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BtL in some fundamentalist Christian circles "courtship" and "arranged marriages" are being ressurected.
I listened to seminars on the topic. And it seemed to put a lot more pressure on a budding relationship than necessary.
I mean you have to decide before you ever "date" that you are willing to speak to her father and say that you are considering his daugher as a prospective mate.
posted
I once heard a wise person say that you are not ready to have a mature relationship until you have broken someone's heart and had your heart broken.
Now, obviously there are plenty of people who have not experienced these things. There are plenty of people who marry the first person they ever have a romantic experience with. But I do think that going through those things helps prepare you to have a stronger, more mature relationship. How many people divorce their first spouse, but then have a really wonderful second marriage? (Note: I am NOT advocating divorce).
I agree with kat. Dating and interacting with the opposite sex is very important in helping you figure out how to have a strong relationship. The key is in having "rules" that you follow while dating to avoid the temptations naturally faced. Learning how to be strong and resist temptation are important skills. Just my opinion.
Edit: Our opinions usually come from our experience. In my experience, the relationships that both Porter and I had before meeting each other really helped prepare us for the relationship we share together today.
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You can find out who are good guys and bad guys in group settings, too.
I distinctly said I don't keep my kids in a bubble, kat. They are allowed to do a lot of things socially with people their age. What they are not allowed to do is get into a car and leave with someone of the opposite sex and spend the evening alone and unsupervised with them. And I don't think that hurts their development at all.
I have spoken with parents and their kids who had these same rules. One of the kids I talked to is now 23 and dating for the first time. She is extraordinarily grateful to her parents for teaching her that waiting to date was the wisest course. Her siblings now range in age from 9 to 18, none of them are dating yet, and I asked the 16 year old boy and 18 year old girl how they felt about it and they said it was great. They had lots of friends, they did lots of fun things, and they thought they were much happier than their friends who had already been dating, gone through all kinds of problems, and certainly they were better off than the ones who were teenage mothers or fathers.
They didn't resent their parents, they didn't feel like they were missing anything, and they were confident that when the time came they would be ready for dating.
That's one family, out of about five I know well, that all follow the same rules and all the kids are fine with it. You don't feel deprived if you grow up knowing that's the way things are and your family just plain does things this way.
The 23 year old, Alisa, and I talked a lot about it one weekend, and these are the kinds of things she said "I knew my parents loved me and cared about me. A lot of friends of mine had parents that didn't even know where they were, or who they were with. I knew my parents cared enough to try and keep me safe, and what did I miss? Being pressured to have sex? Declaring my undying love for someone and getting my heart broken two weeks later? At 16 you're not ready for that kind of emotional commitment. While some girls were crying over who dumped them this week or worrying about who was going to ask them out that Friday night I was making plans as to what I was going to do, without any worries and nothing on my mind but having fun."
Wes and I spent a lot of time discussing this with our friends, with people with older kids who've been through the teenage years we have yet to experience, with the kids themselves, both ones like Alisa who are grown and the ones that are in high school now, and hours talking with our oldest daughter. All of us think this philosophy is the best course.
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Belle, AJ and her friend had a similar growing up situation as the 23-year-old you described, and they didn't think it helped them at all. *shrug*
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I am completely against arranged marriages, unless it's a marriage arranged between my Emily and Olivet's Robert. I mean, Olivet and I know what's best for them.
Truthfully, I don't agree with taking it that far. Once they're grown, they need to be able to make their own decisions. My job is to raise them to that point, safely. And to prepare them as best as I can for that point in life when they walk out the door and know they are on their own.
I just don't agree that part of that preparation should include one-on-one dating. I think it's something best tackled when one is already emotionally and physically mature, and not caught up in the turmoil that comes with being a teenager. There's so much else to focus on when you're in high school than who you're dating! So many other ways to have fun, and so many other ways to get to know people of the opposite sex.
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Belle you are talking with your kids about this. That is healthy. A lot of not-talking went on in my family. I think that makes a large difference in emotional readiness too.
Please Belle and Farmgirl, don't take my experiences as reflections on your parenting. They aren't whatsoever. We hear the cons about lack of parental involvement all the time.
I have just experienced the cons in the other direction, with parents micromanging and living vicariously through their children's lives. As such I have a much different perspective. In airing it I find that there are other people like Suneun and Jenny Gardner who have had similar experiences. I guess I would hope that it would be a cautionary tale saying that the middle course on either side of the two extremes is probably the best way to achieve emotionally healthy children.
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"It's no problem to date five guys in a week, but you're kissing five guys in a week, there IS a problem."
I agree with kat, but would use a different verb in place of "kissing," one that actually implies committment.
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I don't think we are talking about the same thing in terms of one-on-one dating. I mean spending time alone with him and in groups, but I'm not talking about being pinned for your whole junior year.
Emotional maturity doesn't just happen with age. And I really think the first crush craziness happens no matter how old you are when you have your first crush. Isn't it better to do it when you have a loving, emotionally-secure place to return to after?
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kat, I think we are talking about vastly different approaches. AJ says she got the impression that "no one is good enough for you" that's a completely different approach than ours. We're not focusing on "all boys are sex-starved and only want one thing and you are too precious to get involved with them."
And, dating doesnt' have to mean sex or physicality, but it often DOES. And the consequences are so very high. Why put them in that situation, when so many of the positive aspects that can come from dating can also come from platonic friendship activites in groups?
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The fact that dating, even as teenagers, often DOES imply sex in many places completely drives me crazy. Because dating without that pressure is fun, fabulous, and very, very good in terms of experience. There's so much more freedom in it.
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In my own life I have actually "dated" exceedingly rarely. I think I had gone on a "date" a grand total of twice before Steve and one of those was negotiable.
Steve and I decided we were a couple before we ever went on an offical "date" for that matter. We knew each other quite well before. I'd spent many afternoons with him and a mutal friend Patrick, helping them clean up the student run Engineer's lounge, which routinely got trashed. Upon discovering our mutual attraction, the inital added dimension to the relationship, was merely catching a few moments cuddling on his couch together while surounded by stacks of our engineering homework that we would be working through. In fact I can't give you a time or place for a "first date" that we ever had. It is possible he can, but I sure don't remember it.
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In my high school, it was not socially acceptable to date around. If a girl dated around without commitment and without intimacy, she was considered to be a slut. But if she "went out" serially with boy after boy, having sex with each one, that was just normal.
It wasn't until I left for college that I was able to date casually. I loved it!
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"You don't feel deprived if you grow up knowing that's the way things are and your family just plain does things this way."
My mother raised my brother and me on carob, a chocolate substitute. We didn't know that it WASN'T chocolate until we were about eight years old, and someone tried OUR chocolate bars at lunch and spat them out.
We then got to try THEIR chocolate bars, and realized what we'd been missing the whole time -- and had never even had a clue, up to that point.
IMO, shielding your children from experience only works if you can somehow ensure that they'll never get those experiences anyway -- but if they DO, you've actually made the situation worse.
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I'd say so. Of course, it's hard to tell, because we certainly ate enough of it AFTER we were eight to defeat any possible benefit from the exercise.
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I'm sticking to my assertion that crushes and bad dates can happen at any age, and it's much, much better to have them happen when you can go home and tell Mom about it than to have them when you are older and the stakes are so much higher.
You think sex is expected at 16, can you imagine what it is in the world at 24?
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Tom, your analogy doesn't work. I'm not pretending there is no chocolate in the world.
Kat, you're making a big assumption that one can't go to their parents after getting their heart broken at 24. I know in your case it isn't possible, and I'm very sorry you lost your Mom so young.
I still go talk to my mother when I'm upset and need comforting, advice, or just a listening ear. If anything, I'm more likely to go talk to her now as an adult than I was at 16.
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.... I forgot to check back on this thread after posting on a couple of others. So sorry for my delay in replying, AJ
I do agree that once they are in college, dating is not off-limits. After all, usually by then they are 18 (although my daughter will be in college at age 16), and after that age there should be more cutting of the apron-strings.
However, I hope I have taught them enough now, at younger ages, that when they do begin to date, it will be with the understanding that dating does not have to mean one-on-one exclusivity, or making out in dark places. They will have more maturity and self-assurance about what they want.
I have known many many girls who gave up college after finding a serious relationship while in college. Although you would always HOPE one would find someone who would support you in your own goals, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes you have to make tough choices.
I do prefer the "courtship" idea of dating.
BtL -- I was not talking about "going out for coffee" as being a date -- and you can tell that by my original post. I was talking about exclusively pairing -- "going steady" like so many teens do now.
Shoot -- I "go out" for lunch and coffee all the time now with fellows -- co-workers, who are even married -- I don't consider that a date if it is just friendship and sharing of a meal.
I don't do this because I was raised super-strict either. I do this BECAUSE I made all the wrong, bad choices as a teen, because no one had these talks with me. I tell my children how my choices affected my life -- in order to hopefully help them learn from my mistakes.
I do NOT have any problem with my kids "hanging out" with their friends, or having an active social life. There are lots of ways they can spend time with lots of different people without narrowing it to one-on-one with one person.
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My stance has NOTHING to do with my mother dying. Please don't assign motives to me I do not claim.
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I wasn't assigning it as a motive. My point was to say that people can go talk to their parents about heart breaks even when they're 24.
But, I didn't want to just post that without acknowledging that it isn't possible for you. I did that out of respect for you, kat. I didn't want to cause you any pain.
Quit assigning negative motives to me. I was trying to be respectful and considerate.
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Belle I couldn't go to my still living mother and tell her I got my heart broken. It would be pointless. She couldn't offer anything constructive to do about it, because she has no practical relevant experiences in the matter. I know her romantic history in fairly decent detail and there is nothing in it that would have any relavance. I've heard her platitudes already. Her sympathy while genuine would only be of an "I told you so" variety.
I talk to my mother because she is my mother and I do love her and I try to ease her worry as much as possible. So I attempt to call her at semi random kind of weekly intervals. Do I enjoy talking to her? Not particularly. We struggle to find things in common to talk about (she is now realizing how little we ever had in common) and she finds it necessary to insert snarky comments frequently, that I have to bite my tounge and use every ounce of self control to keep from retorting to in a way I would regret.
AJ
It is odd I'm actually taking the advice all mothers give and applying it to my conversations with my own mother. The "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" principle. I wish she would do the same. I honestly don't know if she realizes how hurtful the things she says are at times. Maybe saying all the things I actually think would clear the air, but I have a feeling it would cause more harm than good, and destroy the little bit of fragile relationship we have.
posted
I know. I just don't like assumptions being made about me. My opinion that waiting until you are in your twenties before dating at all raises the stakes comes from my experience that dating in your twenties is a heck of a lot more fraught with expectations than in the teenage, but does not come from my mom.
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One of kat's objections to my philosophy was that it is easier to go to your mother with a broken heart when you are 16. I contended that's not a reason to condone dating at 16 - you can go to your mother when you're 24 as well.
If you don't have a good relationship with your Mom and can't go to her at any age, then it doesn't matter. I'm trying to counter the point kat brought up because I don't think her point is valid. I'm not trying to suggest you go talk to your mother.
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My point is that if you are going to go through a little drama around the first date no matter what, why wait until you are 24, when the expectations are so much higher and the stakes are raised? If you have your standards and emotional support as a teenager, why not do it then, when you can go bowling together without playing for keeps?
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If nothing else this thread is making value the phenomenal relationship I had all through high school. Yes, we had fights, no marriage never once crossed my mind and yes, I am beyond the shadow of a doubt a significantly better person for it. You learn things from your peers that you cannot learn from your family (often these things are about your family ) But, really, there is simply no way my mother could have made me see the things Sarah did, I wouldn't have listened.
And you know what, I'm really glad that Mom was there for that relationship. She saw *a lot* of Sarah and I and understood it better than any other relationship I'll ever had. I will say that it actually brought Mom and closer and that Mom was able to offer a lot of insight that she wouldn't have been able to offer otherwise.
I'm not advocating it for everyone. Your house, your rules. But I suddenly feel much luckier than I did before.
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I know it depends how deep the emotional damage is, but generally speaking doesn't emotional damage heal faster at 16 than at 24? I mean yes you don't want your children making major life mistakes. But dealing with angst on a small scale then can make a difference in the maturity level of how you deal with angst later too. Shouldn't it?
Theoretically you should be less vulnerable at 24 but if you haven't played for low stakes, what havoc is playing for high stakes going to wreak on you emotionally?
I've heard the "unstained" emotions for your spouse argument and I don't particularly buy it myself but if is that the argument you want to use I will respect it.
AJ *jinx* to kat... I was still typing when you posted!
posted
I'm trying to imagine going to my parents -- both of whom were working on ruining their second marriages by the time I started dating -- with relationship questions, and the mental images that creates are so horrible that I actually need to scrub my brain, now.
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Who says you must date someone exclusively to get emotional wounds and to be vulnerable?
I suppose the time my daughter came home devastated by the betrayal of a friend at school meant nothing? There is something called life that teens go through, and you don't have to date to experience it. My daughter knows all about hurt and abandonment and betrayal and loss and grief, thanks to my stepfather/her grandfather.
Does she need to date someone, get involved with them, and then have her heart ripped out in order to learn something more significant than what she already knows?
I don't think so. I hear what you are saying, AJ. But the circumstances are different - I am not your mother and my reasons are not hers. My choices for my kids stem from what I think is best for them and I've determined that from talking to other parents, other kids, discussing it with them and with my husband, and looking to God for guidance. I just see zero benefit in exclusive dating for anyone under the age of 18.
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Okay, then we are still using different vocabulary. You can most certainly date without dating exclusively.
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"Does she need to date someone, get involved with them, and then have her heart ripped out in order to learn something more significant than what she already knows?"
I would argue, having had my heart ripped out in a variety of different ways, that having your heart ripped out by a lover is in fact very different from having it ripped out by a family member, and a completely different experience.
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I probably shoulnd't have used exclusively, I don't just mean that you can't date only one person. I think telling someone "You can date, but you can't date just one guy, go play the field" is just as harmful.
But so there's no confusion, here's a list for you.
Our rules:
Our children CANNOT:
Go out with one person of the opposite sex in a car, just the two of them.
Go to a function at the home of another person unless we know the parents, and the parents will be home, and there are other kids present (i.e., they can't go to the home of someone of the opposite sex to study, unless there is study group meeting that involves at least a few other people)
Spend the night in the home of a friend, if that friend has siblings of the opposite sex (a general rule, each case is evaluated separately) or we don't know the parents.
Spend any time alone in their bedroom with a member of the opposite sex.
What our children CAN do:
Spend time with their friends in group activites, i.e., a group getting together to go to a football game.
participate in church youth activities if they're properly supervised and chaperoned
Invite a friend of the opposite sex over for dinner, to watch a movie, hang out in the basement and play pool, etc.
Go on special occasions to functions that are chaperoned, an example of this would be to a school prom where teachers chaperoned, but they would not be allowed to stay out all night or God forbid, get a hotel room (I was floored when I heard mothers talking about letting their kids get hotel rooms on prom nights )
What's wrong with going on dates with all different people if you're not macking on them? Playing the field is only slutty if you're promising exclusivity and your body to each of them.
Demanding that people date only one at a time - first date means commitment, can't date anyone else until you're either married or it's all over - seems very confining. The point of dating is to find who you're compatible with. Unless you specialize in short relationships (which brings its own problems), sticking to dating only one at time when you're still figuring who you are and what you want is, among other things, terribly inefficient.
quote:I agree with kat. Dating and interacting with the opposite sex is very important in helping you figure out how to have a strong relationship. The key is in having "rules" that you follow while dating to avoid the temptations naturally faced. Learning how to be strong and resist temptation are important skills. Just my opinion.
Sorry. I was thinking of this. I don't see "I agree with kat" very often, so I was tickled and remembered. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think it's possible that your children might miss out on something beautiful during their teenage years.
Dan, my first boyfriend, and I dated for nine months my sophomore year of high school. He taught me to really love myself, and not be ashamed of myself. He taught me how much I can care for another individual for the merits of that individual, and not just because of blood ties.
Mike, my boyfriend all through senior year of high school, was even more wonderful. We spent countless hours together reading, playing games, laughing and talking. His parents cared a lot for me, and his mother was a wonderful maternal figure during my senior year. His relationship with me, and his parents' relationship with me really helped me grow.
My friendships pale in comparison to the depth of growth, joy, and loss my relationships could invoke in me. I love my friends. But they did not teach me as much. The only other person who I didn't date that touched me that way was Gabe, and mainly through his death.
It will never be wrong that I chose to date in high school. I will never regret such an important part of my life.
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*whew* I thought I had said something terribly offensive or outrageous. I was pretty confused!
Is it really uncommon for people to agree with you? I haven't been around long enough to know. Though, I have seen you lock horns with others on several different occasions. I admire your courage in holding your ground amidst the onslaught regardless of whether or not I agree with you. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle, are rides home with members of the opposite sex ok?
I don't want to get into this, because while I'm in a fairly successful high school relationship myself, I'm becoming more and more anti hgh school relationships the more of my friends I see in them.
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A comment for each side of the issue: For Belle's side, I think it is cool for a teen to grow up feeling that they don't *have* to date to feel good about themselves. There are many teens who want to date and don't and feel like failures.
On the other hand, having these young "practice relationships" (I will call them, because I know that as a teenager I was incapable of having a mature relationship, YMMV) can do a lot for a teen learning that they can be loved romantically. It had a HUGE positive effect in my life.
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I wonder if CM's problem is not that they think he is interested in the girl. Maybe there is an issue of him not being interested enough. My mom got real tired of the guys I had unrequited crushes on who were my friends. I know I'm a little late to show up and actually try to talk about what the thread was originally about...
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blacwolve, depends on who it is offering the ride. If I know him, then sure. I mean, if my daughter is stuck at school and needs a ride home, and I for some reason can't go get her and she calls me at 3:00 and says "I'm stranded and Mike offered me a ride home" then that's cool, but I expect her and Mike to at my doorstep at 3:10, considering the school is 10 minutes away.
But, that's not just a male/female thing - I wouldn't want my children accepting rides from anyone they don't know.
We have a procedure in place in case the kids ever get stranded anywhere, they have all the numbers they need. I've also covered what to do if they come home and get off the bus and I'm not here. That happened once, when I was on my way home and got stuck behind some highway construction. Natalie followed the rules perfectly, came in, locked the door behind her (she has a key) called me on my cell phone, I told her to sit tight, I"d be there in five minutes. She was fine. If she had not been able to get me on the phone she was to go up the street to Ms. Joy's house. Ms. Joy's kids have the same instruction to come to my house if they get home and no-one's there.
There's no such thing as a totally inflexible rule, everything has to e evaluated based on the circumstances and people involved. I would rather my daugther accepta ride home from someone she knows that be stranded alone someplace. However, her first attempt should always be to contact me or her father, ideally we would go get her.
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The other thing that does happen, with astonishing regularity, is that high schoolers who were for all appearances model responsible human beings due to their upbringing or whatever, get to college, realize they have freedom and suddenly go nuts.
If you really want to protect your daughters, Belle and Farmgirl, never let her stay in a college dorm room (even if it is entirely same sex) for a single night (doesn't matter if it is a Christian college, I've had friends who've been to them and they are just as bad, sometimes worse.) On the other hand having had the experience I think that living in a college dorm for at least a semester is one of those glimpses of humanity, that everyone should experience at least once in their lives. It definitely teaches you how to get along with people drastically different from yourself.
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