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Author Topic: Possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever heard...
Godric
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This is actually a rather dated news story (14/12/2002), but I just stumbled across it today.

Cannibal's victim wrote will

quote:
Kassel, Germany - The victim in the cannibal murder case in Germany wrote his will immediately before he met his murderer, authorities said Friday amid mounting indications that victim and killer both engaged in cannibalism.

"The victim appeared to be fully aware of the situation," an investigator said. "Videotape material definitely shows both him and the suspect engaged in eating his own flesh prior to his death."

Law officers who have seen the video made by the suspect of the final moments of his victim's life were said to be undergoing psychiatric counselling.

The 41-year-old suspect, identified only as Armin M, admitted having videotaped himself killing the man he had met via a gay Internet chat room. Both men were computer experts, both described as "Internet addicts". Authorities filed murder charges against the reclusive computer systems expert on Thursday.

His 42-year-old victim, a computer chip developer at Siemens corporation in Berlin identified only as Bernd Juergen B, willingly allowed himself to be led to the slaughter, police said.

Will notarised

On the morning of his disappearance March 9, 2001, Bernd Juergen B wrote out his will and had it notarised. He left the bulk of his estate including a lavish penthouse apartment and &50 000 worth of computer equipment to his live-in partner, a man named Rene.

Rene knew nothing of his plans and discovered the will only after Bernd Juergen B was reported missing, according to Berliner Morgenpost newspaper. The victim reportedly sold most of his other belongings, including a sports car just before his disappearance.

Unknown to his friend Rene, the victim had told his boss at Siemens he was taking that Friday off "to attend to some personal matters" and co-workers caught sight of him at a subway station in Berlin. That was the last time he was seen in Berlin.

According to police, the victim had several thousand dollars in cash and his passport when he travelled 300km from Berlin to the alleged murderer's rambling half-timbered house near Kassel.

The two men had met via a gay Internet chat room notice placed by the murderer, one of 80 such notices he had put on the Internet. The notices read: "Gay male seeks hunks 18-30 to slaughter."

Chat roomm

Police on Friday said a chat room user tipped them off to the existence of the ads. They now know of at least five respondents to the ad, besides undercover officers who answered it and quickly determined it was meant literally.

In addition to frozen human flesh and skeletal remains, police found the cellar had been renovated into a veritable two-room abattoir, including trough drains and meat hooks.

Police on Friday said the video shows the victim willingly allowed himself to be castrated and both men engaged in eating his severed flesh.

Armin M stabbed the man to death and suspended his body upside- down from a meat hook to gut and clean it. Then he dismembered the body. He froze the meat in "meal-sized packets" and ate most of it, burying the portions he did not eat.

Police used diggers to unearth body parts on the grounds of his sprawling 17th Century estate in the idyllic central German town of Rotenburg an der Fulda. The body parts were undergoing DNA testing to determine whether they came from perhaps more than one victim.

Authorities on Friday said there they have found no indications that more than one person's remains had been disposed of at the estate.

'Mama's boy'

The murder suspect was described by neighbours as a pleasant and polite man who kept to himself.

He served a dozen years in the German armed forces as a non- commissioned officer in ordinance. He was described as an amiable and conscientious military man.

After leaving the military in 1991, he got re-training as a computer technician and until recently had a job with a software firm in the Rhine Valley city of Karlsruhe, 30km south of Rotenburg.

He lived with his mother in the 17th Century half-timbered manor house, staying on there after her death three years ago.

"He was a mama's boy," a neighbour told reporters. "He was totally fixated on his mother, who he said never let him date girls. After she died, he began to thaw out." - Sapa-DPA

The "suspect," while certainly disturbing in and of himself, is actually not so unsettling as the "victim" who apparently willingly submit himself to being killed and eaten -- and, in fact, apparently, literally ate himself.

What the ----?!

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Unmaker
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In Spanish, to say "to each his own," we say "cada quien con su gusto engorda"- "everybody gets fat through his own taste."

I was going somewhere with that, but then I started munching on my fingers, and I lost my train of thought.

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mackillian
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Chianti?
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Slash the Berzerker
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Before the internet, whackos hardly ever ran into each other, being such a small portion of the total population and all.

With the internet, whackos are finding each other in droves. It's the rebirth of every weird ass fetish on the planet. Plushies and furries, anyone?

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JonnyNotSoBravo
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Fava beans?
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Paul Goldner
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A better warning might be in order ... :-/ I just threw up after reading that.
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Godric
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Ah... So the internet is the tool of the devil.

[Evil]

Seriously though, I can stomach quite a bit of whack™ without getting ruffled (at least as a removed observer), but this story evoked Slash-like impulses to go beat the living daylights out of these people (of course, one is already dead, so I guess that would be rather pointless). Ugh...

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Godric
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Sorry Paul -- my thread title wasn't hyperbole.
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sndrake
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Godric,

this was discussed on at least one other thread. The cannibal has been convicted, but since the victim gave consent to being killed, I think he'll be serving only 5 years in prison. In the meantime, he has a book done and offers for film rights. I don't think Germany has "Son of Sam" laws, which prohibit felons from making profits off their crimes, so the cannibal might come out of this with a ton of money after a fairly short period of imprisonment. Short, considering the crime.

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Godric
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[Eek!]

Now that might just be the most disturbing part of it all.

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Olivet
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Holy cow. O_O
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beverly
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Surely this is some sort of sick joke and I just don't get it.

Dude, if this isn't sexual perversion, I don't know what is. What the heck was going through their brains? I probably don't want to know.

Takes S&M to the extreme! (Did they use any anesthetic?)

[ March 16, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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mackillian
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See, the thing is, no cows were hurt in the production of this incident. [Frown]
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Boothby171
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What do you think they mean, "After his mother died, he began to thaw out"?

Wasn't that Jeffrey Dahmer?

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HRE
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Folks, it was purely consensual on both sides. It was what the fellow wanted. Just leave it be.
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Chaeron
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I heard about this when the news broke. Back then, I thought that this guy was clearly insane and couldn't have consented to such an act. However, having learned more of the details of the case, and having time to think about it, I'm not so sure that what happened was such an evil act. Perverse and viscerally offensive it certainly was, and no doubt it caused pain for Juergen's family and friends; however, at the risk of making light of death, this was clearly something that an otherwise no doubt intelligent and by all accounts sane man wanted. Most of us don't get to choose the manner of our death, we typically aren't afforded that luxury. This man died fulfilling his deepest fantasies. While I certainly don't share them, I think his death is less tragic than most.

-----edit-----
Mack, you rock. [Hat]

[ March 16, 2004, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Chaeron ]

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Unmaker
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I think you are out of your freaking mind, Chaeron. I have no compassion for either of the sick bastards, and your implicit tolerance of such insanity is nearly as worrisome as the fact that crazy shit like this happens.
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Architraz Warden
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Am I going to have to dig out the link of the Canadian Pork processing plant, and what they think that suspect did?

Personally, that gets to me more than this story does (but not enough to keep me from laughing at either of them).

Feyd Baron, DoC

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mr_porteiro_head
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I don't think I could have come up with something this satanic using my imagination. Was it consentual? Sure. Evil? I think so.
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Suneun
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Unmaker: But Chaeron has a point. People should have the inherent right to their own life when they are of sound mind. The victim seems, to all appearances, to have been as sane as you or me. His fetish does not make him insane.
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Slash the Berzerker
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If the desire to be castrated, then eat your own severed penis, then be stabbed to death and eaten is not insane, then there is no meaningful definition of that word.
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A Rat Named Dog
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I agree with Slash, though I will never forgive him for exposing me to plushies.
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Slash the Berzerker
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Did you finally find people who would understand you, Geoff? [Smile]
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A Rat Named Dog
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As much as I love my beanbag tiger, I think there's a consent issue here ...
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Chaeron
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What is a meaningful definition of insane, Slash? Does it have something to do with reason? Who says desires, sexual or otherwise, need be rational? What's necessarily irrational or insane about having desires stronger than the desire for self-preservation? After all, that's a less than sane desire, in that it cannot be fully satisfied. I am afraid of death, yet I have no hope of avoiding it. The man who ended up in freezerbags had his desires satisfied. Should I call him insane if he happily chooses to end his life in this way, and I chose to cling to mine terrified and desperate? I think you are confusing bizzare and distasteful desires for insanity.
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Slash the Berzerker
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Chaeron, I think you are confusing word wanking about desires and fetishes and having an open mind with the cold hard insane reality of having someone cut off your penis so that you can eat it.

And I totally stand by my statement that if that is not insane, then there is no meaningful definition of insane, and we should all just get rid of that word.

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Lalo
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quote:
3) What is a 'fursuit'?

This is a full-body costume that makes the wearer look like a favorite
animal, or an animal character. Costumes like this are commonly seen
being worn by staff members at amusement parks dressing up as popular
cartoon characters. They're also seen at sporting events where the
team has a mascot in a costume. Since a person in a fursuit looks
(and feels) a lot like a 'living plushie', such costumes are
understandably popular with some plushophiles. Several of us here
have made or bought our own animal costumes.

-from a website you need to be eighteen or over to view, so I'm not linking it.

Goofy! NOOOOOO!!!!!
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Chaeron
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Well, I know that I have no desire to have my penis cut off, and I'm sure you don't either. But what about someone who does? There are plenty of people who have emasculation fantasies or desires. Are these people necessarily insane, or do they just have a desire we find entirely alien and repulsive? If one is mentally competent enough to understand the consequences of satisfying these desires, he or she should be permitted to excersise their right to control over their own body and life, up to and including the right to be mangled, disfigured and ulimately killed if they so wish. Besides, in this case it's not like he really has a chance to regret it later.

That aside, you really didn't answer any of my questions, you just reasserted your previous position.

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Slash the Berzerker
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Yeah, because I honestly think trying to apply those questions to this situation is silly. But a short answer is, Yes, any fetish taken to the point of self extermination is mental illness. People who gamble until they lose all their money and their house and their families are considered mentally ill. People who drink until they lose everything are considered mentally ill. In fact, most any compulsion to repeatedly commit a self destructive act is generally considered mental illness, to one degree or another.

The compulsion to devour your own body and die in the process can't be anything but mental illness. The fact that he didn't hurt anyone else in the process is not a valid basis on which to determine the sanity of his acts.

There are girls who repeatedly cut themselves. They don't hurt anyone else. But when they are depressed, they cut themselves with knives. This is considered a mental illness, and is treated as such when diagnosed. Do you think they are merely expressing an uncommon, but legitimate lifestyle choice? Should they be allowed to disfigure themselves in this way?

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Richard Berg
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Oh, I'll agree that it's a mental illness. But mental illnesses aren't illegal.

Edit: neither is stupidity

[ March 17, 2004, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]

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Godric
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Chaeron:

quote:
Well, I know that I have no desire to have my penis cut off, and I'm sure you don't either. But what about someone who does? There are plenty of people who have emasculation fantasies or desires. Are these people necessarily insane, or do they just have a desire we find entirely alien and repulsive?
You can't be serious. I mean -- I have no response to that. I tried writing a few. I couldn't get past the part explaining why the desire to have someone kill you and participate in eating yourself is wrong. If that isn't self-evident, I might as well go fulfill my favorite fantasy death and jump out of an airplane without a parachute -- ASAP.
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Lalo
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To play devil's advocate, are all self-destructive behaviors significant of mental illness? Drinking alcohol, even when not carried to extremes, can lead to significant liver problems. Gambling, even when not carried to extremes, can and does lead to significant loss of money. Are those mental illnesses?

Cutting off your penis and eating it is rather extreme cannibalism, I like to think. What if I just cut strips out of my thighs? Or sampled flesh from my torso? That is, if I ate small portions of myself, the loss of which wouldn't lead to significant damage? Am I mentally ill?

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Belle
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First of all, I'm very thankful I read Geoff's response and the quote before googling plushies, because I think I have an idea what it's all about and I really don't want to know more.

Second of all, folks we TREAT people who are suicidal. You know, we put them in hospitals and we medicate them and such so yes, suicidal fantasies, no matter how bizarre, are indeed considered a mental illness. I would say that sexual fetishes or perversions, if you will, cross the line into mental illness whenever they involve the death or severe harm to yourself or another person.

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zgator
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Anybody else think of King's Survivor Type?
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Belle
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zgator - yes. *shudder*
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Farmgirl
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That has to be, indeed, one of the sickest things I have ever read in my life.

Gives me the willies like "A Thousand Deaths" did in Maps in a Mirror -- yet you know, worse, that the article means it really happened. And that is just so hard to fathom.

Farmgirl

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mr_porteiro_head
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Lalo -- yes.
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Danzig
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I have to go with Chaeron and Suneun on this one. The guy consented, and died happy. Eating human flesh might be disgusting, but I know I would if my plane crashed in the Andes. These guys were both very sick disgusting perverts, but no one was harmed in any measurable way other than the dead guy.
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Slash the Berzerker
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Assisting in a suicide is illegal. Killing someone, even with their consent, is still considered murder in most countries of the world, including our own.

Cutting yourself when you get depressed is a mental illness. Cutting someone else, even if they want you to, is assault.

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Olivet
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I chew on my cuticles sometimes. [Big Grin]

When you say. "plushie" are you meaning... people who, like, hump stuffed animals? [Confused]

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Telperion the Silver
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HELLO! What the f.... ??
Scary! [Cry]

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zgator
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Wow Olivet! I thought the MILF think made you seem naive. Don't you ever watch CSI?
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Danzig
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Just because something is illegal does not mean it should be. I happen to agree that this was a murder, but I do not believe it is a type of murder that the state should prosecute. This guy was capable of killing himself without help, and I see no added detrimental effect on society by letting someone help him do so.
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Corwin
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We definitely need a vomit graemlin in here... And we also need to treat some of the people who posted in this thread before they hurt themselves...

[Grumble] Gray world... [Grumble] I like the chessboard better...

Edit: Danzig, we live in a society, we're not just some individuals that happen to live in the same area. Reading the article made me sick, and seeing comments like yours and some others just added to the feeling. So it at least affected me, if no one else.

[ March 17, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]

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Olivet
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I don't have cable! And I DID once ask the forum at large what a Circle Jerk was [Blushing]

But,is that what it means?

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T. Analog Kid
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I have to say this thread is one of the most entertaining things I've read since Hitchhiker's...

some favorites:
quote:
See, the thing is, no cows were hurt in the production of this incident

this was clearly something that an otherwise no doubt intelligent and by all accounts sane man wanted

The victim seems, to all appearances, to have been as sane as you or me

no one was harmed in any measurable way other than the dead guy

and Slash gets my award for the greatest two sentences in the English language:

quote:
Chaeron, I think you are confusing word wanking about desires and fetishes and having an open mind with the cold hard insane reality of having someone cut off your penis so that you can eat it.
and the all-time great

quote:
If the desire to be castrated, then eat your own severed penis, then be stabbed to death and eaten is not insane, then there is no meaningful definition of that word.
It just doesn't get any better than this.
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Danzig
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I suppose I could have worded that a little better. [Smile]

Corwin - I am a radical libertarian. I support the freedom to do lots of stuff I heartily disagree with. Also, I do not see being made "sick" as a measurable harm. Lots of things I have seen make me sick, but that is not a reason to ban them. (I can give examples if anyone wants, but I worry that any I give will result in someone protesting the comparison.)

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Gilipollas Apendejado
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I demand a law right this instant prohibiting aided auto-castration and penis-ingestion!
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jeniwren
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What frightens me (about the title of this thread) is that Godric might find something else MORE disturbing. [Smile]
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Belle
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Well, I'm naive too, but I think I figured it out from the context.

I don't watch much CSI anymore, because Thursday night is dance night.

Danzig, I don't even think many libertarians would back you up on this - you honestly think it should be legal for a guy to string someone up and gut him? Cannibalize him while he's still alive?

Your point, if I've got it correct, is that the guy consented to this, right? On what planet do you think that any sane reasonable person would consent to this? Like I said, if your fantasies require irreprable harm to yourself and others, you've crossed the line from a little bit kinky to criminal.

I don't want to live in a society where this kind of behavior is legal. Where Jeffrey Dahmer can kill and eat people and then say "Oh, but it was consensual, it was all part of the person's sexual fantasies."

No thank you.

In the few places where assisted suicide is legal, it must be done under the care of a physician. Just because in some places it's legal to help end someone's life (and I don't agree with that) doesn't mean it's okay to carve people up and eat them and then hang them from meat hooks and cut them into nice flank steaks.

I can't figure out if you're really serious with your position or are just arguing for the sake of argument. I hope that once you consider it some more, you'll see that society in general has a vested interest in outlawing these types of behaviors.

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