quote: Because a) that gets the other brother involved, introducing some peer pressure; b) telling him about the saved games thing in advance gives the kid a chance to simply move them somewhere else on the box, and we know based on his description that he's sneaky enough to do this.
My parents did this, and to this day, my older 22 year old sister and I still can't stand each other, but we get along for our parent's sake.
<rant>And since it effected her, she thought she was my parent. She still does. </rant>
Bad idea Tom. It has created resentment that my parents create a decade ago that still hasn't faded.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Give it time Nick. My sister and I resented each other until I was 24 and she was 22. Now we’re great friends. It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Give it time Nick. My sister and I resented each other until I was 24 and she was 22. Now we’re great friends. It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
Well, it's not like we can develop our relationship. I'm still going to school in northern California, and she's at San Diego State. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:It takes a while to grow out of a childhood sibling relationship into an adult one.
It doesn't always happen. I have an older brother and we don't have a relationship. But I never see him - he is married with two kids and his own life - and that may have something to do with it. Since we've barely spoken as adults, there no way to change things.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I wonder what would happen if you respected her? Not by obedience, by any means, but if you told her what you admired and liked about her, and did find something she did that you could applaud and even let her be right on. Full-out resistance on all levels doesn't seem to be working and trumpeting yourself against someone with no legitimate hold on you is hardly a worthy cause; maybe you could make the first move?
That's only if you want a relationship with your sister. If you prefer to be at loggerheads, by all means, continue. Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Yes, but Ayelar, the son's disregarding of the rules is completely disrespectful, too.
Again, I don't advocate deleting the saved games. However, I do think that the kid needs punishment. Punishment for blatant disregard of his parent's authority.
I'm with Ayelar all the way on this one. Sixteen is far too old for the unquestioning "yes, Daddy" bullshit. If the guy disagrees with his parents, he needs to do what he feels is right -- and if they can't convince him with anything other than arbitrary and possibly cruel punishment, their authority's pretty baseless as is. He's his own man by now, and should have been for several years. If his parents are determined to retard his growth, fine, but what do they think they'll get out of the process? Either he'll be a strong enough man that he'll grow up to despise them, or they'll break him before he has a chance to forge his mettle with experience, and he'll grow up as a weak mama's boy. Are either really desirable?
Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience. While I feel he should have confronted them directly rather than sneak around their backs, I won't fault him for at least being bright enough to realize his parents don't have the right to make his decisions for him.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: I wonder what would happen if you respected her? Not by obedience, by any means, but if you told her what you admired and liked about her, and did find something she did that you could applaud and even let her be right on. Full-out resistance on all levels doesn't seem to be working and trumpeting yourself against someone with no legitimate hold on you is hardly a worthy cause; maybe you could make the first move?
You have assumed I haven't tried? My relationship with her is still a one-way bridge over a river infested with killer pirahnas.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
i wouldn't describe my sister and i as close, but i think living in totally different time zones has only helped our relationship.
given enough consecutive years of not being at each others throats, we can actually enjoy the small amount of time we spend together. somewhere in the past six years, i learned to let my hair down a little, and she figured out that responsibility has privlidges and consequences.
over the break, we were sitting at the table and i reached out to examin a braid in her hair. she told me to be careful because her scalp is really sensitive at the base of the braid. i laughed and asked how she managed to still have any feeling left in her head, because i sure don't (tugging on my own for demonstration).
i am amazed that we have come so far.
Posts: 3956 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Just for the sake of conversation, what do you all think would happen if the dad just stepped back, gave his kid a hug, told him he loved him, and gave this kid space, but then encouraged him to do something better with his life?
This is a serious question. Perhaps I am naive, but I just don't see this as a 'rules' issue, but a...family relationship issue? As a character issue? And I just don't see any of the consequences offered by anyone in this thread (bios password, deleting games/the game) as working to move the kid along.
And yes, I know the situation has been 'resolved'. I'm just interested in people's opinion.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
"Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience."
Out of interest, at what age do you think kids are old enough to choose to neglect their studies, disobey their parents, and waste all their time on computer games?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think it's obvious that taking away priveleges hasn't helped. Frankly, if I were in the situation this boy is in I would just stop doing any schoolwork in protest. Especially if the kid already wasn't too concerned with his grades, it's not that hard of an idea to come up with and I'm sure it would have occured to him somewhere during this whole thing. I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life, with the understanding that if the kid doesn't go to college he will not be welcome at home after he's graduated.
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posted
"I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life...."
Do you think this comes at 16? Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
Thank you for that opinion Tom. There really IS a point at where the parent has to step back. It might be 16 for some kids, it might be 18 for others. My parents did last year, and I'm 19 now. It has worked wonders. My grades have improved, and I barely even play computer games anymore. Now I play Xbox games, which almost amounts to the same thing. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:"Good on the kid for going against a rule he disagrees with. He's long past the age he should've realized his parents aren't gods and don't deserve unquestioning obedience."
Out of interest, at what age do you think kids are old enough to choose to neglect their studies, disobey their parents, and waste all their time on computer games?
The same age I mentioned above -- when he realizes his parents aren't gods. If he's going to obey his parents, I'd prefer that he do it out of willingness and experience, not out of fear of a threat of punishment. Wouldn't you?
Everyone's going to make mistakes as they grow up. I submit that making mistakes is necessary to growing up. While there are consequences to bad grades and extended computer time, he needs to learn why for himself -- taking mommy's word for it won't help him develop in the least. In cases like these, parental guidance can too easily turn to parental control and stifle any modicum of maturity that the kid may be trying to develop. While I've never been a parent, I'd much rather have a maturing son than an obedient puppet. Again I ask, wouldn't you?
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
Tom, you're what.... 25? 26?
Please don't play the age card... it doesn't add anything to the discussion to try to throw your years and years of experience around on us... oh, earlier twenty-somethings. Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote: Do you think this comes at 16? Wow. I would say the young people here lack a certain amount of perspective.
From your perspective, how would you force this kid to study, ignore computer games, etc, without burning your bridges with him?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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A child whose bridges are "burned" by the removal of computer privileges is, in my opinion, a child who is seriously in need of additional parental discipline in the first place. Moreover, I categorically reject Eddie's assertion that a child who's old enough to start disobeying his parents is, by the very virtue of his disobedience, now mature enough to be permitted to run his own affairs.
I'm speaking here as someone who was regularly beaten as a child, and someone who's watched my brother, through a combination of permissiveness (which fed a serious drug habit) and short-sighted "interventions," slowly detach from the rest of the family.
There's no need to tread on eggshells around some pouty-ass kid like he's all grown up and ready to start making his own choice. He's screwing up his schoolwork; his parents don't need to -- and SHOULDN'T -- respect his "decision" to do that.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: There's no need to tread on eggshells around some pouty-ass kid like he's all grown up and ready to start making his own choice. He's screwing up his schoolwork; his parents don't need to -- and SHOULDN'T -- respect his "decision" to do that.
Now THAT I agree with. I just didn't agree about your statement about the young adults here (like myself).
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Belle, I do have a question for you. Do you think you are fair with your child Natalie (I'm assuming you are because of how you said you would have handled the situation) because your mother was with you? Do you believe people pass on their parenting traits? I know that no parent is the same, but do some of the traits you get as a parent come uncontrollably from your parents? Just wanted to know your opinion.
They can and they can't. There's a cycle of parenting traits, whether good or bad, that you learn from your parents as a child. Education can help you learn good parenting, ignorance can lead to bad parenting. It's far from cut and dry.
quote:It's just that it's mostly non-parents who have been in the situation of being totally into a computer game recently, and can easily emulate with what the son will feel if his father goes through with this.
Yes, but part of maturity is being able to empathize with both parties and not just taking one side.
quote:What good does it do your child if they can only get good grades with your help? They might as well get bad grades, but because being unable to work without your parent's help isn't going to help you much in life.
Just because you've reached adolescence doesn't mean you know everything. Most teens DO, but when they reach young adulthood, they realize they don't know crap. Anyway, supporting and encouraging your child through all their school years is incredibly important. The kids who do better in school TEND to have parents who take an interested and help in managing time and work. Parents aren't a crutch, they're training wheels.
quote:I actually was very annoyed about this at one point, after finding out that a classmate received a "performance bonus" (read: cash) for each A she brought home on a report card.
My sister got cash for Cs and Bs. I got nothing for my As. *kicks parents*
quote:"Aaah! You don't understand me! You hate me! You want to ruin my life!"
Exactly.
quote:The parents are really at their wits end; they've tried all of this and more, and just haven't had any luck motivating the kid at all, with any of it. I personally find some of the measures they've taken to be a bit draconian, but I recognize that my co-worker is floundering a bit because he's scared that the kid is on a path that will result in an unhappy life, and nothing he does to help, whether it's working with the kid on his homework, punishing him, rewarding him, or what seems to work. It isn't really a black and white situation.
Perhaps a call to the school guidance counselor or social worker is in order? Teamwork with the people who work with their son can help a great deal more.
quote:Personally, I think that the kid sounds depressed. I'm only getting the story from the father's perspective, though, so I could easily be wrong. My co-worker doesn't think depression is a factor.
Has he been tested for AD/HD? Depression is often co-morbid with AD/HD and this kid seems to exhibit many AD/HD symptoms from your report.
quote:Just seems like the parents who destroy their relationships with their kids in the name of grades and ambitions need to take a look at their priorities.
Taking away computer privileges is not relationship destruction, typically. Reality is that much more serious and harmful things can happen in families. Removal of those privileges is not serious.
quote:I'm with Ayelar all the way on this one. Sixteen is far too old for the unquestioning "yes, Daddy" bullshit. If the guy disagrees with his parents, he needs to do what he feels is right -- and if they can't convince him with anything other than arbitrary and possibly cruel punishment, their authority's pretty baseless as is.
Behavior management is not "yes, daddy" unquestioning bullshit. That would be plain old punishment. If this kid is expected to be treated like man, he should act like one and respect his father's rules since he lives under his father's roof. If he's determined to be his own man, then he can do so and move out.
quote:Just for the sake of conversation, what do you all think would happen if the dad just stepped back, gave his kid a hug, told him he loved him, and gave this kid space, but then encouraged him to do something better with his life?
That sort of stuff needs to be coupled with any sort of consistent behavior management. But stepping back and letting the kid have at it when he's floundering already seems harsh as well. Like refusing to operate on a bullet wound victim because there's no anesthesia. It'll hurt him to do the operation, so the patient dies. Family life isn't easy, it's hard work and it isn't painless.
quote:I think there's definately a point where parents have to step back and allow their kid to ruin their own life, with the understanding that if the kid doesn't go to college he will not be welcome at home after he's graduated.
Could you imagine how a kid would feel if his/her own parents just GAVE UP on him?
quote:From your perspective, how would you force this kid to study, ignore computer games, etc, without burning your bridges with him?
quote:Moreover, I categorically reject Eddie's assertion that a child who's old enough to start disobeying his parents is, by the very virtue of his disobedience, now mature enough to be permitted to run his own affairs.
Who said that? A teenager mature enough to run his own affairs should know when and when not to obey his parents -- and sixteen is well beyond the threshold of that maturation. If the kid isn't mature enough to make his own decisions by now, he needs to start making mistakes now before they start counting.
It sounds as though you buy into the my-house-my-rule law, Tom. Which isn't necessarily bad, but hardly useful for raising an creature meant to become an independent adult. The kid's sixteen -- if he doesn't quickly realize the problems of abusing his computer time without mommy nagging at him, he's beyond her help anyway.
As far as the relevance of the computer goes, what correlation exists between the computer game and his academic history?
quote:The kid's grades are pretty bad--mostly Cs with a smattering of Ds. His younger brother gets good grades, and as a result is allowed more computer time. The older brother is ordinarily allowed an hour a night, I believe. He is aware that if his grades were better he could have more computer time, but hasn't done anything to improve his grades. He's fairly bright, apparently, but isn't interested in schoolwork. He isn't, like many of us here, so bright that school is boring to him though; he just isn't interested, and doesn't respond well to carrot-and-stick disclipinary strategies.
The kid's grades were apparently bad before the game, and they'll be bad afterwards. Where are you getting that the computer game is at fault for the kid's poor grades?
I take issue with your claim that the child needs to obey the parent -- patently false, as your very own example shows. You were abused by a parent -- do you really think that parent deserves your respect, let alone your unquestioning obedience?
Admittedly, I may be speaking from a biased perspective. My dad left shortly after my birth, my mother's been frantic with her job all my life, and my older brother stormed out of the one-bedroom apartment we shared when he was fourteen, never to return, after we punched in every door but the front in our fights. I raised myself, mostly, and as a result I can't imagine a sixteen-year-old incapable of handling such basic decisions as how much time to spend on the computer. Does his mother still wipe his ass, too? The kid needs to walk for himself at some point, and he should have learned how years ago. The longer he's not allowed to walk for himself, the more he's going to stumble once he does -- and he'll be stumbling during the most dangerous and alien years of his life if walking's postponed too long.
That isn't to say I don't understand your point about permissiveness -- I'm friends with far too many spoiled potheads to hold fantasies about the virtues of hands-off parenting. But isn't there a middle ground? Permissiveness is as far from guidance as control is, albeit the opposite end of the spectrum -- can't you advise and guide your kid without playing the role of an unquestionable deity?
Of course, maybe I expect too much. If the kid's doomed to crash and burn anyway, I guess there's no point to giving him a trial by fire -- but as many faults as the hands-off approach has, it doesn't sound as though the hands-around-the-neck approach has worked thus far.
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quote:Could you imagine how a kid would feel if his/her own parents just GAVE UP on him?
Yes, because my dad gave up on my brothers temporarily after my mom died. He just hid. He bought them cell phones, said please don't do anyting stupid, and hid.
He didn't check report cards. He didn't make them go to church. He didn't screen their friends.
One brother couldn't be screwed up if someone tried, but my middle brother was cast asea. He got into trouble with the law, almost dropped out of school, skipped church for six months before my dad figured it out, and basically said he could take care of himself at fifteen and my dad said, "Okay." and that was it.
Now, that was a pretty traumatic event and so I'll cut my dad some slack, but the effects were not good. We're not a family, and my brother is angry, cynical, and disenfranchised. Don't abandon the kid. He needs parents more now, not less.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:can't you advise and guide your kid without playing the role of an unquestionable deity?
quote:as many faults as the hands-off approach has, it doesn't sound as though the hands-around-the-neck approach has worked thus far.
I don't agree with Lalo on everything, but I think this is spot-on. Textbook parenting is all fine and good if the parents have raised the kid from the start to be responsible and self motivated. If they haven't, though, they need to step back and build that foundation before the kid is going to give a crap about what his parents want him to do.
posted
Stepping back and letting a do whatever he/she wants while trying to build a relationship isn't going to build one built around trust. Why? No matter what age, people who have parents need for their parents to provide them with protection and safety. If inconsistent behavior management or the use of arbitrary punishments have failed to create this structured environment, then parents need to begin to construct that environment by using fair, natural consequences. Choices that anyone makes will bring about consequences. Have fair rules with natural consequences for either following or breaking those rules is a step towards building a relationship.
The other thing is at least these parents have serious interest in their son and his succcess and long-term well being. Sure, they might not be educated, but they CARE. Taking that care and some education and turning the situation around is great. A relationship right now between that father and son is far from destroyed. The father obviously cares enough to want to do right by his son, he's just at a loss at what to do. The son is so obviously floundering right now that if the father stepped back, patted the son on the back and said, "You do what you need to." The son will have a crisis--he might think he knows everything but is presented a situation in which he is entirely unsuccessful and safe. It is a parent's job to provide structure to provide a safe environment. Parents who haven't abused or neglected their children have done that in part, even if they suck at behavior management and punish the kid instead. But parents like that can turn around and more often than not the family life can be helped a great deal. It's tough, it's far from painless, but it can be done. And when there's care and interest from the parent, a dogged unwillingness to give up on their kid, and no past abuse or neglect, the work can be done relatively easily.
But aside from the son's disinterest in what seems everything but the game's, this is a family far, far from dysfunction, as is the father and son's relationship, which looks mostly to be a normal teenage relationship with a parent. Son struggling for independence and his own identity, father desperately trying to help, both completely conflicted because the son still needs his parents but mostly thinks he doesn't.
When a kid says, "You're ruining my life!" unless he's being abused or neglected, his life isn't being ruined or relationships destroyed. This is reality and no family relationships are a cakewalk.
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