posted
kat, I'd like to apologize for having been so sharp in this thread. I've just read back over it, and I've been kinda antagonistic, and I'm sorry.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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You know, I have aunts in Houston that I don't get to see often enough. It would be very cool and very easy for me to come for a weekend - maybe sometime in February?
Toretha:
It's totally okay. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I know being around strangers can be hard.
posted
Interesting, kat -- I also have the "low-level burn" phenomenon. Although I would never have thought to put it in those terms. But I find it much less uncomfortable to be around people who I know well than people I don't.
I think maybe because they're more likely to cut me slack and not get upset if (hah! when) I say something I should have bitten back or somesuch.
One of the things I like about fora and e-mail (it's much less true of chat) is the ability to edit what I say before I post/send. (And on Hatrack, I have the added insurance of being able to delete stuff I realize a minute later I absolutely should not have posted.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I am a shy person. I've been that way since I was a child. My mother put me into performing arts in the hopes that I would learn to overcome my shyness. I did and I still do. It is not something that has ever left me, but I overcome it with increasing ease as I get older. It used to take me anywhere from an 30 minutes to an hour to work up enough nerve to be social. Now it takes me about 5 minutes. I know exactly how hard it can be to talk to people in a room full of strangers. I know how crummy it feels when no one talks to you and you can't work up the courage to talk to anyone yourself. Believe me, I've been there.
But I've always viewed it as my problem. Certainly the host of whatever gathering I'd been invited to had an obligation to try to make me as comfortable as possible, but beyond introductions (as in, "This is Kira, my friend from Georgia, she hates the Amercian version of What Not to Wear, too..."), the rest is up to me. If I mumble hello and stare at my feet, I understand if this makes the other person uncomfortable. Some people are skilled at bringing people out of their shells and some are not.
My best friend of more than 14 years is also shy. I noticed a Save the Whales sticker on her Bio book and she had hair down to her knees, so I thought she was a hippy and I thought that was cool. I decided to strike up a conversation when the bell rang. It was not a success.
Kira: Are you into save the whales? Cara [in a flat, you're-an-idiot tone]: No. It came with the book. [points to giant yellow USED sticker] Kira: Oh. Sorry. [beats a hasty retreat]
She thought I thought she was a witch and I thought she thought I was a moron. Since she was my maid of honor 11 years later, we both obviously overcame our shyness with each other. And it was definitely worth it.
What helps me to quickly overcome my shyness or to forget it immediately (like for faculty gatherings where my charm has to be an asset to Andrew's career) is to think of the event as a performance. That helps give me the mental distance to get past the initial nervousness.
As to asking who will be there, I would only do it with a very close friend. And I don't phrase it, "Who else is coming?" I usually say, "Will anyone else I know be there?" or "Is so-and-so coming?" or "What kind of crowd is it going to be?" To be perfectly honest, I usually ask what everyone will be wearing. I think the girl's phrasing was inappropriate and I think there's a very good chance that she was fishing for info on Kate's guy friend.
That was pretty clear to me and I was thinking that it's a Southern thing. Where I'm from, it's taboo to come right out and ask if the person you're interested in will be at a gathering. You hint (with degrees of subtlety, depending on how well you know the person you're hinting to), but that is it. If you are talking to another Southern person, she will catch on and either give you the info or very deliberately not. You can also gauge, based on her reaction, how she feels about your interest in this dude. It may seem like Machiavellian double-speak to non-Southerners, but it's as clear as day to us.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
This is an interesting thread. When reading it, I found that I agreed with at least something in almost everybody's posts. I do believe that the question "who else is going to be there?" in some situations can be rude and/or hurtful, and I also agree that, depending on several factors, it can be perfectly alright to ask. There are at least three variables to consider: 1) the degree of acquaintance between the inviter and invitee, 2) at which stage of the acceptance procedure the question is asked and 3) the (perceived) reason for the inquiry.
If you are secure in your friendship with someone whom you ask (or is asked by) to attend a social function, to me it's pretty much OK to ask about whatever you or she want to know. It is already established to you like to spend time in the company with each other and the presumption is therefore that the question is simply curiosity (or any other benign reason). Even if you or she decides not to attend based on the information provided, it does not (necessarily) affect your relationship because there were factors unrelated to your friendship that were decisive.
Perfect strangers are a category for themself. First, if they ARE rude it's pretty easy to dismiss it because you have not much emotion invested in them liking you and wanting to attend your function (unless you are really insecure). Secondly, the question is usually pretty understandable: they don't know you and wanting to know something of what to expect is natural. They can be forgiven asking the question before giving an affirmative answer to the invitation. There are of course more polite ways to put it, such as "what kind of function is it?" and "will I know anyone else?" Also, the accommodating host provides these kinds of details on his own before expecting the guest to accept.
There are however a third category where the issue is more delicate. During the last year I've met a few new people whom I admire and would like to be my friends. I think they are my friends, but I'm not yet secure in my knowledge of what they think of me. If I called them and asked whether they wanted to come to a party at my place (which I wouldn't do, but that's another issue) I would be hurt if they responded by asking who else would be there. Whether right or wrong, some part of me would suspect that the reason for asking was that they would not be entirely comfortable or enjoy themselves in my company and needed the presence of someone else as a buffer. I want to be friends with them so much that I would attend their parties regardless of the additional company, and I would want to think it's mutual. Now, enthusiastic agreement to come BEFORE asking the question would do a lot alleviate my suspicion but, depending on the circumstances, perhaps not entirely. I would therefore consider it rude to ask.
I've been involuntarily guilty of this faux pas myself. A guy from my choir made some efforts to become friends with me. He's been suggesting we'd do some stuff together and called me a couple of times. As it played out, I happened to be busy every time. However, he rang and invited me to some sort of birthday get together. Me, being thrown by the phone ringing and all, did not get him at first and thought it was someone else's party. Finding that kind of strange (but feeling guilty for being unable to attend the previously suggested activities, I did not want to dismiss it outright) I asked who else would be there. When the misunderstanding had been cleared up (it was his party, but held at his girlfriend's mother's apartment) I felt really rude for having asked the question. Here was a guy trying to become friends with me and I had indicated that I wasn't interested in spending time with him unless there were people there I already knew.
Of course, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for wanting to know who else will be attending a social gathering. If I knew that A wouldn't come because B would be there, I wouldn't be offended in the least (although I would perhaps consider it a bit strange). If someone were intensely uncomfortable among big crowds, well then I'd hope to hang out with her in another setting. However, if you want to avoid being rude to someone you'd best make certain that you communicate properly that the reason why you hesitate to provide an unequivocal "yes" to the invitation has nothing to do with the host as a person or your wish to develop a friendship with him or her.
Interesting. I hadn't even thought of the whole cultural thing. You'd think that having a stepdad from Virginia I might be a little more tuned in, but I think he's sort of an exception over there. Actually, he's pretty much an exception wherever he is.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Okay, no matter you are from in the country, this has GOT to be classless. It's the response from a guy friend of some of the girls coming. I thought I'd give him an opportunity to go if he would like, but I am bribing no one. On the other hand, he at least seems aware that it's not kosher to ask. And yet he does it anyway...
Side Observation: When people write e-mails and say tacky things, they use ellipses after. Maybe they are trying to imply the politeness is being left unsaid.
Anyway, here it is. And it's from a guy. I'm so not impressed.
quote:so well how do i put this without starting gossip, um.. im a guy so, we tend to do things for girls when it comes to this stuff, lets face it us guys are so easy sometimes, i know its the whats in it for me thing, but it really is, unless of course it was a basketball game or something then i just dont care who goes.. and im sure you may be reversing the roles and asking who was going before committing if it was actually a basketball game.
*sigh* What was I thinking? Actually, I was thinking he knows some of the girls, he isn't dating anybody, and he's reasonably clean.
I'm really, really not surprised, though. He was good friends with a friend of mine, but stopped talking to her when it became apparent she wasn't romantically interested. This also happened to coincide with her mother being diagnosed with cancer and her ex-boyfriend getting married to a girl he'd known for two months. Nice timing!
I'm sitting on my hands for a minute before answering. I'm trying to stem back some of the Katie-juice that's begging to lay him out. There's nothing good that can come from that, and it would be more out of principle than anything because while I am ruffled, thanks to the insights in this thread, I'm not upset. *curtsey's to Hatrack*
Added: Yeah, okay. It's all sent. I didn't tell him who is coming, but I did say there was no incentive persuasive enough to get me to a basketball game.
posted
Gah, I'll say it again... the tone of this thread really makes me feel lousy. I'm not a bad person for asking who else is coming to a party. I'm not classless or rude, or at least my friends don't consider me so. I'm a good host and a good guest, and I do whatever I can to make those around me happy and comfortable.
I'm just different! Why is that not okay? Why am I (or those like me) considered "classless" and dismissed just because we don't conform to the exact same social standards that some do? Is that what "class" is? Did I miss the memo?
On another note.... kat, assuming that the majority of the people you're inviting to these events are young, single Mormons... isn't the dating scene a big deal to this demographic? Wouldn't the possibility of a new relationship with someone be a pretty high priority for your guests? Even if they're not Mormon, going on a co-ed road trip with someone who's single and attractive... yeah, that would be a big draw for someone. Are you saying that it shouldn't be? That people should go simply for the artwork and keep their hormones in check the entire time?
I don't know, I'm just confused and a tiny bit offended by this thread. Maybe I'm not making any sense.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
ALR, good manners is made up of petty sacrifices. Your rights aren't being infringed here - there's no right to be invited to anywhere.
That's what classy means - class is the art of handling difficult situations in a manner that offends no one and non-intrusively making those around you pleased and comfortable.
If you are invited to an event and flat-out tell the host that unless there will flirting objects provided you will not come, it's rude. If you won't come for the host and won't come for the event, then don't come.
I am not a dating service, and I won't use my friends as bait.
quote:unless of course it was a basketball game or something then i just dont care who goes.. and im sure you may be reversing the roles and asking who was going before committing if it was actually a basketball game.
This is what I was talking about.
For me, the important thing is the fellowship, not the event.
I think it is just as "rude" or just as common sense to ask " what are we going to do" as "who is going to be there".
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Ayelar, don't sweat it. It is NOT impolite to ask who else will be attending when invited to an event.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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•You invite a lot of people that don't necessarily know you very well, and probably don't know a lot of other people there.
•Can I assume that many of them are young, single Mormons? Or that they're at least young and single?
•The groups are co-ed.
•The events and trips involve lots of getting to know each other in a non-threatening environment for a good amount of time.
And you're not a dating service?
(Honestly, kat, I'm not trying to offend you, and I'll take this down if it does, but I find this absolutely baffling. It's totally outside of my realm of understanding.)
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
No, I'm not. I want to go to the museum, dangit, and there's a bunch of people that I know without family in town who might possibly be having a crummy holiday season and might also want to go to museum. That's what the whole purpose is. That's it. I'm not hunting, and I'm not dangling my friends as bait. If they don't want to go to the museum, then don't go!
Because that's really what will be happening. A trip to the museum, some food gathering, and coming back home.
quote:Ayelar, don't sweat it. It is NOT impolite to ask who else will be attending when invited to an event.
Not even when you make your attendance contingent upon the reply, which it appears as if Kat's "friend" is doing in his e-mail?
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:That's what classy means - class is the art of handling difficult situations in a manner that offends no one and non-intrusively making those around you pleased and comfortable.
class=being a doormat?
What if the host is someone who is quick to take offense, and will fault the guest for something that they honestly thought was an innocent question? Is the guest the classless one?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Nope. Not rude. Rude is saying you'll come, then asking around to find out who's coming and then coming up with a convenient excuse to back out at the last moment.
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posted
Ayelar, it's tacky. You can choose to reject the standard or you can accept the standard and do it anyway, but the standard still says it's tacky.
posted
Who comes up with the standards? Why is this the first time I've ever heard of this particular standard, on an international internet forum?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I mean, heck, if your goal as a classy host is to make everyone as comfortable as possible, shouldn't it be your duty to ensure that they DO know who's coming? So that the large number of shy and socially awkward people out there will be put at ease?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Let's put it this way: when I go out with a group, part of the reason I go out with that particular group is because I like them. If I DON'T like them, I'd go out with a DIFFERENT group.
In the same way, part of the reason I do things is because I like to do things. If someone were to invite me out next Monday, I would ask something like "What did you have in mind to do," and if they said, "I figured we'd catch an indoor tractor pull," I'd politely decline. This is not rude; it saves both of us the awkwardness of dealing with me when I'm bored and dismissive of the activity in question.
In the same way, if someone says, "a bunch of us are going to go out drinking tomorrow," a seriously relevant question is "who, exactly, composes 'us' in this situation?" Since this is going to be a major factor in the event itself, it seems as logical a question as "when are you getting together" and "which bar?"
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Right. So you're saying that some associates of the person asking may not be acceptable to you.
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I don't really want you to say anything in particular, though I am a bit miffed by your assumption that these things that I happen to do make me classless and rude... but it's a very small miff.
Mostly, I'm really interested in this discussion about different etiquette norms, and I'd like to see it continue. In particular, I'd like to know your thoughts on my idea that a truly "classy" host would be obligated to let his or her guests know who was coming, since that would make most of them more happy and comfortable.
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
What if you're the first one invited? "Maybe I'll come, if you can round up some people I'd like."
No, a truly classy host has the judgement to assemble a guestlist that will both be alike enough to get along and different enough to provide some jolt. If you question the guestlist, you're questioning your host.
posted
Sure am. And that's not rude. It's realistic.
Is it better to go along and be miserable than be honest about one's preferred company? It seems to me that the goal of civility is to minimize discomfort.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Right. So you're saying that some associates of the person asking may not be acceptable to you.
Absolutely. Am I required to love all of my friends' friends? If so, I'm going to have to lose a lot of my friends!
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
When you invite someone to an event, most often it is because of that person's relationship to YOU. You like this person and want to spend time with him or her. Naturally you hope the feelings are reciprocated. Stating that you won't come unless a particular person or persons will also be there strikes me as extremely rude. You are basically saying that you don't like me enough to come because of me but still want to take advantage of my hospitality to meet someone else.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Y'all seem awfully concerned with your own personal comfort.
You dislike so many people your friends are close to? You don't have to be best friends with them, but for some reason they appeal to your friend. Saying you don't like implies you don't like the part of your friends those friends appeal to.
And yes, telling your friend that part of them is unacceptable to you and you prefer to not be made aware of it is both tacky and not very good of a friend.
posted
Sadly, sometimes that is true. If you're all going out, and I know that someone will be there who acts like an almost-stalker, I really won't want to go. You might not even know about it, as the hostess. Or, if I know that certain people bring out the bad side of me (like the Wenches, getting me to think innuendos ), perhaps I would not go and expose myself to temptation.
posted
Not coming because someone you don't like will be there is a lot more acceptable than the opposite, I think.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Kat, that very question -- "what do you say if you're the first person invited" -- is always the hard part when you're invited to or throwing a party, in my experience.
After all, if I tell people I'm throwing, say, a birthday party, the first guy I ask is almost certainly going to ask who's going to be there and what we're doing. Realistically, that's just because -- no matter how much he likes me -- it's going to be a lame party if only a small handful of lame people show up and do nothing all night. So I ask a bunch of people at once, or some very good friends FIRST, and run from there.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Well in the case of going out to a bar it isn't even necessarily acceptable or unacceptable but more of, what level of responsibility am I going to have on this expedition?
A) you need at least one designated driver to drive everybody home, and if other friends are less responsible or trustworthy the task falls on you.
B) If you want to drink, possibly excessively you need to know that someone else will scrape you off the floor and drive you home.
C) you need to know how on your guard or not on your guard you need to be, if there are persons who would perhaps take advantage of you there, and if there are other persons who have your back.
In fact except for the designated driver thing, I would say that this applies to most outings.
quote:Y'all seem awfully concerned with your own personal comfort.
So... In the event that you (kat) invite me (saxon) to an event, I should just go without knowing what we're doing or who we're doing it with, and if I end up having a crappy time because you invited people I don't like or planned an event I find uninteresting, possibly thereby causing you and the other guests to have a crappy (or at least less than wonderful) time, then that's preferable to me finding out beforehand that I would have a crappy time because I was trying to make you happy? Or are you saying that there's no possibility that you might misjudge who or what I might find interesting? Or, to put it into more of the context you're talking about, that some stranger has no chance of thus misjudging me?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Now, in Kat's defense, there is a huge difference between doing this politely and saying something like, "I'll go if you get more interesting people."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I host 2-3 events per month. There are usually 15-50 people at each.
When I invite people, especially if they are newcomers to the group, I invite them to come anytime during the event; stay as long as they choose and DEFINITELY bring a friend if they want to.
If it's an event where the group will be in motion (trip to the zoo, movies, museum) I hand out a list of what will be happening when.
For me, as a hostess, the most important thing is to offer my friends a mini vacation from their normal routine. This gift comes with no strings attached and while they are at my event they are not my hostage. They are still my guest, my friend. And if the event is in my home, they'll be treated as family.
As a hostess and as a friend, it is important for me to make it safe for people to say "No" or to say "Yes" at the last minute. I don't decide whether their reasons are good enough. I trust that they can make their own decisions and juggle their own schedules.
posted
I'm not saying that finding out is rude. I'm saying that questioning your host directly and letting them know your appearance is contingent on them setting the right bait is rude.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
So, then, it would be more polite for me to say, "Right on! I'm so there!" and then go ask somebody else who's going (how I know that this other person knows who will be there I have no idea, since, not knowing who will be there, I don't know who to ask. Maybe I got a private investigator.) and, finding out that it's mostly people I wouldn't like, call you up a little later and come up with some lie about a doctor's appointment that I forgot, or a business trip or something?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm floored by two things in this thread. The first is the amount of disagreement over things I thought were universal. The second is the amount of passion it is bringing up.
No, saxon, but that's not the only scenario possible. Mrs. M. shared some lovely alternatives earlier.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Kate - It makes you feel used, so in your opinion it's rude.
I would not feel used, so in my opinion it would not be rude.
I think people would be arguing this point of what is 'tacky, classless and rude' with a little less passion if there were a few modifiers in there. Like, "I, personally, find this classless and so prefer people don't put me on the spot like this."
I'm sorry, Kat. There are extremely few universals in what makes something rude to someone else when it comes to socializing, and this isn't one of them.
But, if it's rude to you and other people are aware of this and persist in doing so, then yes. That shows a lack of class and tact.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Partly I feel that the answer depends on the event-type. If this is the kind of event that requires mailed invitations then it's rarely okay to ask Who Else Will Be There. It's up to the host/hostess whether or not to be offended.
I've held a bunch of dinner parties this year. And every time I send out the invite email (usually everyone has already heard from me person that it will be happening), I consciously put everyone's names in the To: field (usually 10-15 emails). I want them to know who's invited and who may be coming. The invite list changes slightly from party to party.
My biggest pet peeve is when they show up very late. I often spend several hours preparing dinner and making _very_ sure that everything will be done at the right time. When half the people show up 30 minutes late, it frustrates me. Now I just make it clear in the email that everyone should come on time or warn me beforehand.
You have been talking about people who don't know you very well. I honestly don't invite many of those. Those kinds of people would likely be brought by my primary invitees and would therefore talk to the contact person about such things.
I suppose what it boils down to is why the host/hostess is putting this event together. Much of it is to see friends. Some of it is to feel appreciated. But isn't it also to make your friends happy? If they're only coming to check out the opposite sex, then perhaps simply don't invite them next time. Construct the event how you want it to feel.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I know being around strangers can be hard.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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), perhaps I would not go and expose myself to temptation.
