the result of a natural law of this world? I will seek to God for comfort and strengthen my faith to overcome the trial.
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I second the community idea. It does suck when the source of your pain is the failing of the ability to be part of a community.
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I've known people that claim God delivered them from a drug addiction. I've known people that claim God delivered them from alcoholism. I've known many many people who claim to have been delivered from their sins or their situations; I've even known somebody who claimed that God had delivered them from homosexuality (though curiously he still seemed to struggle with that burden). In fact, most of the people I know who have experienced God's deliverance tell a story that involves a lot of struggling.
And I've known just about as many people who never had their prayers answered, who were never able to find a lasting peace in Christ, or, in a few cases, have reason to believe that if the God of the Bible is for real, they were abandoned by Him--they usually come to this place because they've been in that same state of struggling but they don't feel any relief as a result of their efforts. And I'm quick to add that this is for no lack of trying, believe me.
Personally, I take my deliverance full on. I like my divine intervention to be dependent on God's will alone.
The Question of Evil, as it were, is further complicated by the abandonment of those who have no free agency with which to counteract the nature of this world. Every time I see that a baby has been left to die in a dumpster, I have to question the Omnipresence of God the Shepherd. I cannot claim to know the will of God, of course, but in my experience Deliverence is a dish best served to those who are able to serve themselves.
Note: this is in MY experience. Your mileage may vary (thanks Kat for the cool new phrase).
posted
I can't believe that. I know what I'm like and what happens to me when I'm left to my own devices. I can't lift myself out of hardly anything.
In My Experience:
Reading the scriptures for me is like the experience I have heard people talk of in talking mood drugs. It takes a while to take hold, and you need to take it everyday to keep the levels up in the blood, but when done everyday, the world is brighter, you're more at peace, and moods are brighter. It hasn't worked with anything else, and I can feel the difference of when I study and when I don't. That can't be coming from me, because for a long time, I refused to do it on the vague, rebellious grounds of WANTING it to come only from me. I can't do it on my own. There has to be something more to it.
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posted
Mack, I was told the same thing: when I eventually came to the place where my faith in God caused me more pain than joy, and I had to abandon it, the reaction of believers was that I must never have been a true believer in the first place.
And I understand why a believer can never question/doubt God and must therefore interpret people as being at fault for the failures of their faith, but this also counts as yet another argument of convenience, imo.
God is real, God wants you to have faith in Him; if things don't work out the way God promises than you obviously didn't have faith in Him.
It's kind of a circular argument but there's no possible way to respond to it, either.
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quote:Reading the scriptures for me is like the experience I have heard people talk of in talking mood drugs. It takes a while to take hold, and you need to take it everyday to keep the levels up in the blood, but when done everyday, the world is brighter, you're more at peace, and moods are brighter. It hasn't worked with anything else, and I can feel the difference of when I study and when I don't. That can't be coming from me, because for a long time, I refused to do it on the vague, rebellious grounds of WANTING it to come only from me. I can't do it on my own. There has to be something more to it.
But how long? I studied and fervently believed in Scripture for five years. Did I not believe enough? I know I certainly did, completely, with my heart and my hands and my head. But things never got better. I was told that it was a burden I was meant to bear, that the struggles had to mean something, that I was strong enough to deal with it.
That's a BS answer. There IS no answer for it. Crap happens to people and it can't be avoided. There's no purpose in it aside from ones we can vaguely connect later. There's no magic answer from Scripture. There's no comforting action on God's part. Why, in the five years that I spent devoted to him, did I not hear any other answer than "Carry your burden alone?" There's no answer for it.
And if scripture is like a mood medication, it certainly takes an awfully long time to kick in.
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quote: 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
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Mack, I'm going to have to rely on your knowledge of me that I'd never be flippant in saying what I'm about to say, and that I care about you, and that I'm not setting myself up as knowing everything.
It only works for me with the Book of Mormon. All scripture is worthwhile, but the Book of Mormon is just power. Reading it, you can read how it is the answers to the prayers of dozens of prophets, and that it was given to us at this time of history because we'd need it. There are many reasons the Lord saved it for this time, and one of them is that we'd need it.
I wish I could give another explanation, but my only honest suggestion is to try that. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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That you may have less need for God because you can lift yourself out fine?
Maybe that's your challenge. I mean, some people are tried by wealth, and some by poverty. I'm all for the being-tried-by-wealth line, but it's still a trial.
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I have read and studied the Book of Mormon. Found it very tough to get through because of the language.
And I know you aren't flippant, Kat. I was actually waiting for SOMEONE to say that it's the Book of Mormon and not other Scripture that works.
Catholicism is the wrong religion! Wasted years!
I'm not sure that's the issue, which approach to God to take. It wouldn't matter if I were Jewish or Quaker or Mormon. I'd still have the same issues I have now.
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You did kind of set it up. Nevertheless, it's still true for me. When I finally started doing it (at age 21. I have no excuse.), it was like a light turning on. I was so much happier, gentler, and all around better that I was thinking we could solve half the problems in the world if everyone just read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes a day. If you try again, I'd read Ether 12. It talks about weaknesses, and I love that chapter.
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I'm painfully aware of my weaknesses. And I really don't buy it that they're a testament to strength or that God sees them as a way to Him.
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(I'm also well aware that I couldn't be LDS. Secretism bothers the heck out of me, and there's much secretism. But it's a personal thing, not me denouncing anyone. )
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i just want to pull together a lot of what has been said about god and belief and all in this thread.
here's what we have; god answers prayers based not on what is asked for, but what is best for people, according to a plan which is beyond our comprehension. as such, there is no demonstrable difference between what happens to a person who prays and what happens to a person who does not pray (in a time of need) except in the psychological processes of the two people (prayer may allow people to accept their fate or feel more secure in their future).
because we must 'choose' to believe in god, there is no way to objectively show that he exists, nor the nature of his existence, because anything which prooved his existence would diminish our ability to deny his existence.
we cannot expect our lives to be better or worse based on our belief in god; god gives some people difficult lives as trials and struggles, which allow these people to grow, while he gives other people blessings. Obviously these two co-exist but in different proportions for different people.
so basically, we have described a god which cannot be known, which cannot be relied on, belief in whom can only serve to facilitate the acceptance of the world around us, and to whom nothing can truly be attributed to (or perhaps more specifically, to which everything must be attributed).
where have i misunderstood?
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Just a note – my major struggle with God did not end with a sense of lasting peace. It ended with a blinding realization followed by a response of “You have GOT to be kidding! Please say you’re kidding” <silence> “Nononononononononononono . . . .” ::second major struggle commences::
Mac, I’ve posted it before, but it bears repeating: IMO the whole point of the book of Job is what God tells Job’s friends at the end. They’ve spent the whole book telling Job that he must have done something to deserve his suffering. Maybe he sinned. Maybe his kids sinned. Maybe he didn’t sin actively, but just wasn’t faithful enough. At any rate, it must somehow be his fault. Job insists that he hasn’t, that he’s being persecuted unjustly. God shows up, and tells the friends they’re wrong and Job is right. It’s not a great answer, because it still doesn’t tell us why people suffer, but it does tell us not to blame the people who are suffering. Let me repeat that, very specifically – mac many of your problems are caused by the fact that you have an illness. It is not caused by anything you did or failed to do. It doesn’t mean you weren’t faithful enough or that you picked the wrong religion. And it’s perfectly okay to yell at God about it.
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posted
Kerinin reminds me of something else I meant to mention.
I personally don't buy the idea that objective proof of God's existence (putting aside the notion that objectivity itself is a misnomer) would negate the nature of our free will.
How is it that faith and free will are supposedly interchangeable, anyway?
Take the story of Abraham, for instance. A man who's life is filled with miracles and the voice of God. According to Genesis, there is nothing subjective about Abraham's relationship to God. And yet, we have very clear examples of Abraham obeying AND disobeying God. He DID go to sacrifice his son. He did NOT wait for God to give Sarah a child.
The terms of Abraham's relationship to God were unaffected by the definite awareness of God's existence. Free will functions just fine with concrete evidence of God.
So I come back to asking what criteria for establishing trust with God are realistic. You may say that if God wrote his message in big fiery letters in the sky it would be giving too much, thereby taking too much away from faith. Believers often like to say that God does not want a bunch of robots serving his will.
But again I have to object. We do the very same thing with our children. We tell them how the world works, and insofar as they are able to understand it, we explain it to them as well. We also impose order on our children, making them stand in single-file when we move them in groups, requiring that before they open their mouths, they must raise their hands. We treat our kids like robots every single day, and I submit that though their capacity for understanding and their ability to act are not necessarily as free as that of the adult, their hearts and minds enjoy every bit as much free will as we do.
To put it another way, imagine you have before you two food items and you must select one of them. There are many factors involved in your process of making that choice. You may even have sampled one or both of them in the past. But even if you knew everything there was to know about both choices, you would still have to make that choice of your own free will.
So I guess the resulting question of this little thought train is: why is it more valuable to God that men BELIEVE Christ is their saviour rather than KNOW that Christ is their saviour? It's a tough distinction to make since most people who believe in Jesus would also say that they "know" that Jesus is God, but I hope my question is understood nevertheless.
And if your answer to that is "because it's the only way we can grow as human beings", I have to ask: what about the nature of faith, specifically, encourages growth?
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Uncle Ben said it best: with great power comes great responsibility. In this case knowledge is power and so the more knowledge one gains the more responsible one is for actions against that knowledge.
As a couple of examples: Satan and his minions were cast out of Heaven because the rebelled against God at a time when they were living in his presence. The cost for their rebellion was eternal damnation. Men on earth rebel to a greater or lesser extent against God every day, but the consequence of their rebellion is less because their knowledge is less.
In the Doctrine and Covenants we learn a bit about the type of person who becomes a son of perdition- essentially humans who are so evil that they win the grand prize of evil along with Satan:
quote: They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come?
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
Another way to look at it: a mediocre person has neither great failures nor great successes. As a person develops his abilities and talents his capacity for both success and failure increase proportionally.
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The way I see it is not that knowing past faith that God exists removes all trace of free will, but makes choices mean less, and makes it almost impossible for someone who chooses wrong to continue choosing.
Taking your food example: you have plate A and plate B before you and you have to choose which one to eat. You've done reasearch on it and put in a lot of time and effort, and even asked the server to give you hints. But in the end you choose yourself without copmlete assurance that the dish you choose wont do much to you. If you choose right you get to enjoy it's splendor, if you choose wrong you wont enjoy it so much.
But if the waiter tells you wich dish is the best and which one was prepared poorly, then you can of course, choose the bad dish, but who would? And what would you learn by choosing the right dish?
There are two problems with analogy. The first is that it really wouldn't matter that much which food you choose, but we can all pretend that it does so that's OK. The second is that when you make a moral choice, the consequences of each choice vary depending on what you know of it. In this example, if the waiter told you that one dish was poisined and you choose it anyway you would get vary sick. But if the waiter didn't tell you, you wouldn't be as sick. Which makes no sense in this analogy so I'll go ahead and explain another example.
Plenty of people here have pre-martial sex, which most of them wouldn't if they believed in God. I personnally think this is a poor choice and can harm future relationships but I'm not overly concerned with it. They think what they are doing is perfectly fine and as a consequence they are not damaged by it. But imagine if they knew for a fact that God existed and that He forbid pre-martial sex. If they made that choice then, do you think they could live with it? Knowing for certain that they had preformed an act that would have such consequences?
Note: I think that knowing you did something wrong is different than doing something wrong you have no clue about. I'm not making a moral statment about anyone's choices, just pointing out what those choices would mean if God did exist.
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I know the feeling. Like you've been forgotten? That God can't NOT know what is going on, and since I'm still miserable and it isn't fixed, then I must be forgotten. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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You did kind of set it up. Nevertheless, it's still true for me. When I finally started doing it (at age 21. I have no excuse.), it was like a light turning on. I was so much happier, gentler, and all around better that I was thinking we could solve half the problems in the world if everyone just read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes a day. If you try again, I'd read Ether 12. It talks about weaknesses, and I love that chapter.
