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Author Topic: Pretty much the only thing that could make GWB cool.
Slash the Berzerker
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Yeah, it's a publicity stunt but if it actually gets the space program back on track, I don't care. Mars or bust, baby.

Would it help if we claimed that Al Qaida had secret bases on mars? Heck, it's even more believable than the Saddam/Osama connection.

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Frisco
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Or we could launch a pre-emptive strike on Martians, who ,I've heard from reliable sources, have weapons of mass destruction.

------------------

I do hope this gets us to Mars, even if Bush is just using it to get re-elected.

Man, this week alone, he's made runs for the SciFi nerd vote and the Hispanic vote. What's next? Is he going to decriminalize marijuana?

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ak
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Wow, if he would just switch and be in favor of reproductive rights for women, and not be such a sexist, and... and... and... I'd even be tempted to vote for him. Space colonies vs. reproductive rights for women. Which is more important to the survival of the species? It's so hard to decide that one.

How could I ever vote Republican, though? How could I bring myself to do it? Think of the supreme court justices he will nominate! What will happen to civil liberties? The man's a dictator! What was I thinking???? <whew, so glad that fit passed>

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KarlEd
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This morning on the radio they said that a first manned mission under this proposal would likely not include a landing on Mars. Did anyone else hear this?

If this is true, what could possibly be gained by flying a human team all the way to Mars and back and not trying to land? What could a manned "space-only" mission do that an unmanned one couldn't for probably 1/10th the cost?

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Noemon
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I hadn't heard that Karl; that's very strange.

Anne Kate, I was having similar thoughts this morning. You and I feel the same about the importance of colonization of space. Could I vote for Bush, with whom I disagree on just about everything else, and in whom I have very little trust, on the basis of this issue? Almost. I really hope that whoever wins the democratic primaries doesn't choose this as an issue on which to disagree with Bush.

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Bokonon
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The rationale of not landing the first manned mission to Mars would be the same reason the first few manned missions to the moon did not land. It would be useful to see what a year in stressfull space travel will do to crews, it would also test human-habitable space vehicles, and perhaps provide evidence for tweaks to the systems.

-Bok

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Tresopax
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Now? What about the projected $500 billion deficit we already have?

Cool or not, you can't just buy everything you want and stick it on the credit card! What are we gonna cut to make room in the budget?

[ January 09, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

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Javert
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Karl, if they said "the first manned mission under this proposal" they may mean his entire space proposal, not specifically landing on Mars.

So maybe the first manned mission will be to go back to the Moon and find a good realtor. [Big Grin]

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AndrewR
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I must admit, like Slash and ak, I am becoming tempted to vote for GW. When will we have another chance like this?
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Robespierre
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The only way all of this good intentioned talk of re-entering the field of space exploration will amount to anything, is if we can lay some sort of ground work for private property rights in space and get the private sector involved. I don't mean private property just for americans, I mean some sort of international agreement on how to handle activity by individuals and corporations in space and on celestial bodies.
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Dan_raven
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I like what Paul Harvey said.

"President Bush is interested in finding out if there is life on Mars, and if it interested in coming to the US as maids and gardeners."

From what I heard, first we build a permanent settlement on the Moon, then we use that to go to Mars.

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KarlEd
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What I heard was pretty much ". . . including a manned mission to Mars. Such a first mission would not likely include a Martian landing."

I see the value and importance of testing lengthy stays in space and testing any new vehicles. However, all this testing should probably be done in an Earth or Lunar orbit. Once we shoot them out of the range of easy return, it's not really a test anymore, is it? And after going to all the trouble to send someone on a 2-year trip through space, wouldn't it make sense to include some sort of genuine purpose for them having gone that far? What would be such a purpose if not to actually land there?

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Storm Saxon
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Cost of WoT: 1 trillion dollars

Dartboard with picture of Howard Dean: 20 dollars

Deal with Satan: immortal soul

Speech to announce your 'vision' to fly to mars: zero dollars.

Subsequent additional funding for program: zero dollars

Shock of losing re-election to Democratic clown despite all your political maneuvering: priceless

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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From where will he draw the money to fund this mandate? I'm just curious, because I like the plan, I liked many parts of "No Child Left Behind," and I just had dinner with a teacher last night who is about to be Nationally Certified, and I asked her if any more money came with it. She said that there used to be a 10,000 dollar bonus, as it's a rigorous process that is supposed to make teachers more versatile and which costs 3,000 to apply for, but the federal bonus was cut last year because of the budget. So I'll ask again, where is the money coming from. Though I'm also a little curious as to whom will the money go.

[ January 09, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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Javert Hugo
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You're so optimistic, Stormy. It's sweet.

In other news, it's good to see you, Slash. [Smile]

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Dan_raven
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You underestimate our President.

This is not a lot of hot air.

There are three very tangible motives for this project:

1) Massive spending to big corporate suppliers who support Bush. (The only way to spend more money on a limited number of his buddies is to start a war.)

2) Any empire needs to colonize somewhere, and everywhere he turns on Earth, some liberal group would complain.

3) Guantanemo is way to small for shipping all of our dangerous political prisoners--er terrorist sympathisers too. Besides, its way to public for the neccesary measures required to gather needed information. If we can't just shoot them, we can quietly keep them under wraps on the Moon.

ok, that last one is a bit far fetched.

how about, while we all stare at the hero's setting up homekeeping on the moon, addendums to bills are passed and signed, executive orders are signed, and redistricting plans are dreamed up that will go unnoticed down here on earth.

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Storm Saxon
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Have you heard of the Bush kiss of death, Javert? [Razz] *points in the general direction of head start*
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Bokonon
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Karl, that sort of testing can't really be done on earth or the moon. You can't know the unique stresses of a trip to Mars until you go there. If there is something unforeseen, either due to mental stress, or equipment issues, to add the pressure of a martian landing to the first mission is a unnecessarily complicated, in my book. If you try for both and the stressors occur, you've wasted all the time and materials for creating a Martian lander without it actually being used.

There can still be some science done on the flyby, so it wouldn't be just a pleasure cruise.

-Bok

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Noemon
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Another reason why the US might be motivated to set up shop on the moon is that there are a number of countries, including China and India, that are headed in that direction themselves. If the US doesn't begin working now, it'll be forced to play catch up to these countries in the future.
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Dan_raven
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Then there is the buzines of misnaming any project:

The "No Child Left Behind" which has left behind whole school districts.

The "Clean Air Initiative" which increases allowable pollutants.

With plans like this, I look forward to being able to pick up a used Space Shuttle on E-Bay after Nasa's going out of business sale.

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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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Don't forget the "Patriot Act." I do wonder how history will write this legacy: selling off our liberties out of fear. In the fifties, I'm sure Joe McCarthy and the House Un-America Activities Committee sounded reasonable when they were performing all manners of Unamerican actvities in the name of rooting out communists. Hell, I'm sure that the Hitler's relocation program sounded resonable to the Germans at the time. We haven't even learned enough after the American-Japanese internment. But we, this day, should know better. We should know that we can't auction off the very elements that define the virtues of this nation every time we get a little spooked. Where is our sense of integrity or purpose?

[ January 09, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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Noemon
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Well said, Irami.
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Storm Saxon
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I blame the so-called moral majority.
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Slash the Berzerker
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I admit to being a tech worshipping misanthropist.

Get us on other planets. I don't care where the money comes from. I personally think that there is nothing the human race can do that is more important than leaving the cradle.

500 years from now, will anyone remember the nice social programs that were in place? No, they'll remember when humanity finally broke that last barrier, and became more than one more link in the long chain of mass extinctions.

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Noemon
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The questions are

A)Whether Bush will deliver on this promise

and

B) Is it something that his democratic opponent would back also?

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ak
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Yes, Slash, I had the exact same thought. What will any of those other things matter beside the simple yes no question, will we make it into space (independent colonies) in time? Yes or no. Species survival or species extinction. It may be as simple as that.

But the OTHER single most important thing we can do for survival of the species is to educate and empower women worldwide to decide for themselves the timing and number of children they will have. If we do that quickly enough, the world population growth just may slow down enough to give us a few more years, to give us barely enough time. With a stroke of the pen on the very first day Bush was in office, he acted to gut the program we did have that worked toward that goal.

We are poised on the very brink of extinction, in a race with death now. We have a window of time of indetermined length, probably more than 30 years but most likely something less than 200 years. Every year counts. And he did that.

If the means are all screwed up, it's really hard to see how the ends can work out right. I don't usually think it's wise to invest in ends if the means are all wrong. No good can come of that.

I don't know. But no democrat will invest in space these days. Will they? Can there be someone today who has the vision of Presidents Kennedy or Johnson? And if we stay in this holding pattern for much longer, our window of opportunity will surely close. This is a very hard choice.

[ January 09, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: ak ]

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Tonatiuh
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Im also worried about the us national debt its well over 6 billion http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
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Icarus
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quote:
The only way all of this good intentioned talk of re-entering the field of space exploration will amount to anything, is if we can lay some sort of ground work for private property rights in space and get the private sector involved.
Oh, but there is! Cor and I already own a chunk of the moon!

[Big Grin]

[ January 09, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]

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Storm Saxon
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Look, I'm all for getting us into space, but to my entirely undeducated mind, I'm not sure we should do it for three reasons:

1) I have yet to see anyone give me a good reason why a human should go to mars rather than a robot.

and

2) We don't know enough about Mars to even safely land a freaking robot on the surface and get it out safely, much less a human.

Finally, 3, let's build something that can get off this rock cheaply before we start sending people that far away. If it's a choice between sending one person to Mars and squandering what little money the space program has on a pr stunt or funneling the money into basic research and biding our time so that we can do it right, let's just bide our time and work on learning how to swim in our own little bit of tidal pool before we start heading out into the sea.

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The Rabbit
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I'm all for going to Mars, but I have to ask where the money will come from. The american medical system is a disaster that is about to blow in our faces. Current estimates are that 18,000 americans die annually due to lack of health insurance. Health insurance premiums are rising at 15% annually. At this rate, they will exceed payroll in 15 years. Education is in desperate need of money. The US economy is facing a critical challenge from global competition. We have a huge number of children living in poverty and the number of working poor is skyrocketing. I simply can't justify letting children go hungry or sick people die so that we can put a man on Mars and I can't imagine that Bush will propose raising taxes or cutting the weapons budget to fund the mission.
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Kasie H
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I have to admit, I'm solidly with ak on this one.....and with Slash too. If the democratic candidates come out against this....I may not vote in the next election. This issue is *so* important to me, but at the same time I don't know that a possibly false promise is enough to make me vote for Bush.
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Lalo
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I'm rather apathetic on the issue. What's the point of sending a man to Mars? What's he going to do, step out, give a cute soundbyte, and head back?

If we want to do research, we can send robots. We know we can go to Mars, if we had some sudden pressing need. We don't need to prove it to ourselves. But why dedicate all that money to such a pointless little venture? What is humanity as a whole going to get out of it, except for a couple pretty pictures and a few more scripted remarks and a staggering debt?

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Scott R
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Negative Views (1 astrologer, 2 Artistes)

Positive View- Explorers and Social Scientists

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Shan
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quote:
Man, this week alone, he's made runs for the SciFi nerd vote and the Hispanic vote. What's next? Is he going to decriminalize marijuana?
Nahhh - remember he promised school vouchers so all those disgruntled parents could afford to send their kids to private school pre-election . . . ? No worries - it never happened and no matter what's promised in the heat of the moment will 99.99999% be unlikely to happen next term.
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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I'm all for going to space. I also think that social programs will get us there faster and in better spirits and with a more refined purpose. *thinks* Social programs will lead to a well-educated populace which will more readily devote energy and resources to colonizing space, whereas the alternative society will be too preoccupied with shoes and football to want to shell out tax money for such a bold and abstract endeavor with no immediate economic or even security gains.

quote:

I don't know. But no democrat will invest in space these days. Will they?

I have yet to hear a democrat come out against investing in space for the sake of exploration. They have come out against missile defense shield for entirely different reasons.

[ January 10, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]

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Tresopax
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This speculation is interesting, but the fact remains that we already spent the money we could use for this on a tax cut and two wars. Does anyone really think this project could ever be completed while we have a $500 billion deficit, a war on terror, a war in Afghanistan, and a war in Iraq? Not until we elect someone willing to raise more tax money, at least (or cut spending somewhere!)

As I said in another thread, if we wanted to go into space again, we should have thought of it BEFORE committing billions and billions on a war in Iraq. Now we must pay the price of our decisions, and that means not being able to afford some of the stuff we may consider important to do.

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Scott R
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Because heaven knows we can't be involved in a space-race and an arms race at the same time. . .
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Maccabeus
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Regarding landers....

Why not send our best-guess model and test it unmanned on the first flight out? If it wrecks (or just performs badly), we try again. But if it works well enough, we could go ahead and send some people down.

Just thinking. I have a lot of time to do that alone at night.

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JonnyNotSoBravo
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Good one Scott R! Although Bush wanting to be just like JFK seems a bit of a stretch...

quote:
Tonatiuh wrote: Im also worried about the us national debt its well over 6 billion
You skipped three zeroes...it's almost 7 trillion, not billion...
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Dan_raven
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I think I was right.

I heard on the news (but haven't confirmed a source yet) that the plan will consist of:

1) A time table that sets the goal 20-25 years in the future.

2) This will be a mostly unfunded mandate. There will be no initial giant cost for the government, but one set up far enough down the road that Bush won't have to axe it and his replacements will have to be the evil people who must cut our space program or risk bankruptcy.

3) The first step that will be mandated is for Nasa to get rid of its shuttles within the next 10 years.

That's right. Nasa's inexpensive working space truck is to be junked. Whether there will be replacements or we stick to one use rockets was not made clear.

But when I joked that Bush's "Space Initative" will result in Nasa having to sell off its space shuttles, I was apparently right.

I also expect other, non-critical science (like tests on the Ozone Layer and Global Warming or other environmentally friendly hard science) to be cut so Nasa can focus on Mars.

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Bokonon
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The space shuttle is the opposite of inexpensive space truck.

It takes a team of nearly 20,000 people to inspect, repair, maintain, and launch a single shuttle.

-Bok

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Tresopax
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quote:
Because heaven knows we can't be involved in a space-race and an arms race at the same time. . .
...and rebuilding Iraq, and fighting a war on terrorism, and cutting taxes, and still trying to pay off the debt from the last time we had both an arms race and a space race.
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Irami Osei-Frimpong
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The project is looking to take 151 billion, and Bush has set aside one billion out of the budget. I don't want to say that it's more tough talk and unfunded promises, but it looks like tough talk and another unfunded promise. I'd have more faith if he decided that he was going to be serious about paying for it, but by the numbers, he isn't.
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