posted
ok, so bad dates happen to everyone... but I haven't HAD a first date with someone not a friend in so long, that I sorta don't know the etiquette for how to tell someone there won't be a second date...
I mean, besides the "don't call her" approach. That just seems rude.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I think the thing to do would have been to let her know at the end of the date.
Right now, I think it would be just as rude to call and tell her you're not interested in her as it would be to not call at all.
Maybe an e-mail?
[disclaimer: Frisco is single...three years and counting. Taking above course of action is probably not the best idea. Offer void in the Canary Islands. No purchase necessary.]
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Depends on how bad it was. What ranking it was will tell you how much effort you should put into telling her there won't be a second one. Singing telegram, bunt cake, flowers, phone call from a friend...etc.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
After only one date, I don't think that not calling again is more rude than calling to say that there won't be any more dates... as has already been said.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I agree with Twinky. A single date is no kind of commitment, and taking someone to a fancy restaurant for an "it's not you, it's me" talk after one evening out will probably elicit either a severe creeping out or the best laugh this girl has had in years, at your expense.
I went on a date with a girl once. It was pretty clear after a short time that, although we didn't make each other toally miserable, there was not an abundance of chemistry. Not an uncommon occurance in the world of single-hood. I was willing to have as pleasant an evening as possible and let it go. But halfway through dinner, this girl informed me that she was "sort of seeing someone", and that she would be paying for her own dinner. I managed to stifle a guffaw, and hold in the obvious response of, "then why are you on a date with me?", but it did make the rest of dinner and the play that we saw later in the evening a bit awkward. I told my friends about it later, and she's become an icon of self-importance that we still chuckle about to this very day.
If she starts calling you repeatedly, then perhaps you could move on to plan B, but for now, let sleeping dogs lie.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Hmm...I disagree completely. I think, in order to avoid embarrassment, you should call this girl and ask her out on a second date. At that point, you'll realize you're committed and you might as well start shopping for rings and registering at Babies R Us...
Then, later, much later, when you are a bitter middle-aged man who feels that his chances have passed him by -- a man trapped in a loveless marriage built solely on the fear of telling someone you aren't really interested in them -- you can look back on this day and realize that you should've just stayed home that fateful night and worked on increasing your post count.
But you'll be able to console yourself with the knowledge that none of your children are (at that particular point in time) actually IN prison.
Maybe you should just cut to the chase and buy this woman a house and give her half your money.
So from a girl's point of view, I'd just ask you to think back on the date. If it seems to you that this girl honestly had just as awkward a time as you did, then don't call her. Odds are, if you're right about the date, it's best that way.
Also, these days, the responsibility for 'calling after the 1st date' isn't always on the guy anyway. She might be debating whether to call YOU or not.
quote:taking someone to a fancy restaurant for an "it's not you, it's me" talk after one evening out will probably elicit either a severe creeping out or the best laugh this girl has had in years, at your expense.
This made me giggle. And it is very, very, very true.
One date is no committment. You're still exploring. Just don't call again - that's fine. And if it was a bad date with no chemistry, it was probably mutual.
My best friend was on his first date in two years, and while it was fine, he wasn't feeling anything really, and decided that the most polite to do would be to tell her.
He walks her to her door, stands there, gives a hug, and says, "Just so you know, I won't be asking you out again."
Her face fell, she didn't say a word, and she closed the door quickly. He walked to his dorm vaguely disquieted, and proposed a hypothetical question to his friend there.
"Say someone had [done this]. What would you think?" "Antnie. You didn't!" "What was I supposed to do? Just not call her?" "Yes! Just don't call her! That's fine!"
Of course she had a great time - you're nice enough to be worried about this, and smart enough to be charming company. You don't need to do anything, though. Social mores of the moment means that calling her means you want to prolong something and see her again. If you don't want to, you don't need to call. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
So from the little data given I'm guessing it is a fluffy girl without a brain in her head, otherwise she would have been able to see that you were less than enjoying yourself. Either that or a girl who is so emotionally needy and clingy that you find yourself gasping for a breath of air. Those are the worst to get rid of and the kind that can most easily become stalkers. If any of the above assumptions are true. I don't think I'd call or have any further communication.
If she calls say politely that you don't wish to go on another date with her. Don't give her any reasons. Even though she will be steamed that you don't, it is better than her constantly calling and trying to disprove the reasons you gave.
Paul, what was said at the end of the date? There's the space that's usually filled with "I'll give you a call," or "let's do this again." If you made no polite noises like this, then you are off the hook. If you left the impression that you would call or see her again (regardless of what you actually said), then you are obligated by etiquette and human decency to contact her again, even if it's just to say "no go."
Try this: "Hi, it's Paul. Yeah, how are you? Well, I just called to let you know that some things have come up unexpectedly in my life [namely, that you're a twit, but don't say that], and I'm going to be swamped with pressing matters for awhile. Yeah, I know you weren't expecting anything, but I thought it might make sense to let you know anyway. Hey, take care, okay? Thanks for the date. Bye."
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I think Katharina's and Banna's advice is sound IF you haven't indicated that you would call her. It wouldn't be nice to let someone wait around for a call that never comes. I'm not sure what else you should do, though. Perhaps call her and say thanks for the date without proposing another and hope she gets the message. If she proposes one you could politely decline.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
People who don't call you are assumed to be busy. Perhaps they're too busy reading the warranty cards on their electronic devices or picking at their cuticles or rearranging the books on their shelves, but that doesn't matter at all. They're too busy.
Initiate contact no more than three times in a row. If the other person doesn't initiate contact after that, drop it.
There's never ever ever any reason to say, "you bore the living daylights out of me", or "you're pretty but wow I had no idea how vapid a person could be", or "there was a booger in your nose all night that I could see and the thought of you now disgusts me", or "nice but no chemistry", or ANY OF THOSE OFFENSIVE RUDE INSULTING THINGS! This assumes the other person would pester you or question you about your reasons or other indecent behavior like that. This is very insulting!
If someone calls you to ask you to do something with them, and you don't want to continue the friendship just say "oh I'm sorry I can't". If pressed to tell why (which is rude) say "it's just not a good time for me", or "that sounds fun but I'll have to call you when I get free", or "oh, sorry, I'm busy that night". To be completely gracious, vary the wording each time. However, if someone is pressing you, they are the ones who are being ungracious, so you may (for more emphasis) use the exact same wording repeatedly if you like. This borders on unpleasant, but is called for occasionally if the person seems really not to care whether you want to go or not, but wants to insist that you must go regardless.
They will understand. This is the polite and accepted method of letting someone know you don't want to go out with them again. Anything more is just slap-in-the-face insulting. Do not assume they like you more than you like them. They may have been just taking pity on you, in fact. It's much more gracious to assume that is the case, in any event.
[ October 13, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
ak I'd like to disagree with one of your phrases.
"that sounds fun but I'll have to call you when I get free"
I don't think you should ever give the other person hope of a call. Also I don't think some of your others are strongly worded enough. But, it may also depend on the culture as we've said before. Southern culture views politeness as "not being rude" and rudness as a henious act, while Northerner culture IMO tends to believe that telling the rude truth is more polite than accidentally leading the person on.
posted
"If someone calls you to ask you to do something with them, and you don't want to continue the friendship just say 'oh I'm sorry I can't.' If pressed to tell why (which is rude) say 'it's just not a good time for me,' or 'that sounds fun but I'll have to call you when I get free,' or 'oh, sorry, I'm busy that night.'"
This is remarkably Southern. In the real world, meaning where we Yankees live, I would actually interpret this as "oh, fine, call me later." At least the first time or two.
And if the girl kept it up, I'd probably cynically ask her if she had to wash her hair.
Seriously, Paul, I WOULD tell her that you aren't interested; the guy who implies he'll call and never does is practically a cliche, and it's not THAT awkward to simply call someone and say, "Hey, I liked going out with you, but you're not what I'm looking for right now. Thanks for giving me a shot, though."
I've used this method with some success. (Of course, I've also used the considerably slimier and more passive-aggressive method of just making myself unlikeable in her presence, leading her to "break up" with me.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Ok, I guess I'm ok then. I made no noises about calling her again
She's ridiculously intelligent... also ridiculously self-absorbed. I doubt she noticed me staring blankly all night.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Heh. I've had some experience with the "what to do" thing. And so far, it's been... mutual and neither person has called the other person back. I try 2 or 3 dates before letting things drop (unless there's really absolutely nothing, then why would we have set up the first date?). Two of them we just had numbers, so after taking turns inviting each other on dates, we stopped calling.
I think if one of them did call, I'd probably say something like, "I don't think it would work out" or "I don't think we connected."
The latest one, I am on e-mailing terms with. But neither of us have emailed since just after our date Thursday. I do want to e-mail him and tell him that I'd like to hang out with him as friends. He and I have a lot of similar interests. Just no chemistry.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote: She's ridiculously intelligent... also ridiculously self-absorbed. I doubt she noticed me staring blankly all night.
Was she nervous by any chance? This reminded me of some advice I was given which I dimly remember through the hasy mists of time. I was told to talk about myself if I couldn't think of anything to say... Struck me then (and now)as being self-centered. (however, confronted with a real person and worried about the long pauses in conversation I babbled about myself )
Posts: 141 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: And if the girl kept it up, I'd probably cynically ask her if she had to wash her hair.
See? I just don't see why people regardless of what part of the country they come from have to so order their lives as to make rudeness necessary. Why be snarky? Why not think, "okay, no big deal, she's too busy" and not take things cynically or personally? Same when turning someone down. Why feel you have to give a commentary on their character or qualities or personal habits? Why feel you are in a position to judge them and make a pronouncement? Why not just say for yourself that you have chosen to spend your time otherwise than in their company?
Miss Manners says the same.
[ October 14, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Anne Kate, it's just a different culture. I'm with the Yankees on this one - passive aggressive prevarication seems much more rude than being honest. I wouldn't be snarky, though, I don't think. I'm much more likely to (and have done) ask "You do seem reluctant to go out again. Should I stop calling?"
Sidestepping something with lying DOESN'T take away the hurt. It just makes you feel like you've been blindsided and any ability to respond is taken away. I hate things being hidden under the table.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
"Why not think, 'okay, no big deal, she's too busy' and not take things cynically or personally?"
Because she's NOT too busy. After the third or fourth brush-off, she's clearly REJECTING me, but lacks the guts to say so -- so she's LYING to me about being busy instead. If I thought she were busy, I'd keep asking her out.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
It's not lying. I probably wouldn't mind spending time with that person if I didn't have anything more appealing to do like cleaning out litter boxes, for instance. And nobody can rightly question what someone decides to do with their time.
What IS rude is putting yourself in the position of judging someone else and saying they're coming up short. It's just insulting to say something like "I find you dull" or "there's no chemistry here" because maybe they find you even duller, but were just being kind. In fact, it's polite to assume that's true unless they prove otherwise.
Saying, "sorry I can't", or "I'm busy" or "that's not a good time for me" without giving anything more specific is best. If you did want to see them later then you would add "DO call me again sometime" or you would maybe call them back and ask them to do something later on. A certain amount of ambiguity is better in social situations.
But don't take my word for it. Miss Manners is very cool and funny and smart and is always right. She says the same thing.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
See, that's a very Southern thing. It's a way of insulting you, but not quite doing it out loud enough for you to hear or notice, so that you get MORE embarassed when you realize that this whole time they never liked you at all.
I think it's more hurtful. To pretend that you don't have time for a person lets that person believe that you still like them in some way (whether it be friendship or otherwise). To let a person believe that is more cruel than letting them down easy and sooner.
I mean, Southerners have this ability to insult anyone, but justify it. Like, "She's ugly as sin, bless her heart, and she may never find her a man."
But if you say "Bless her heart" you're communicating your care and not REALLY insulting someone.
So acting as if you're too busy and brushing someone off communicates that you don't REALLY not like the person. But you don't. And when they realize they've been strung along all this time, they'll feel more stupid and embarassed and hurt than before.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
"It's not lying. I probably wouldn't mind spending time with that person if I didn't have anything more appealing to do like cleaning out litter boxes, for instance."
No, see, that IS lying. When you imply that you're simply too busy to see that person NOW, you imply that you'd be glad to see that person LATER. In fact, you KNOW it's lying; the mere fact that you suggest it somehow eliminates the "rudeness" of admitting that you find the other person unappealing means that you recognize it, in effect, is intended to place the burden of that realization on the other person.
quote: What IS rude is putting yourself in the position of judging someone else and saying they're coming up short. It's just insulting to say something like "I find you dull" or "there's no chemistry here" because maybe they find you even duller, but were just being kind.
Uhm. There's no chemistry here does not have a connotation that you're better than the other person. Maybe it does for you, but I think you're putting in nuances that aren't there.
I've gone on dates with men who are empirically attractive. Handsome, nice looking. But there's no spark, we don't click, we don't excite the other. No chemistry. It's mutual, more often than not. if neither of us are animated and we don't stay up till 5 am chatting about anything and everything,... then well, it ain't there.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Anne Kate, those are politely worded Nos. They aren't excuses. "I'm afraid I must decline your sweet and generous invitation." is still an unequivocal "no."
"I'm very busy, so I can't." is an equivocal no. It's the excuse-laden no Miss Manners said not to use.
The problem isn't with theory: "Be polite." It's with people's lack of ability to do just that without sliding into lying excuses.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
AKA, you should realize that Miss Manners is not, in fact, necessarily the be-all and end-all when it comes to this kind of thing.
Frankly, I think it's obvious she dropped the ball on these answers of hers; in the first example, for instance, it would save BOTH couples a lot of pain, humiliation, and trouble if one of the two couples just admitted that they couldn't stand the other.
Miss Manners, in her "brutal honesty" article, does not attempt to explain WHY she thinks honesty is bad; rather, it seems self-evident to her that being honest with people about the way you feel is the opposite of being mannerly.
I call this not only cowardice, but ultimately unhealthy, impractical, and antisocial cowardice. If you don't like somebody, you don't need to pretend to like them -- and it does no one any favors if you do.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Only two girls ever told me straight out that they weren't interested in dating me. It was amazingly refreshing. Was I interested in going out with those girls? Sure. But hearing an unequivocal "Sorry, I'm not interested" was a thousand times better than hearing yet another "I'm busy." I was able to get over it and move on instead of fruitlessly hoping that she'd be able to go out with me some other time.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
It seems we disagree. I agree perfectly with Miss Manners when she says this:
quote: Would George Washington be proud of the way Americans have come to value and practice honesty?
Never mind the vast number of citizens who openly discuss cheating on their taxes. Never mind the travelers who brag about the souvenirs they pocketed from restaurants and hotels or the purchases they plan to slip by customs. Never mind the workers whose private lives, on the job and off, are conducted with the blatant use of equipment and supplies involuntarily provided by their employers.
Those are just ordinary folks with a spirited sense of fairness. Or so they tell themselves. The righteous indignation with which they are able to defend such behavior as rebellion against unjust practices, pay scales and prices makes them sound like patriots.
These may be some of the same people Miss Manners has in mind, but she is considering their sense of honesty in situations that they believe to be of more serious moral consequence. That is, when they might be expected to say something nice that is not an honest reflection of their personal feelings at the moment.
Such as "You look terrific."
Or "I'm so glad to see you."
Or "What a cute baby."
Or "Congratulations, I'm so happy for you."
Or "This was exactly what I wanted; how did you know?"
Or "This is delicious."
Or "I had a wonderful time."
Or "I hate to leave, but I promised to get home."
Or "I'd love to, but unfortunately I have another engagement then."
Or "I'm just not ready for a serious relationship."
With their sense of integrity blazing, the Honesty Squad points out that the truth, in these cases, is quite different:
It is "You're fat."
And "Not you again."
And "Scary baby you've got there. Is it normal?"
And "How come you have all the luck when I'm the one who deserves it and never have any?"
And "Why can't you just fork over the money so I can get something I want?"
And "Yuck."
And "Borrrring!"
And "I'm outta here."
And "There must be something better to do."
And "I'm looking for someone with looks and money, which you don't have. Failing that, I at least need someone more exciting."
Not all of these statements are actually made. There is enough residual etiquette sense in most people to warn them that there is something not quite nice -- or safe -- about insulting others to their faces.
Yet they believe it is the right thing to do. It is honest, they will argue, and it is also helpful, as it provides others with truthful feedback.
So they may say something slightly less offensive but scrupulously not nice, such as, "Well, good for you" or "I'll let you know -- I don't know what I'll feel like doing then." Or they may simply leave silence where the kind phrases ought to be.
It is doubtless unfair to blame George Washington and that dubious cherry tree tale for inspiring his countrymen to such displays of honesty. But Miss Manners notices that this story's example teaches one to confess to one's own shortcomings, not to draw attention to other people's.
posted
AKA, please don't take this the wrong way, but when was your last relationship?
IMO, telling someone that you don't want to continue dating them is a whole order of magnitude more important than telling someone how they look in a dress.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Obviously, there are lots of things we say just to be polite, and usually, there's not a problem with that. But when a girl says to a guy, "Sorry, I'm busy this weekend," the guy hears, "I'd like to go out another time, but not this weekend." Dating is the beginning of a relationships, and relationships should not be founded on half-truths and misdirections.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Tom, how many ways is there to take it? You basically said that her opinion doesn't mean anything because she doesn't have recent experience. If anything, you just proved her point about politeness.
I agree about the dating thing - there are too many important repercussions to dating to not be completely honest about it. But that - jeez Tom, is this an occasion so important that you chose the passive-aggresive method of slamming her politely but obviously in public to discount her opinion?
posted
Kat, I genuinely don't KNOW when AKA's last relationship was. For all I know, she's seeing somebody now. *shrug*
I think there's an important distinction between actual RELEVANT information and purely ancillary social lies, though, which is why I asked the question.
Furthermore, there's as much a distinction between "you look ravishing" and "you look fat" as there is between "I'm going to be busy that weekend" and "you're a disgusting slimeball."
In both cases, the middle ground is probably the best way to go. If someone really DOES look fat in a given dress, you aren't doing her any favors by telling her it's flattering; by the same token, if you really don't want to see someone again, you aren't helping by implying that you'd like to give it a shot another weekend.
Consider another lie up there: "Thank you! This is exactly what I wanted!" While "polite," and certainly a common white lie, it's also going to guarantee that the people giving you the gift are going to waste MORE money on objects of this type for the rest of time. (I've seen this happen to collectors; their family knows they collect comic books, rubber ducks, Pooh merchandise, or something similar, and therefore routinely buys something of this sort, generally a worthless or pedestrian item, until the poor collector can't remember a time when he or she DIDN'T get a cheap plastic Pooh figurine from his or her grandfather -- who still has no idea that the figurines are valueless to the recipient.)
posted
Oh, I agree with that. The problem with Miss Manners' examples is those are the extremes, and extremes are rarely appropriate in social situations.
Okay, maybe you didn't know. Since it may bring up an answer that would the askee would not prefer to say in public, though, it wasn't a very good question. Kind of like the time (forgive me, Jon Boy) JB asked someone on the board if her missionary was still writing her. The answer was positive, but if it wasn't, the askee would have had to make a choice between (1) ignoring him, (2) lying, (3) answering a painful question in front of a crowd. That's not necessary.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Perhaps the problem for some of us is that 'societal niceties' can easily slide into 'saying nice things with an acerbic edge' or 'pretending to be nice while knowing the other person knows you hate them.'
False pleasantness has its time and place. I just don't think that it's the only way to end a mediocre dating spree.
If the reason you're not compatible is reasonable, then I feel it's best to be honest with the other person. "We don't have any common interests." "We don't have the same sense of humor." "We had no chemistry."
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