posted
Guess what I have planned tonight, my single friends? Roaming around Salt Lake City, going where I want to, no suggestions to go shopping for lingerie (though, that won't stop me from going there ) eating like a pig, and going to the movie of my choice. Weee... single life is great...
Man, I wish I had someone to kiss at that movie...
posted
Nate, if you'll move to Bozeman I'll hook you up. I have so many girlfriends to pawn off and so few strapping young lads to pawn them off on.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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It took me years to get over this. It's a horrible custom - if I had refused to go out on dates with guys that I didn't want to go with, I think my dating experiences as a whole would have been a lot more positive. No wonder dating was torture! I was forcing myself to be charming to guys I had no interest in! Dating didn't seem like looking for a partner at all - more like a necessary evil. There's no goodness in too polite to say no to a date. Anyone can suffer through one dance, but dating's too important to do with your fingers crossed.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
The girls at BYU cann't say no to a date? Is this a rule or something? No one ever told me that in High School when I was looking at colleges. What if you are Catholic? Can they say no then?
Can they say no if you are a 40 year old married Catholic?
posted
Every one of them. You see, the Catholic part (not to mention the 40 years old and married part) don't make it pass the vetting process. It isn't that's impolite to say no to anyone; it's that it's impolite to say no to active, young RMs in college.
I'm serious about this being a problem, though. Heck, my step-mother married someone because, despite getting serious, serious doubts during the engagement, she was too polite and too much of the Good Girl to call it off. So, she acted like a perfect lady and was just miserable for the next 25 years. That's a major problem.
posted
So why is it that young Mormon ladies are illequipped to make good dating decisions?
Do they lack sense of self? Or do they lack sense of other?
I guess what I mean is: what conditions are in place within female Mormon culture that give rise to their lack of <independence?>? Or whatever you want to call the stigma that amounts to Mormon ladies feeling compelled to say yes to a mormon suiter based solely on his Mormonhood. Mormonness?
-just curious--not intending at all to derail this thread into a discussion about Mormonism, and certainly not intending to attack Mormonism in any way-
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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I definitely wouldn't judge the entire population by me. In fact, I wouldn't the population of anything by any Hatracker - I don't think any of us are typically representative of the culture from which we spring. So... I can't answer for all Mormom young women because I don't know their reasons..
For me? *thinks* I think it might have been partly from my older brother. He's one year older, and had a hard time dating. When I first started dating, it was among his friends, so I figured saying no would have a lot of repercussions. 1. guy humiliated in front of brother, 2. brother humiliated because his friends aren't good enough for me (they weren't, though), and 3. I'd still have to see them and it would be awkward. Besides, his best friend was the older brother of my best friend, and I asked him to a girls choice dance because I had to go and didn't have anyone I wanted to ask. He went, but it was horrible. The only reason it wasn't a terrible date is because I was so little invested, and it was a group date so I just talked to my friends. This guy was surly, rude, and ran off with another girl halfway through. (They ended up dating for two years, and I sadly took some delight in the merry hell she put him through.)
Compared to all that, it seemed easier just to go and be polite. Besides, I hadn't dated yet, and I'm pretty open to just about all new experiences as long as they aren't illegal or immoral.
In college, it came from roommates. I remember the worst date of my entire life was a second date that I'd had no desire to go on, but roommates talked me into it. It was a disaster, and it didn't have to be. I just didn't want to be there, and I was 19 and still kind of bratty. I did, finally, request to be taken home at about 10:00 pm, when he offered to let me come and listen to him practice the cello.
I am starting to figure out why I had so much more fun dating non-members - those were the ones I wanted to go on, while the dates with the members were the ones I generally had to go on. *lights break*
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Do they lack sense of self? Or do they lack sense of other?
Mormon girls? In my experience, a lot of them do lack sense of self. (Including myself) Lots more stories about this, but I must go. I do think in some respects it is part of the culture.
But, I'll leave someone else to explain this, for I have to fly....
Would it be taboo at a Mormon university for a girl to ask out a guy, rather than the other way around? And if not, why don't they?
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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I guess I live in a pocket of extraordinarily independent Mormon girls. I don't see this much around me.
Except in myself, of course. I dated a guy for almost a month who I really wasn't interested in but I felt that if I'd try hard enough I could start to like him.
Note to everyone: never ever do this.
I think it only takes one bad experience, though, to teach you that.
That said, I still think everyone deserves one date. Even if you know you're not interested, there's no harm in going on one date. Then you save the guy, however ill-suited he may be, the humiliation of total rejection, and you can bow out gracefully if he asks again.
But then again, I am not the love doctor, so take everything I say with a grain of salt and call someone else in the morning. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I think it is rather taboo for a Mormon girl to ask out a guy. They won't turn you down, and they'll say they like it, but secretly they don't and they freak out if they think a girl is pursuing them.
Solution to all of the aforementioned problems: only date jatraqueros. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Would it be taboo at a Mormon university for a girl to ask out a guy, rather than the other way around? And if not, why don't they
*datefully clueless, although much less clueless than before*
Okay, the thing is, I don't usually like the completely standard Mormon guys. I like quirky, I love personality, and I have fatal attraction to mathemeticians.
Added: There is an explanation for this. I have a problem with being told what to do, and while I have no problem with patriarchal order as practiced by the Lord (and the GAs), I have a serious problem with the "I'm always the final word, so what you say doesn't count." version as practiced by way, way too many of the Mormon guys I encountered, including my illustrious and weenie older brother. The brilliant, quirky guys are usually a little bit outside the normal run of things anyway, so they don't see a need to constantly reinforce their shaky, macho perch. I love that.
I do know a whole lot more than I used to. I figure everyone has something to struggle with in this life, and the Lord thought it would be good to give me this one. That's fine, but... my learning process hasn't always been fun for the guys I've dated. That's my only major, major regret.
posted
"Then you save the guy, however ill-suited he may be, the humiliation of total rejection, and you can bow out gracefully if he asks again."
Here's a question for the fellas in response:
Which do you think is more humiliating, being turned down before the first date or being turned down when asking for the second?
Posts: 1307 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
aka, i don't know that there is any way i can address your post that won't result in turmoil. i'll try anyway.
my intent was not to wound you, but to warn you as your list (the first 3 in particular) sounded to me like a rather backwards self analysis. the sort of redefinining one's supposed limitations as strengths that will result in not ever trying.
i like your second list much better.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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So, I have a date Wednesday. And another one on whatever day I have off next week. Different girls. ::gasp:: 2 girls!? But... but... that must mean that... I'M SINGLE.
MUAHAHAHAHA.
Thats right. You people with commitment may kiss and that sort of thing, but I get to use the same jokes twice, the same lines twice, the same conversations twice, without having to look redundant.
::trying desperately to steal thread back to the single people::
posted
I'm still trying to figure out Mag's post from page 2 -- says his wife left him. But I thought he was Mormon, and it is like IMPOSSIBLE for them to split up...
I'm crazy about a certain Mormon guy who lives way over in Utah (no, I'm not Mormon) but he's been divorced, and refuses to date ever again, (at least officially-- although we visit and e-mail, etc.) So my love goes unrequitted.... (is that the right word?)
quote:Actually, I think the proper category for you would NOT be 'singles'. It would be 'player'.
Player is a subcategory of the larger category of singles, as is hermit, monk, nun, and playboy, among others. (Technically, nuns might not be on the singles list, because they are s'posed to be married to Christ).
quote:Playa. Get it right.
Isn't that just "beach" in Spanish?
quote:...unrequitted.... (is that the right word?)
It's actually "unrequited". Right word, wrong spelling.
I would think it unlikely that Mormon couples never or hardly ever break up, though they may have lower divorce rates than the national average due to a good support system. I have known at least two Mormon couples who have gotten divorced, and I don't know all that many Mormon couples. Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Ah, yes, Celia, I can totally see how it could be read that way if you think of it as someone explaining why they actually enjoyed being single and would not want to change. If you read it for what it is, i.e. a rather unsuccessful attempt to make the best of a sucky situation, and to remember that there must be some good things about it too, and not to whine too much, (that's what this whole thread is about, isn't it?) <laughs> then I hope you will aquit me of selfishness.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I will go into the duality of singleness---
It is more Though sometimes Then meeting someone And after a break-up The weeks after It has its good points and bad.
I'm on of those women who sees nothing wrong with being single...I don't need someone in my life. But...sometimes...it's nice to have someone around...y'know....
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Being single is cool. What sucks is when you have a crush on your best friend for five years, and he and your other best friend have liked each other for the past four years. They're always talking about how much they like each other, etc., etc., and it's like "yeah, just twist the knife in my gut why don't ya?" And then as soon as you think you're over your crush they break up. Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think being single is a lot like being in school. It can be fun. It can be very satisfying at times. We all need to go through it to find out who we are and what we want. At the same time, I think it's intended to be frustrating and somewhat unsatisfying so that we want to get together with someone and stay together so we don't have to be single anymore. It's not just about sex, though that's obviously part of it. I think the key to being single is to enjoy it, take advantage of it, have fun while you're free, but don't get too self-absorbed or attached to being single. Someday, if you want to be other than single, you'll have to learn to care about another person and give up some things you might have thought were important.
Anyway, there's my didactic rant. I loved being single. I made some wonderful friends and learned some exciting things. There's nothing quite like the first-date rush and nervousness and eventual relaxation. It's fun to be able to have crushes on three different people at once.
But, I must admit, it's much, much more fun to be married. Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I think there's more to being single than first-date rushes and multiple crushes.
A great marriage is better than a great single life.
An average marriage is worse than an average single life.
For a lot of people, marriage is what they've dreamed of and see as being a big step in their lives. Of course they're going to be happier married, knowing that it's one more thing to check off the "things I do before I die" list.
Others don't see marriage the same way, and don't see single life as merely a time for reckless fun, making friends and living in a dirty apartment.
The happiest couples I know are the ones for whom marriage caught them completely and utterly by surprise.
So don't sweat it, Nate. Every day you're single is a day more you can learn about yourself. And the more you learn about yourself, the more you can bring to a relationship. And I think two people utterly comfortable with themselves makes for a very healthy, stable relationship.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
That's a toughie. I think logically the worse statment is made if you do it after one time (after they got to know you, they don't want to see you again...) But it may be more damaging emotionaly for the first attempt for two reasons. 1) After sizing you up they decide you're not even worth getting to know 2) The first ask out is normally more public.
Not that this is really what the girl is saying in any of these cases, but that's how I think it would feel...
I guess because I am still young; the idea of meeting someone now and then deciding to commit myself to that person for the rest of our lives scares me.
I only had one long term relationship. It was my first one. I was 17 and he was 18. My stepfather had forbid our relationship, so for the most part it was clandestine---something forbidden, and therefore more desirible to my teenage mind (I didn't think this conciously, but later I realized that this was the bulk of it).
The guy was always bringing up getting married someday and that he would love me "forever." To most girls that age, in my area, that was "sooooo romantic." Everytime he said it I told him to never say f-word and the m-word. I told him maybe if we were still together when we were 26 or 27.
A year and a half later, I wisened up and decided that I deserved better than a high school-dropout, Mcdonald's manager who took me for granted and spent all his money on crap (ie--action figures, video games, and drugs).
But that is a story for another day.
Ever since that---none of my relationships has lasted 2 months. I've been through about 5 since the first.
At first, I thought it was them. Then I thought it was me. Now I just think I'm cursed, because they all end with the same pattern---everything good, then everything gone. And it always happens a day or two before the 2-month mark.
Granted, at this point, I have come to accept this, because fighting it will do no good. The good thing is, I guess, I have remained friendly with all exes (save 2), and am good friends with two of them. It's really not so bad...
When I ran into my sister the day after my last breakup, she said to her boyfriend "oh, it's okay. she really isn't the commitment type..."
I'm starting to think she is right.
She just got engaged. She and her fiance are 20. They will be 23 when they tie the knot. I am 22. The engagement came as a bit of a shock--I mean, I thought it would happen eventually, but not so soon. The engagement is long enough for them to decide if this is the right thing to do.
After I found out, I did a lot of thinking. One of the things I tried to imagine was being her, or being in her situation. Having the ring on my finger and refering to someone as a "fiance" and planning a wedding and things like that. I got chills. I wanted to run like hell. I'm absolutely sure she doesn't feel that way.
So I guess I am better at being single. I miss some of the things about a relationship: the companionship, the love, trying to touch a person's soul, togetherness, the support. But, I realized a few years ago, I don't need someone to make me happy. How can I make someone else happy, if I can't be happy myself. Sometimes, I need to work on that...
Regarding the lack of sense of self in young women, I remember quite vividly the first time I realized that frank disagreement with others was even an possible option. It was liberating. I can't tell you how shaky I felt the first time I took my own feelings into account as an adult, but I really was terrified that the sky would cave in.
Fortunately, it didn't. And once you realize that, the world is different. Then came the realization that if everyone's sadness/happiness must be taken into account, so must mine. Whoa.
Some of us were raised believing that saying "no" just because you didn't want to do it wasn't even on the list of our options. OSC's portrayal of the empathic (and ultraservile) Gauntish made me ache with the memory. For me, the greatest health came from choosing to surround myself with people who wanted me to have my own center, who were creeped out by my subsuming of my will for them. Just like Patience.
Hard going, though. Paradigm shifting from the bottom up. This change -- the growing healthiness and sense of self, the strength in me -- was what underscored the breakup of my first marriage. He was a "nice guy," but his weak spots meshed with mine so completely that when I became stronger, he became angry.
I'm with ya all the way man. Though I fit more into the hermit subcategory of single life than playa.
On another note...
quote:Actually, as a math major, you probably consider a different set of numbers (average lifespan). Married men tend to live longer. Married women tend to live shorter or longer depending on whether their marriages are happy.
A friend of mine had a theory about this. Keep in mind we're all engineers here. His theory stated that each person is alotted a defined amount of happiness in life, which is to be doled out over the course of one's lifetime. Therefore, the reason that married men live longer is that they have less fun per unit of time. See, being single is better.
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) eating like a pig, and going to the movie of my choice. Weee... single life is great...![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I dated a guy for almost a month who I really wasn't interested in but I felt that if I'd try hard enough I could start to like him.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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