That's why I vented to Hatrack instead of them. It would be just as rude for me to act all appalled and make them uncomfortable. On the other hand, I'm fine with telling Steve that the point is to get people who want to go to the museum together, and if he doesn't want to go to the museum, he doesn't need to. Honestly, I don't want him to come, because he'll be bored if he doesn't like it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lady Dove is my kind of hostess! I tend to have the same attitude she does when it comes to parties. If people can come, great! If not, we will still have a lovely time. I want my home to be a haven for my friends, and the time we spend together a joyful change of pace from the regular routine.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, LadyDove is a champion hostess. I was so comfortable in her house last year that when I was talking to my friend to get directions, I slipped and said I was home. It was funny, but it's a testament to how at-home I felt.
posted
To save ourselves problems like this, my best friends and I decided to formalize our social heirarchy. You see, we were all the geeks and nerds that nobody would hang out with in seventh grade, so we all hung out together and became friends. We also started to make other, non-geek friends in high school, so our group actually became a clique in and of its own. So, we started getting all these "friends of a friend" showing up at the house (One of the geeks was rich and had a huge house and an obliging mother who bought us pop and fed us, so we were there 9/10ths of the time). Often, these hangers-on weren't that cool to hang out with, but we certainly weren't going to kick them out already.
However, by sopohmore year, our extended group was something like fourteen people, and since the plan was always to hang out at Collin's, people would just show up at his house. After a while, this got REALLY old, and it seemed like we couldn't ever just get the core group together without additions.
Our solution? Create an "Inner Circle" of five members (complete with initiation ritual and bylaws) who can hold exclusive events. If you want only the cool people to be there, just say it's Inner Circle Only, or a Meeting of the Inner Circle. This also prevents eavesdropping/self-invitation:
ME: "So, catch you at Collin's at 10:00?" INNER CIRCLE MEMBER: "Yeah, catch you later." NON-MEMBER: (runs up) "Wow, what's going on at Collin's?" ME: "Sorry, dude, Inner Circle only." NON-MEMBER: "Oh, bummer."
Of course, this DID lead to hurt feelings and the like, but we were all anime freaks and video gamers with a bizarre taste for ritual, so it worked out okay. By senior year we were barely on speaking terms anyway.
posted
You know how I handle this? I use Evite. I use it for everything from silly sledding trips to dinner parties to pizza and beer to whatever. Mark and I joke about using it for the wedding, but I'm hankerin' for that embossed vellum, baby.
When you open the invitation, you see a list of who all is coming, whether or not they're coming, and who they're bringing. Bam. Takes the whole "being a guest" thing out of the dark and lets them know what's going on. I love it.
Now, if I could just get them to stop sending invites that get flagged as spam... we're going to have to write our own system, I guess. But I love love love the concept. I love being aware of what's going on, without even needing to ask.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm floored by two things in this thread. . . . The second is the amount of passion it is bringing up.
I think it probably has something to do with the fact that people don't like to be called classless, tacky, and rude. Of course, I can't really speak for anyone but myself.
quote:No, saxon, but that's not the only scenario possible. Mrs. M. shared some lovely alternatives earlier.
OK, perusing Mrs. M's post, it seems like it's not so much a question of whether or not you are asking the host, just how you phrase your question. I can completely understand that. But, of course, she qualified it by saying that she'd only do it with a close friend. So how do you approach the situation with a stranger? Or do you just go and potentially have to deal with it, or just decline all invitations from people who are not close friends?
There are several things I'm really struggling with here. One is the idea that I should care more about a stranger's feelings than a friend's, and that I should more implicitly trust a stranger than a friend. I just can't wrap my head around that. The very definition of a friend, what separates a friend from a stranger, is that I care about a friend's feelings and I trust him. There are other factors, too, of course, but those are key.
Another is the idea that a gathering or event is more about the host than the guests. Now, I can definitely see this in some circumstances. Weddings, definitely. Bar and bat mitzvahs. Debutante balls, I imagine. Maybe even birthday parties. But your average, run-of-the-mill get-together, I just don't see it. The guests' feelings and enjoyment should be at least as important as the host's, maybe even more. At least, that's the way I'm used to thinking.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Now, if I could just get them to stop sending invites that get flagged as spam...
I'm reasonably certain that Evite sells email addresses to spammers. I went several months at my new email address without a single spam email showing up, but a day after my wife sent me an evite there I started getting it.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Saxon, I feel like I keep inadvertently offending you. That's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.
I think we can agree that different regions have different social expectations. My internal expectations come from a combination of my Southern mother and Jane Austen novels. The Jane Austen bits I've tried to exorcise (no matter how fitting they sometimes feel), and the rest is protesting in this thread.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: Saxon, I feel like I keep inadvertently offending you. That's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.
kat, I have to ask... are you intentionally not mentioning the several other people, myself included, who have repeatedly said they felt offended by this thread? I don't really mind, I'm just surprised that you worded it this way.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, this is just the second I've done it, and I thought I needed to address that.
No, I don't mean to offend anyone! I seriously, seriously did not think I would find so much disagreement. If I'd had any idea, I wouldn't have brought it up. And I've never been treated with anything except kindness, hospitality, and openness by Hatrackers at anything I've been to or been invited to. I can't wait for WenchCon - it's going to wonderful.
I seriously think it's a culture clash. Now I know y'all don't get offended by people asking, and you know that I do. It's all okay.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, I just thought it was a little odd, what with me repeatedly saying I felt slighted and offended, that I was being called "classless", "tacky", and "rude" and felt insulted by it, and not hearing a word of apology, but saxon is singled out for a big apology.
Is offending me, Aja, the "last thing in the world you'd ever want to do"? Or do you like saxon better than me? Cause, I mean, it's totally fine to like anyone more than you like me, and I would definitely understand why... but wouldn't that kind of go against what you've been arguing here? And to so pointedly apologize to him and specifically not me, wouldn't that be a little tacky and rude? Or am I just reading too much into this?
If you and I were both invited to a small gathering by a mutual friend, and you knew that I had the intention of pestering you and provoking you into arguments all night, would you suck it up and go? Or would you politely decline, knowing that I would make the evening an unpleasant one for you, despite our shared friendship with the host?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Acually Tom, on this one I disagree. Ayelar made a lot of statments on this thread and Kat didn't respond to any of them. Kat didn't respond to any of Ayelar's ideas until she made it a big deal.
Now admittedly it is Kat's peroggative to what she responds to and what she doesn't. Kat tends to respond to things that touch a chord with her personally, and not discuss the rest. I don't think Kat was deliberately ignoring Ayelar, but I can see how Ayelar felt snubbed and left out of the conversation, because she was left out.
Exactly like a face to face social setting in a way.
posted
I'm definitely not trying to make a big deal out of this. I don't want to attack kat, honestly!
However, I feel like I'm experiencing an inconsistency with kat's stated views on social relationships, tactfulness, and civility, and I'm curious enough about it to want to know if she's coming across that way.
I really don't want this to be taken personally; it's not for me, despite the insults. However, I am willing to risk the appearance of being provocative to see what the answers to my questions are.
I found kat's responses and curious lack of responses to me somewhat rude. I certainly don't think she was being rude intentionally, or that she would in any way want to offend me. Nevertheless, she did, and since this is a discussion about what is polite and what is rude, I thought it was relevant. I also have a general suspicion that kat doesn't particularly like me (which would be perfectly reasonable and natural), but, if so, makes for an interesting and relevant example when we're discussing unconditionally liking people.
Is it possible to question someone so personally in an academic, rather than attacking, manner? Is there some other way I could be phrasing this?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ayelar, I don't dislike you. I'm sorry that you have felt that way. I'm glad you're here, and I'm sorry you felt slighted in the thread. I didn't respond for exactly the reasons AJ suspected - I just answered the things that hit a chord. I like this being a "social customs" discussion thread, so if you'd like to work out a disagreement, I'd be happy to do that in e-mail.
posted
This is laughable. Here we have Saxon75 and Katharina, two of easiest to get along with hatrackers I know- arguing almostvisciously, here we have Ayelar, sounding offended while trying not to sound offended, Tom D. trying to play peacemaker in an argument he basically started with his blunt statements. And AJ's statement "Kat tends to respond to things that touch a chord with her personally, and not discuss the rest." reminds me of somebody... oh, I know now: everybody.
Stay in character, folks, Mr. Rogers likes you just the way you are As far as the topic goes, let's face it, it's a hard call. Generally speaking, to most people, it's really not a very important issue anyway. So were it possible, kat, I'd say you should try not to be offended, because it's indeed likely that no offense is intended. If it's not though, I think one of the more basic things to think about is how you deliver the invite; I mean, for example, if you mention a specific group of people or whatever that the invitee is not particularly involved with, then it may be not exactly polite, but personally I don't really blame them for asking who all will be there. Also, as has been mentioned but is contrary to what Kat was originally talking about, between good friends who are comfortable with their relations it doesn't really much matter. For some reason, I am completely unable to accept the idea that you folks do not have the imagination to see that such behavior could in fact, in some situations, be horribly rude. For if delivered and taken the wrong way, under the wrong circumstances, this behavior could do exactly what Kat feels that it does, to make a person feel as if they are only valuable as a tool. I'm certain no one who's posted on this thread would do this purposefully (and prob'ly not on accident either) but it is something everyone should be careful about. I definitely think you should consider the paerticular situation before asking "who else is coming"? That's the whole trouble here, there is no argument, because every situation is different.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If y'all want to know the update, every person who asked who else was coming before answering is not, and every person who said "Sure, that'd be awesome," is.
At this point, I'm thinking I should take it personally, but not worry about it. I'm not trying to become a hostess (I don't have the temperament); I'm trying to get people together who have common interests and, frankly, who like me. On the other hand, if they don't, they either (1) don't know me well enough and aren't "take a chance" kind of people, or (2) obviously have something wrong with them. Either way, I'm okay.
--katharina
[ December 18, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Did it just work out that way, kat, or did you retract the invitation to the people who asked? If it's the latter, how did you handle it? I wouldn't have any idea how to do something like that.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
I love your new screen name. I didn't realize you were Javert Hugo. I think Les Miserables is an amazing book and Javert is a really interesting character.
Sorry those people "dissed" you. I hope you just got caught up in the moment and enjoyed the people who did come, and didn't give the others a second thought.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
kat, of course you are right. It's really tacky and rude to ask your hostess who else will be there, as though you were afraid of being bored. I think what did happen is the best thing that could happen: that those who asked didn't come.
I think when asked that question I would just be vague and say, "oh some people I expect you will like." If they persist I would just blandly reword my answer however many times it took, like this.
"But who, exactly?" "Several friends." "What friends?" "Some people I've asked." "Who did you ask?" "Some other friends."
etc., keeping my voice completely bland.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anne Kate, that's passive aggressive though. I'm not going to duck around it.
What happened. Well, the first girl (the one that prompted the thread - who couldn't remember meeting me) had Christmas stuff to do. That's totally fine. I believe her. Heck, she doesn't even remember me. That's fine. I'm not offended. I did give her Brandon's e-mail address, and am officially neutral about everything. She did mention she was going the next weekend, and I'm going down the next weekend as well, and I sort of left it open for her to invite me to meet them that day, but I haven't heard anything, so it's fine.
I think it's part of the Daisy Buchanan phenomenon - when you're established and happy, it's just easier not to worry about it. I'm even sympathetic to it. Heck, I've DONE that. One of my most shameful memories is of being seven years old and telling a girl I didn't want to be friends, because I already had a friend and didn't need another. That memory is probably why I'm so sensitive about it now - I was a truly barbaric child, and everything that came later was definitely some sort of divine justice. On the other hand, I was SEVEN.
The second one - the guy whose idiotic e-mail is excerpted above - I wrote back and didn't say who was coming. I did say that if he didn't enjoy museums, he probably wouldn't have fun. I don't feel bad about that - he was/is very obvious that he has no desire for my personal company but doesn't mind coming to things that I have because he likes some of the people that I like. The only positive thing he's ever said to me was wondering how I got so many guys to come to a party once and congratulating me on it. Since it wasn't a performance, that annoyed me all the way around. Anyway, coming on top of the "people with sick moms are such drags" conversation, I'm close to giving up. The only reason I haven't is because some sort of devil inside me thinks continuing to try will be funnier.
I need an adventure. *thinks*
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think it's passive aggressive. I think it's politely declining to do something someone shouldn't have asked you to do. It's being kind and polite.
Passive aggressive maybe would be if you said it with a stubborn or annoyed tone to your voice, or if you seem miffed. If you are bland and mild and don't even seem to notice how rude the person is being, that's not aggression, it's a kindness.
Most everyone would drop the question, after that, I believe, and maybe even get the sense (without being offended) that it wasn't quite the right question to have asked.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:If you are bland and mild and don't even seem to notice how rude the person is being, that's not aggression, it's a kindness.
That sounds like a perfect example of being passive aggressive.
If a host did that to me (if I were rude enough to keep asking, of course), there's no way I'd be going to the party. What a lousy host. Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
She didn't say she's actually done it herself, she was merely suggesting a possible course of action. I'm not criticizing her, I'm criticizing the idea. And, I guess, anyone who implements it.
I'm beginning to think Hatrack is getting way too touchy to be fun.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just read this thread, and I have to say I think this is a culture thing.
Having been raised by a family that considered sending girls to "finishing school" a normal thing, and having been taught from the time I could walk the differences between bridal teas, bridal showers, and bridal coffees (not to mention what you can and cannot wear to each) - I could not imagine ever asking a hostess who else was coming.
I've never asked that question myself, either, I would never even think of asking it. *thinks* I guess it wouldn't matter to me. Even if I didn't like some of the people there, I would have accepted the invitation because of who asked me - the hostess. I owe it to her to do my part to make the gathering a success by being a gracious guest.
Wouldn't it be great if we could wear some kind of sign on our foreheads, so other people knew what things offended us? Most of you would not be offended at all but Kat and I look at it differently. Then again, I'm certain there are things I wouldn't think twice about that most of you would find offensive.
You yankees are all so touchy, anyway.
Disclaimer: the above statement in the final paragraph of this post was meant in jest and does not constitute an intentionally offensive remark. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Saxon, I feel like I keep inadvertently offending you. That's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
