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I find it interesting that if it turns out God does not exist, there will be a lot of people who were significantly underestimating their own inner strength.
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The thing is -- and I'm speaking as a former teacher here, myself -- you're both saying that God is a phenomenally BAD teacher.
"Enrolling in school," you argue, "is empirically better than NOT enrolling, so anyone who faces a trial is better off than someone who doesn't."
But in a situation where God only permits the trials for educational purposes in the first place, what is gained by not permitting only those trials that will actually be constructive and lead someone to, for example, a higher plane of existence (or even Godhood?)
Is FAILING a trial picked by God better than PASSING one? If so, why? Why, for example, has Anne Kate led a life that has led her to Mormonism and a better class of Heaven, when Caleb has led a life that took him in the other direction?
Both Anne Kate and Caleb have been shaped by their trials, right? And God picked and permitted those trials, right? And God KNEW how those trials would turn out, right?
So why would God send Caleb trials that He KNEW would result in Caleb's receiving a lower-class Heaven, if God's goal is to help as many people to "good" Heaven as He can?
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I don't like the personal examples. I'm not willing to say who in our company is going to what heaven. Do you have any hypotheticals?
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Sure. Instead of "Anne Kate" and "Caleb," let's call them "Hobbes" and "Karl Ed."
Or you can invent some hypothetical people, if you want, with the same general history:
1) Someone looking for something more decides to switch churches, and apparently lucks into the right church. As long as he or she sticks to the rules, he or she is guaranteed a spot in "good" Heaven.
2) Someone belonging to the right church becomes disillusioned for some reason and leaves. Unless he or she sees the error of his or her ways, he or she is now relegated to a worse afterlife than he or she would have had had they never been born into the right church in the first place.
Both of these hypothetical people are who they are because of their reactions -- PREDICTED reactions -- to trials posed them by God. So why does God want Hypothetical Person #2 to leave the church? And why doesn't God want Hypothetical Person #3 to care one way or another about His church?
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In your examples, Tom, the actions of the people are the result of either blind luck or else being doomed to failure from the beginning. In your scenario, what do you consider to be the place of agency?
"If they keep all the rules" is a major condition. Considering the more you know and the more light you are given, the greater is your responsibility to live up to that light, not everyone is being judged with exactly the same criteria.
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It kind of comes down into whether your faith lends your views to predestination or free will. It might also be that someone thinks that the world is painted on their eyeballs by a madman (to paraphrase DesCartes).
Me, I'm of the free will variety. I do believe in God's omniscience and omnipotence. I also believe He follows pretty much a hands-off approach. He doesn't throw as many tests as we think and a lot of what we think of as tests are just the crappy parts of living in this world. How we handle all of it, though, is how we are judged when it is said and done.
Remember, though, that in the concept of free will, we don't just suffer the consequences for our own actions, but often times suffer the consequences of other people's actions. If I drive through an intersection and another car plows into me because the other driver ran a red light, well, it's the other driver's fault, not God's.
Free will, if you think about it, is simply that web that draws us all together. You make your choices, I make mine. Sometimes they are at cross purposes, sometimes they work together, most times they never meet. But it is human.
If a parent abuses a child, the parent has used (and abused) their free will to harm an innocent, knowingly. The child is the victim and punishment for the parent may not come until after this life. Or it may wear on the parent every day of their life. The child, though, won't see justice here. What could be done in this world to ever repair them, to make it so that it never happened? It can't be in this world of bricks and mortar, blood and bone. How could it be?
I do believe, however, that after this life, we will be salved of our injuries and probably revisit those we have injured.
I remarked earlier about how one has to put aside what has happened to them and move on to find solace, both in themself and from God. It's true. Look at it from the physical and spiritual sides.
Physical: A great crime was done to you. You are the victim. It hurts, it is pain, but the real marks and bruises, those visible, have faded with time. There's probably anger and questioning on the part of the victim, there's also the devastation done to one's self esteem and worth. And it is a scar that is put on them each and every time they look in the mirror. They don't always see themselves as their own person, but see themselves as the victim of another person. You can't heal as long as you allow yourself to be that victim. You remain, no matter what, in that person's power whether they intend it or not. You continue to put yourself under their swinging blows or vile words. That person may never strike you or say anything to you again in your life, but in your heart and mind the blows and words ring again and again, echoing through the days. So what do you have to do? Force it out of your life. You can't go back and change it. Revenge will never settle your soul and living under its weight will crack you to your foundations. Forgive the perpetrator of the crime against you. Say to yourself that you can never understand what caused them to do it, that you can never undo what has been done, throw your hands up and walk away from it. Let it go, no matter how hard it is. No longer define yourself by those things done to you, but define yourself by your own actions. Don't carry the perpetrator's baggage.
Spiritually: You have to release and forgive. Emotionally wrenching as it is, as hard as it is to do, you have to forgive to clear yourself. It tells God you have risen above what happened, it says you are now taking responsibility for your OWN actions. It is in affect, saying, I am an adult and I will bear myself through my days. It also tells God that He is more important than the person who did that to you. That you believe more in God's redemption than the crimes perpetrated by a man of clay and dust. It is about transcending the tragedy and getting on with your journey in life. We're all judged based on our OWN individual journeys. Why have your journey set purely by a tragic event that you had no control over. Be your own person, that, I believe is the crux of God's gift of free will. Your OWN person. No one else's.
Sorry for the ramble.
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Sopwith, I would be interested to hear how this take on forgivness applies in my " grandma " situation. THis is exactly the kind of forgivness that doesn't quite make sense to me.
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AJ, let's face it, your Grandma is a bit of a wacko, at least from the perspective we've been given. Her values and actions don't help you along in the least bit, but apparently give you tons to worry about.
Why does it matter what she thinks? Are you bothered by not measuring up for her? If her beliefs and actions aren't ones you are willing to respect, why respect her opinions of your life? Why have her tell you what's wrong constantly and still try to follow the path you feel is ahead of you? And why have it be something you have to carry around like a millstone around your neck?
My maternal grandfather spent a good portion of my life telling me what I was doing wrong. How I needed to go into the Marines and put my "silly' dreams behind me. Told me how I needed to grow up and be a "Man." He also spent his life trying to earn money and prove to others how much he had earned, what a big man he had made of himself. I only saw him when he visited the shopping center he owned in the town I lived in. And then, once, I happened to drive by my great aunt's house on the way to coach a soccer game. My grandfather's car was there and he had made no effort to contact me when he got to town (it was an 8-hour drive from his home to mine). I couldn't stop because I had 15 eight year-olds waiting on me. As soon as the game was over, I went back, but he was gone. He wasn't at ANY of the hotels in town, nor had he stopped at the one restaurant there that he liked. He had arrived and left without saying a word or even leaving a message on my answering machine. My years of annoyance turned to hate and anger towards him. All of the "advice" he had given me just ate right into me, it had reached a boiling point and no longer would I have anything to do with him. It festered for years. Until my Mom called and asked me and my wife to come to his nursing home bed. We drove to Virginia Beach and I spent a few hours at his bedside. A once proud, strong man lay in a bed, slack-jawed and struggling to breathe. His eyes couldn't focus on anything, he never acknowledged anyone's presence. He was more helpless in his age than I had been as a babe in my mother's arms. He laid there, his life sloughing off by the moment. Helpless and his lifelong advice and badgering hadn't changed me to his will, had only poisoned me against him. And I found myself empty and aching. I couldn't do anything for him. No matter how much he hurt me or how much my life didn't meet his expectations, I still hurt. I did the only thing I could, I forgave him and let my heart feel love for him, another human being, someone who lived and loved and strove and hoped against hope that his life path was the right one. He passed away the next day and it did hurt. But it hurt the way it is supposed to. It hurt because of the loss, not because of the rough times, rough times that I had been carrying around for years and years. He had only wanted the best for me, the same as I, we just had very different ideas on how to get there.
I'll be perfectly and blatantly honest. I'd give my eye teeth to have him back here now and have the chance to live with him in this different light. I understand now better his motivations and perhaps, as things move along better for me now, he'd have a better grasp of my accomplishments.
Let your Grandmother have her say, but don't carry it around as a bad thing, no matter how, admittedly, whacked she is. Love her just for the sake that she apparently loves you enough to make the effort. Forgive her lack of understanding and show her the better way by your own actions and successes.
Sorry, that's the best I can do.
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"I remarked earlier about how one has to put aside what has happened to them and move on to find solace, both in themself and from God. It's true."
I agree wholeheartedly, actually. But in the context of the original point of this thread, I can't help wondering what part God plays in this, beyond working as a personal source of psychological comfort.
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Eh, sorry, just a struggling and striving mortal here. Sometimes I've just got to shrug my shoulders and look sheepish.
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I think this does tie in with perceptions or non-perceptions of God.
quote: I'll be perfectly and blatantly honest. I'd give my eye teeth to have him back here now and have the chance to live with him in this different light. I understand now better his motivations and perhaps, as things move along better for me now, he'd have a better grasp of my accomplishments.
You still hold out hope that with your further personal growth, the relationship with your grandfather would be a 2-way street if he were alive today, even though it wasn't in his lifetime. But while he was alive it wasn't a two way street.
This seems to me to be how some people here feel about God. Why keep asking and asking when you never get any real acknowledgment for the way you are now. To some it seems at times that all that is there is to keep hoping you will change enough that the acknowledgement just *might* come your way. And if you don't know any acknowledgement will come, what is the point?
quote: Why does it matter what she thinks? Are you bothered by not measuring up for her? If her beliefs and actions aren't ones you are willing to respect, why respect her opinions of your life? Why have her tell you what's wrong constantly and still try to follow the path you feel is ahead of you? And why have it be something you have to carry around like a millstone around your neck?
Because as with God, I'm told I'm "supposed" to love her. I feel guilty that I don't love her. A grandparent, like a parent is supposed to be a reflection of the way God treats people. They are supposed to be persons worthy of love by their mere existence. But this one isn't. I know you will say well she is a flawed human whack job, and God is, well, perfect. But I just don't quite buy it.
Why do I carry it as a millstone around my neck. Because I do care about what happens to the rest of my family. If I did what was selfishly best for me, which is to tell her to bugger off and that I don't want another letter, the backlash would hit my immediate family horribly. Also the other burden that bothers me is that after the backlash, they would all take grandma's side over mine without considering the evidence, simply because I have chosen to believe differently than they do.
All of the above makes me think that God is quite capricious. If he created families to intrinsically be "good" and a stabilizing element on society, how come so many in whatever culture you pick are so dysfunctional and propagate misery rather than happiness in their children.
posted
Do you expect God to come down and pat you on your head and tell you what a good little girl you are? Maybe God does that, but I'm sure there are more important things for Him to do than to give me an ego boost now and then.
See, when it's all said and done, it's your life to lead, not God's. He's not going to judge you on what He'd have done, but what you do.
Look, this is the only life you are ever guaranteed of having. The only one. You can carry the hurts and angers of other people or you can set them down and go on about your own life. And sometimes, like in the case of your Grandmother, we have to thank them for their attention and go on with what we planned.
You seem to think it matters what she thinks, or at least the way she bothers you points that way. Just be glad that she even thinks of you enough to say what she believes. But do, live your own life, have your own success.
But, there is always this possibility that we all have to live with. Perhaps we actually are the ones in the wrong. Tim Wilson once said, "Been married seven times, hell, maybe it's you!"
But back to the religion question, what rewards do you want/expect from God? This is just the material world and we are only here for a short span of time. I'd rather take the solace that lasts an eternity over a popsicle that melts in the noonday sun.
Edit to add: Who ever said our Grandparents and parents are a reflection of God? Hallmark? They are just human beings, with foibles and failings.
I wouldn't tell her to take a hike, I'd just smile when talked to, and happily receive the letters. It's called humoring the old lady. Doesn't hurt you, keeps her happy.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson rivka, why would unfounded, unexamined belief be of greater value to God than honest obedience based on mutual respect?
I'm going to be re-reading this thread and participating more fully when I get some time, but for now I'd ask you to consider whether a particular kind of belief (not unfounded and unexamined but still not based on absolute proof) may be more valuable to us.
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A whole universe out there and you mean there aren't things more important than me?
Sorry, I'm just a lil fella on this particular globe spinnin round and round. Yes, we all do get our personal attention from God, but not every time we want it.
Speak of maturity and a child's demands. Does my occasional asthma attack warrant more than someone starving somewhere because of warlords taking away food? Does my lack of self confidence hold a candle to someone rocking and reeling in a true moral dilemma? Does my anger over a grandparent not telling me what I want to hear even compare in the least to the anger a person feels before they decide to strap on a vest of dynamite and head off to the peace rally?
It bothers me to no end how people seem to feel they, individually, are the center of the universe. That they blame God for something that isn't just Martha Stewart perfect in their life.
Grow up, get over it. Hard words, but how many times does it have to be said nicely before someone gets a clue?
The line is, paraphrased, forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive the trespasses of others.
So many times, we just want forgiveness for what we do wrong, but we want to hold on to the wrongs others have done to us. We deserve forgiveness, but the others don't. Because deep down inside, no one matters but us, do we. And deep down inside, we all think we're God or that we could do a better job than He is.
Look, I'm a fool, a simpleton. I don't understand how the whole world works. I can't throw the bones and tell you what God means for you. I can't stand and patly say "This is right, this is wrong" on anything outside the parameters of my own life.
If you can, please start doing so. Impart your wisdom, for guidance is something I always seem to need.
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quote: So let me repeat my question: why would God give tests He KNOWS we can't pass to people He KNOWS will fail them? Why would He submit someone to the kind of life that, for example, would lead them to grow into the kind of person who doesn't actually have a hope of achieving their potential?
In the first place this question presupposes an individually designed course for everyone. I see no reason why such a thing is necessarily the case, especially if the judgement is based on what you did with what you were given.
What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?
*Warning* Illustrative example ahead:
You design a contest of engineering students to select those that will go into the doctoral program, masters program, bachelors program or be refused entrance. The contest consists of each student being given a random selection of objects and being ordered to build a useful machine. Some students have everything necessary to make an electric motor or a perpetual motion machine while the best some can do with their kits is a grasshopper catapult.
The final judging is not based on the final utility of the machine but on the ingenuity and creativity used with the materials given.
In such a scenario God is not setting up anyone for failure or success; each person is responsible for their own reward after this life.
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"What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up is after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?"
Is this your opinion? Because it would seem to violate the scripture of your religion.
As I'm given to understand Mormonism, everybody who attends the science fair and tries to make something gets a ribbon for participation and a ride home on the short bus, but only the people who managed to build functioning nuclear reactors get the prizes. (And those people who're offered uranium for that purpose but turn it down are escorted out by cops at the end of the day.)
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For that matter, doesn't the idea of being flung to Earth willy-nilly pretty much line right up with my assertion earlier that the God we've been describing is one of the world's worst teachers?
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[side note] I want to thank Tres for starting this thread, and all the participants. It's making me really think, and I appreciate that. [/side note]
Jacarre, I agree, the word "test" is a bad one. My problem is that I think of most of these concepts using Hebrew or Yiddish words/phrases. It's hard enough to remember to write "Abraham" each time instead of "Avraham."
Tom, I do indeed believe that God only sends us test we have the ability to pass. HOWEVER. Not everything is a test. Some things that happen to us are consequences of our actions, not tests. Can we -- must we -- still make the best of these situations? Certainly.
Moreover, if He only sent us the tests we could pass, it would compromise what I call free will (I think it's the same as what kat keeps calling agency, but I'm not sure?). Knowing you will succeed at overcoming all obstacles greatly lessens their impact and any possible lesson(s). The greatest gain is when you somehow manage to dig deep and overcome what you were certain you could not.
But even if you don't pass, the test is not a failure. Do you not believe that you can learn at least as much from your mistakes as from your successes? Repentance (in Hebrew "teshuvah," which actually means return) and trying again can only occur if first you fail.
Many people who quit smoking only successfully do so after many failed attempts. Does that mean that the earlier attempts had no point? No -- they were part of the entire process.
We believe that true repentance (return), motivated by love of our Creator, is so great, that a "ba'al teshuvah" -- one who has repented/returned -- is greater than one who has never sinned. True repentance, done out of love for Him (rather than fear, which motivates a lesser type of repentance) turns debits into credits. Because now they have become steps toward Him, though they may have seemed to be steps away from Him at the time.
A man cannot be fully judged until the day of his death. He may yet return.
quote: What about God living up to our own expectations of benevolent, consistent behavior?
Well, here the different expectations make a big difference. Do I believe that He is the Ultimate Good, and therefore Ultimately Benevolent? Yes. Do I think that means that every action of His will be obviously benevolent to my limited perceptions? NO.
Sometimes He tests us, and the tests are difficult, and we do not see the purpose. Sometimes He judges us with mercy, and sometimes with justice. Justice sounds great, but it is very harsh. Why sometimes justice and sometimes mercy? We cannot understand that any more than a small child understands why sometimes her parents are strict and sometimes they are not. (And I refer not to human inconsistency, but to parents who are making good choices, with information and understanding that are beyond the child's comprehension.)
But it also matters whether we are dealing with this primarily as a theoretical or practical issue.
quote: When someone asks, "Why me, God?", we need to discern if she is asking a philosophical question or letting out an emotional cry. A philosophical question is a request for clarity and warrants an intellectual reply. However if her words are an expression of emotional anguish, any rational explanation is worse than irrelevant, it’s downright insensitive and cruel. An expression of pain requires empathy, not answers; silence, not words. My friend, while in the midst of experiencing profound loss, had no interest in hearing a philosophy lecture.
Oh, and the problem with comparing any two people, real or theoretical, is He doesn't. After a hundred and twenty (God willing), I will not be asked why I was not Rivka Imeinu (Rebbecca the Matriarch). I will be asked why I was not the best me I could be.
quote: Eh, sorry, just a struggling and striving mortal here. Sometimes I've just got to shrug my shoulders and look sheepish.
That's a great way of putting it, Sopwith. I plan to borrow it, if that's ok.
quote: But in the context of the original point of this thread, I can't help wondering what part God plays in this, beyond working as a personal source of psychological comfort.
Why must there be more? In this world, I mean? I'll take my rewards in the next world, where they are worth so much more. (Yeah, ok, that's the theory, anyway. I'm human -- I wish and pray for things in this world too.)
quote: Because as with God, I'm told I'm "supposed" to love her.
I disagree. Strongly. She is your grandmother, so you owe her respectful treatment and gratitude for all the good things she has done for you. But I do not believe that you owe her love. Or to allow her to poison your life. And if the rest of your family tends to ameliorate the problem, then, with great sorrow, I wonder if you need to spend less time/energy on them as well. I know someone who has had to do this. He (and his wife, who is a close friend of mine) no longer have any contact with his mother. This was not a step taken lightly or without outside counseling. Sadly, his mom will never know his children. But she is no longer poisoning their life and trying to tear apart his marriage.
quote: If he created families to intrinsically be "good" and a stabilizing element on society
Families, like most things in this world, are neither intrinsically good or bad. They have the potential to be very very good. But that also implies that they have the potential to be very harmful. We make the choices that determine which one we will have -- or really, which way we will tip the balance.
quote: Name one. I mean, in all seriousness, it's not like God's too BUSY or something.
Of course he is. Ok, first the cute answer:
quote: The story is told that a Roman matron once asked Rabbi Yosi: "How has your God been occupying his time since He finished the creation of the world?"
"He has been busy pairing couples," answered the Rabbi.
She was astonished. "Is that His trade? Even I can do that job. As many man-servants and maid-servants as I have, I can pair."
"Perhaps it is a simple matter in your eyes," replied the Rabbi. "For God, it is as intricate as the Splitting of the Sea."
She promptly placed one thousand man-servants opposite one thousand maidservants and declared, "He will marry her, she will marry him," and so on.
The next morning, two thousand servants came to her door, beaten and bruised, complaining, "I do not want her, I do not want him!"
She sent for Rabbi Yosi, and conceded: "Rabbi, your Torah is true."
quote: God sustains the universe every second -- every creature, every blade of grass. God makes your heart pump. He provides your food. He created the sun with heat and light. There is nothing that can stop God. Your parents, teachers and boss are the delivery people. Every single thing you have is sent from God.
And yet, I believe He does "give me an ego boost now and then"! Of course, if I don't pay attention, and keep myself open to those messages -- and we are so busy with life, it is hard to hear these messages -- I may miss them.
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Based on what you've picked up from Hatrack and learned on your own, can you answer your own questions with a believing, Mormon perspective? How would you answer yourself?
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quote: What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up is after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?"
Is this your opinion? Because it would seem to violate the scripture of your religion
Maybe Willy Nilly was bad wording. I think you missed the gist of my example at any rate. My point is this: what if life on earth is life on earth is life on earth. If you are born into a home with an abusive drunkard father and a prostitute mother and you end up a rather antisocial but otherwise innocuous individual then maybe you get the same reward as someone born with a silver spoon in his mouth who cured cancer and fed small countries when he wasn't busy running the orphanage.
If the reward you receive at the end of this life is based completely on relative progress (Where you ended up vs where you started) then your contention that God set some up for failure doesn't apply.
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quote: Oh, and the problem with comparing any two people, real or theoretical, is He doesn't. After a hundred and twenty (God willing), I will not be asked why I was not Rivka Imeinu (Rebbecca the Matriarch). I will be asked why I was not the best me I could be.
I think Rivka is basically reasoning along the same lines as I am.
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"God sustains the universe every second -- every creature, every blade of grass. God makes your heart pump. He provides your food. He created the sun with heat and light."
Except that we know God does not, in fact, make people's hearts pump. If He did, at His feet would lie the blame for every heart failure, every attack, and the majority of deaths in this country.
God does not make wheat grow, and it's more likely that the nuclear fusion that powers the sun is what provides its heat and light.
Leaving all that aside, are you suggesting that God gets BUSY? That He's basically omnipotent, but sometimes things get out of hand? That, perhaps, so many more hearts are beating nowadays due to population growth that He just can't get AROUND to doing those Old Testament-style miracles anymore?
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"Based on what you've picked up from Hatrack and learned on your own, can you answer your own questions with a believing, Mormon perspective?"
The answer I'd give myself, as a Mormon, is that it's necessary to trust in and obey God -- even if we, as limited human beings, cannot understand or even perceive the limits of His plans, even if His actions make no logical sense from our perspective -- as a child should obey parents who refuse to let him eat too much dessert. We should not expect our life to necessarily be better in this world for believing and obeying Him, although other people might feel that it's helped; God does not owe us consistency, and in fact inconsistency might be part of His plan for us.
And the way we should know to trust in any one specific God is that, when we open our hearts to Him, we should feel His presence. Those people who don't feel any kind of presence are, frankly, up a creek without a paddle.
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Jacare, as I understand Mormon dogma, the afterlife you receive is NOT based entirely upon relative progress.
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I would personally never do anything that didn't make sense to (excluding things that were of little importance and I was willing to trust someone on it). Also, it seems to me that in Mormon theology no one is really clear on what level of "goodness" it takes to reach the highest degree of glory; there are only a few simple check marks of things that must be done, but are not everything that must be done (i.e. be married).
quote: I think Rivka is basically reasoning along the same lines as I am.
Jacarre, indeed.
quote: Except that we know God does not, in fact, make people's hearts pump. If He did, at His feet would lie the blame for every heart failure, every attack, and the majority of deaths in this country.
Yes. And He knows the why of them, as I do not.
quote: God does not make wheat grow, and it's more likely that the nuclear fusion that powers the sun is what provides its heat and light.
He does. And of course it is -- but He is what made nuclear fusion such a process, and continues to make it so.
quote: Leaving all that aside, are you suggesting that God gets BUSY? That He's basically omnipotent, but sometimes things get out of hand? That, perhaps, so many more hearts are beating nowadays due to population growth that He just can't get AROUND to doing those Old Testament-style miracles anymore?
Not really. I was being a bit flippant, and I apologize.
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"I was being a bit flippant, and I apologize."
No need to apologize. It's just that it seems rather insulting to God to suggest that He just couldn't be bothered making somebody feel better, as if He had something BETTER to do with an infinite amount of time.
I mean, an omnipotent and omnipresent deity has as many lines on his Day Planner as He wants to have, as far as I'm concerned. When He takes time out of His busy day to watch sparrows fall or make sure that nuclear fusion continues to work, that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.
posted
Hmm, Rivka, we both agree and disagree. God, is of course, the starter of the systems that causes these things to happen, but I would hesitate to tie Him that directly to pumping our hearts and growing the plants in our fields. He was intial cause, and He probably does help with things like that sometimes (not that I would know ) but for the most part I think my heart pumps because I've kept it in shape and few it properly. Of course then we can go back to the fact that He's given me this body to have a heart pump and food to feed it and what not, but the point is that I don't really think that when someone's heart stops it's because God got tired of pumping.
quote:that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.
But he does.
I mean, don't you feel better when you do some Making?
quote: I mean, an omnipotent and omnipresent deity has as many lines on his Day Planner as He wants to have, as far as I'm concerned. When He takes time out of His busy day to watch sparrows fall or make sure that nuclear fusion continues to work, that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.
Perhaps He does let her know, but in a way more subtle than a "Thinking of You" Hallmark card. Or perhaps you get a gold star by your name that day in the big ledger book.
But Tom, I've tried to say this before and I'm going to blame it on a failing of my ability to communicate. So, let's try again, as simply as I can.
Free will is God's gift to us. We make our decisions, we suffer our consequences. Sometimes your free will bumps up against mine -- now and then successfully, now and then disastrously. Sometimes the free will of someone generations upon generations ago impacts someone today.
Free will means that God, in infinite wisdom, allows you to live your life and make your own decisions. He doesn't force you to be good (but there are volumes on the rewards and consequences that arise from our actions) just like He doesn't force you to even believe in Him or anything.
God also, as part of free will, has a hands off approach to the world and our lives. He has to or it is not a matter of our free will directing our lives and therefore our fate. Infinite wisdom.
Will God intercede on behalf of your prayers? Yes, I believe He does. Do the answers always come in the way we forsee them? Almost never. But I believe that is our limitation, not God's.
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God is the 3 dimensional shadow of a 4 dimensional goat herder. It does not care about any of us. Its a personification of a natural occurance. Like claiming that the tide follows the moon because the moon is made of cheese and the ocean is hungry.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Sopwith, the problem I have with the rest of that is that it just doesn't seem to make sense. After all, if you're a teacher, you aren't removing your students' free will by giving them tests they can pass; you aren't cheapening their education by spending more time with them.
If it's more important to God that people have free agency than all people get to Heaven, what exactly does free will do for us?
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*sigh* Okay, let's be clear. I mean "guaranteed a spot in super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven," not "suburban sprawl Heaven" or "okay but not necessarily the most hip Heaven."
But, yes, why AREN'T we all guaranteed spots in Heaven? Why can't we all have the experiences necessary to turn us into Gods?
What's the inherent merit in "free will" that makes the possibility -- certainty, since we're dealing with omniscience -- of failure more important than ascension?
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Because the super-duper, spiffy heaven isn't like hotel accomodations. It's like... the Olympics. It doesn't matter how many plane tickets to Sidney your uncle buys you; you're not in the Olympics unless you train.
quote:Why can't we all have the experiences necessary to turn us into Gods?
We do! These are some of the experiences necessary.
Do you mean why doesn't God give us only tests he knows we'll pass, no matter what?
Then there isn't choice. There's no good choices without the true possibility of bad choices, and there's no growth without the making of good choices.
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So he wants us to have the possibility of making bad choices, yet he writes four books(with somewhat limited distribution) detailing exactly the right choices?
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There are books detailing exactly the traffic laws, but that wouldn't stop me from running a red light.
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Actually, if you want to go with a purely Biblical version of the answer: at one time, humans were perfect, innocent and unknowing. Through trickery they were brought to knowledge and then the fall. And from there on, we've been left to struggle against our sins in an effort to attain Heaven. And then Christ came and the doors to Heaven were opened to all if they simply accepted him as their savior and believed.
Accept and believe. That's all it takes. The good deeds? If you're a person who understands the sacrifice Christ made and the opportunity you were fully given, then you do the good deeds not to get into Heaven, but simply because it is right to do Good.
Please understand, as a Christian, I believe that I have already gotten my reward, paid for by the blood of a man I can only hope to know and in some small way emulate. No matter the evils that the world may inflict upon me, that great gift, never tarnishes.
I could, however, throw it away at any time if I so chose. Christ freely gave of himself and his life so that I and all others would have the opportunity to live without fear of Hell.
And greater men and women than I will ever be, his own direct followers and apostles, suffered on Earth for their beliefs and all but one were slain for them. The tortures and travails they endured mattered not in the measuring of Grace in their final moments.
They preached the Gospel and were slain for it. They lived hard lives, were often imprisoned, many tortured, many despised in their time. They did the Good, knowing what harm would befall them, for their reward was in and of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Edit to Add: This is from a non-Mormon perspective. As a Protestant, I've been made no guarantees of being like a God in Heaven or anything else. My knowledge of the Mormon faith goes barely beyond the bounds of this forum board.
quote: Hmm, Rivka, we both agree and disagree. God, is of course, the starter of the systems that causes these things to happen, but I would hesitate to tie Him that directly to pumping our hearts and growing the plants in our fields. He was initial cause, and He probably does help with things like that sometimes (not that I would know) but for the most part I think my heart pumps because I've kept it in shape and few it properly. Of course then we can go back to the fact that He's given me this body to have a heart pump and food to feed it and what not, but the point is that I don't really think that when someone's heart stops it's because God got tired of pumping.
Hobbes, I know. It's one of the major differences between traditional Jewish beliefs and those of many other religions. I do believe that He put into motion the laws that govern the universe; but also that if He took His attention away for the briefest of moments (whatever that means), the world would cease to exist.
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*Steps in before dinner* My personal belief is that being stuck in the "suburban sprawl Heaven" (love it Tom ) does not mean you will never get to be in the "super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven", just that you aren't ready for it yet (either by not learning enough to appreciate it or not being morally capable of living there).
But that's just my belief, it's not exactly Church doctrine.
quote: being stuck in the "suburban sprawl Heaven" (love it Tom ) does not mean you will never get to be in the "super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven", just that you aren't ready for it yet (either by not learning enough to appreciate it or not being morally capable of living there
Does that mean that children who die in tragic accidents already appreciate life enough to die and go to the "spiffy heaven", (if you will ) ? I don't understand why God, if one exists, sees it fit to cause pain in the last moments of some lives.
Posts: 667 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I have no clue what happens to them, it depends on the child. What do you mean cause them pain in the last moments of their life? How is this pain God's doing?
[EDIT: This post reads kind of harsh, which it shouldn't. This post is not harsh, if you think it was harsh just pretend it wasn't because I can't write anyways and your lucky just to get my bad writting that makes it sound like I'm attacking or something. ]
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