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Incidentally, I'm not LDS and probably never will be, but I do like their ideas on frugality and thriftiness, down to the whole having a garden thing. Though we have to get the house fixed up to tolerableness before I'll have time to start a garden.
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One semester of debt is okay. I didn't take out loans until my senior year (due to a scholarship and a job that were enormously fun, no responsibility, and which prolonged my adolescence until about 23), and they'll be gone by the end of the summer. (yay!)
Long answer: a lot depends on what she wants to do. Annie has a lot going for her so I think that she can be competitive in a variety of fields should she choose to. The question is what she is most intrested in doing.
I'm not saying that low tuition and an attractive environment shouldn't be important considerations -- but especially when it comes to arts and letters master's degrees, the projected end result should be a serious factor. There's nothing worse than settling for a master's degree program that either isn't as challenging as it should be, doesn't have an emphasis that you are interested in, and/or doesn't get you the contacts/experience/credentials you need to gain entry into your chosen field or profession.
I settled for a graduate degree program because of cost and convenience. It was the right thing to do and worked out well for me. But I do regret not making more of an effort to challenge myself.
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quote:But if you can get an equivalent education without going into massive debt, that's better.
Of course. But that's the whole question here, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong -- I think BYU is great for some programs. Graphic design would be one of them -- BYU graphic design alumns are, in my experience, the equal of those from any other top-rakned program in the country. Accounting would be another. BYU also has a high rated doctorate of education program.
But I'm dubious about art history at the Y -- unless certain conditions apply [i.e. see my second post on page one].
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That's cool. I'm not against knowledge for its own sake, but I think every person who has had to support themselves at a crap job for peanuts an hour will get behind the idea that it's also important to plunk some money down on honing employable skills. It might even be a good idea to do both at the same time....
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Jon Boy if BYU profs have the connections and pull to get Annie a museum curator job, that is great. I'm just not positive they have the connections that the Chicago Art Institute has.
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If she wants to be a graphic designer, I'd say its about fifty-fifty graphic design skill and marketing skill, even for in house designers. Unless one works for a graphic design firm or a particularly large company, the only way to get a much better graphic design job is to switch employers, because there are no higher level graphic design positions. Which means a high need for marketing skill. The logic is pretty much self explanatory for freelance designers.
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I agree with Banna. If she really is shooting for a museum curator job, then I would guess that it would be worth her while to try and make it into a 'known' art school with profs and faculty with connections.
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How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory? Honestly, job prospects aren't even part of my decision - if I wanted to go that route, I'm suitably experienced at this point to get a graphic design job even without a degree.
And this leads to the other main influence of my decision - my lack of funds. The only reason BYU is being considered is because it's a church school and is very affordable - less even than the in-state tuition I'm paying now. I already have more debt than I want and I've been maxing out my federal student aid since my scholarship ran out.
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I guess something that may not be clear is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints get a discount similar to In state tuition break at a state school.
In terms of school debt, the important thing is whether you have a good likelihood that the schooling you are going into debt for will yield a career where you can pay off that debt. Generally, I'd only recommend plunging into educational debt if you are in some kind of professional or certification program. Going into debt to become a school teacher will probably shortchange your future. (As an example, I know Annie hasn't mentioned this). And you only need a high school diploma to be a substitute teacher in Utah. Everyone short of an actual teaching certificate makes the same.
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Annie, I hear you. I stayed in school for ages because I was having so much fun and I liked the knowledge. I have a practical degree, but I also have three impractical minors and 60 extra semester hours.
If you're staying in school because you want to stay in school and you're happy there, do whatever (1) keeps your options open, and (2) costs the least, because debt follows you. The prophet says going into debt is fine for educational purposes, but after a while, it is funding a student lifestyle and not working towards the future.
Graduating does bite. Having said that... The future will come. Quite literally, don't mortgage it. The more debt you aquire now, the fewer options you have later.
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Annie I'm not talking about how much money you make. I'm talking about your future in whatever you do. Unless you want a PhD and to stay in academia all your life, of you want to follow your passion you need to be sure you are at a place that can accomodate your passion and help it grow. And that can provide connections post- schooling if you don't want to stay totally in academia that can help you keep persuing that passion.
And to do a worst case scenario, what if you married Hobbes(or anyone else) who was making enough money so you could follow your dreams without worrying about paying for a roof over your head, but he suddenly died and you had a brood of children to feed? (Even if he has life insurance because that normally goes to pay off the worst of the debts like a home loan etc.) Teaching French would look a lot better than flipping burgers or working at walmart. Yes I know you would get support from your family and church as well but, I'm betting you would be kicking yourself for not finishing the french degree...
quote: And you only need a high school diploma to be a substitute teacher in Utah. Everyone short of an actual teaching certificate makes the
Pooka I agree with most of what else you said, but this makes the assumption that Annie will be living in Utah for the rest of her life. And to pursue the other dreams she is talking about travel elsewhere is likely in the picture at some point. I assure you that public schools in other states require a Bachelor's of something in order for you to substitute teach.
I still think you can get tuition waivers for out of state tuition in most master's degree programs as part of a financial aid package. Going for a graduate degree resets some of your financial aid formulas. But they don't get reset until you get the B.A.
quote:How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory?
Actually, I've found that in fields where most people are not motivated by money but for love of the job, competition can be even more stiff, and a good educational resume even more important, than in more financial jobs.
Even more, educational credentials matter for longer in your career in such settings than in other fields, where within 5 years or so your experience will matter more.
I'm not trying to sound preachy, but this is something that is not evident until it's too late sometimes.
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I don't know if I'd want to go into a field where connections were the only thing that mattered.
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Go for it, and drag Hobbes along. How is the Civil Engineering school at the Y?
Debt for education and a house is good. All other debt is bad. Education always pays off. I agree that you want something you can earn a good living with, though. For your own sake as well as your kids. I think Mom needs to be capable of being fully independent in all important ways and being able to earn a good living is a pretty important way. (Just as Dad should be able to cook and do child care and keep a decent house. Specialization is for insects. )
It's not even that you might need it (which you may) but that it enhances who you are. I'm convinced it makes you a better wife and mother both, if you are also a kickass accountant or attorney or french teacher or museum curator or whatever. Education is great just for the sake of knowing, of course, but putting it to use is even better because you learn things in that way that you can't learn any other way.
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Dagonee, does that mean you don't think she should finish the French degree?
Clearly there are two different issues.
1) finishing the French degree or abandoning it (clearly I've come down on the side of finishing) 2) grad school (and which grad school (which I am for, but after she finishes the french degree)
The French degree might also make you stand out slightly more as far as resumes and porfolios go.
But Annie, it is your life, do what you think in your heart is best. I'm arguing a point. It isn't personal for me, other than the fact I'm soo glad I finished my first degree since the others didn't materialize like I thought they were going to.
quote:How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory?
Then that's fine. Go for it.
But do you really need grad school for this pursuit? While there was some value, of course, in having assigned readings and deadlines for writing projects, I'm finding that my intellectual pursuits are more rich and of personal interest now that I'm done with school. Granted, I don't have as much time to pursue them, but at least I'm writing and reading what I want to and engaging in conversation with the people who I want to.
Grad school wasn't a waste for me. For one thing, it helped me figure out what I wanted to do and put me on my current career path. For another, a couple of courses really did influence my thinking about literature, culture, etc. But a lot of it was also experiencing stuff that I could have at a faster pace and in a more direct way if I had been making money and using part of my free time and part of the resources I used on school to indulge my intellectual pursuits.
Again: what do you want to do with your contemporary art theory? What works do you want to create; what communities do you want to become involved in? It's a very important question. You don't have to know the answers now. Grad school may help you figure that out [although it's easy to just coast along and not figure it out -- you go to class, you do your assignment, you get validation from your grades and your classroom discussions, but at the end the question is always -- to what end?]. But it's good to have some idea, to have some eventual goal beyond just acquiring knowledge. At least that's my earned-the-hard-way opinion.
What I'm saying is that grad school can be quite beguiling -- esp. in the humanities. But if you see it as a deferrement of reality or an end unto itself, it's bound to dissapoint, I think.
EDIT: I see others have said much the same thing. Sorry for piling it on.
AND: Great link, JB. My favorite title that came up after a few clicks -- "Baudrillardist hyperreality in the works of Madonna." That's hilarious. Oh, yeah, and let me plug yet again my own take on shoddy postmodernism: Another Academic Journal Falls for Postmodern Hoax.
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I could enumerate how badly educational debt can be abused from my own sad history but I don't want to make anyone depressed.
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Banna -- most states I know of only require either junior or senior standing (in credit hours) for substitute teaching.
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quote:But if you see it as a deferrement of reality or an end unto itself, it's bound to dissapoint, I think.
Actually, I think it can be highly effective and enjoyable as a deferrment of reality. The only price is to stay in that world...
My best friend is still in that, and he's seen his options slip away. He's the smartest person I've ever met, and loves learning from head to toe, and has some other things in life, but...there's a time and place for everything. The reality he's deferred is no longer waiting for him. After a while, the preparation for a life becomese simply life.
Not that I think Annie is remotely close to doing this. My friend takes EVERYTHING to extremes in all cases. A blast to be around, but under no circumstances a role model or a representative of anything other than himself.
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quote:Dagonee, does that mean you don't think she should finish the French degree?
No - I absolutely think she should finish the French degree, especially if she's only one credit away. The M.A. program at UVa requires German and one Romance language - I assume other programs are similar. Plus, it's a very international field, so languages are good in general. I know one class won't make you more fluent, but again, credentials matter.
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Really? I had a minor in math along with my engineering degree and still wasn't viewed as qualified enough to substitute teach high school calculus in the Chicago area.
Plus there isn't just substitute teaching to consider. Actually teaching French in a school system while not high paying would give you something to live on and the summers off to pursue your art and other passions.
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AK, I know that BYU has a pretty good ME department but I haven't heard anything (positive or negative) about CE. I'd rather not move to Utah myself for various reasons (one of which being it would be one more reason for my family to not support any of my choices) but if it came down to it, I'm willing to go any where for Annie, and a place as benign as Utah doesn't begin to challenge that comittment.
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Well, apart from Hobbes being an absolute sweetie (which we've established a long time ago), here are the thoughts I've had on the subject today.
As disillusioned as I am about my art options, I had a fabulous talk today with my French professor that really encouraged me. (You get to do things like this when you're the only student who shows up for class)
I think I've decided to finish my French bachelor's and art history minor and apply to grad schools. I'm much more encouraged by my options since I've thought it over, and I think finishing french is what I owe myself, even if I'm sick of the art scene here. My professor reassured my worries about my writing skills, and I feel confident enough that I can get into grad school in art history even without the bachelor's degree in it. I think I'm still considering the Y because of my newfound fascination with Wulf Barsch and the Mormon Art and Belief Movement and the conviction that I'm going to save the world from Matthew Barney.
Thanks everyone for your intelligent support, especially AJ. And thanks Jon Boy for the hilarious postmodern backup.
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btw Annie, who is matthew barney? I've never heard of him <grin>
Oh yes Kat, I just planted 24 pansies in our window boxes. There was a close call where I thought I'd lost them when one morning they looked fine and that evening they looked dead, but they perked up after some water and they seem to be doing ok now.
quote:I think I'm still considering the Y because of my newfound fascination with Wulf Barsch and the Mormon Art and Belief Movement and the conviction that I'm going to save the world from Matthew Barney.
Now this is a good reason to go to the Y, and one that I support whole-heartedly [you need my validation, right ?].
Go Annie! Melt those post-modern pretensions like so much vaseline left to be de-congealed by the hot summer sun of form, aesthetics, belief and history.
BTW: Are you familiar with the volume _Arts and Inspiration: Mormon Perspecitves_? [Ed. Stephen Sondrup, Provo, Utah: BYU Press, 1980].
Much of it is related to literature and music, but there are some interesting essays about visual art -- and other essays apply to art and aesthetics in general. Check it out. You should be able to get it through ILL rather easily. Oddly enough, my academic library actually has a copy of it.
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considering I don't know who he is (and haven't bothered to google yet) I'd probably laugh politely if it was clearly supposed to be funny in the context of a conversation and that's about it.
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Apparently he made a set of 5 post-modern films called Cremaster 1-5. I looked at the trailer for the first one. The images were beautifully presented, but I couldn't discern any actual plot. It has something to do with some human cycle involving the testes and was possibly also called something involving cremaster. I'm not sure. I watched it yesterday, and my memory has faded.
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Explaining a joke makes it not funny. Which is exactly why I'm going to explain it.
The joke isn't my use of imagery related to Matthew Barney's art career [in addition to the Cremaster series, he has made "sculptures" out of vaseline]. It's the follow-up post expecting people to think the joke would be something people would get and think funny.
In other words, the joke is on Barney and his elitist art.
EDIT: And laughing politely is, I think, the appropriate response.
posted
Oddly enough, Barney doesn't really consider himself a filmmaker, but a sculptor. The five-hour plotless films filled with bizarre random imagery are nothing more than an elaborate stage for his large-scale vaseline sculptures. At a recent exhibition, he cast a giant vaseline and wax pig, but the mixing was done wrong and the sculpture collapsed. He displayed it anyway, celebrating the chaos that helped him create his sculpture.
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posted
For the record I have no problem with the use of vaseline as a medium for art. And while it's not always to my taste, I think there's room for bizarre imagery in art.
It's the breathy hype and writing and attempts at finding deep meaning and genius in Barney's work and the self-congratulatory tones that people who are aware of it use in talking/writing about it that I find hilarious and a little sad.
On one level his work is nothing more than hipster semiotics -- the signifiers don't matter except as they point to a signified "coolness." The other level is so intensely private to his mind that I'm not sure it matters much (or should matter much) to an audience.
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Personal theory of art, culled from years of classes, museum attendance, experimentation, and aesthetics. AND... I'm sorry - the reason I refuse to do theory.
If it cannot be stand without the little museum plaque, it's not art. In other words, if the artist fears to have his name and possibly a title alone attached to it, it's not art. All else counts.
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Are you looking for a degree, or wanting to study an interest?
If its the degree, I can't help you with any advice.
However, if it is an education on a subject -- you really don't need school. The steps to a good education, with minimal cost, is to live near a College or host of libraries. Visit live and Internet book sellers and join Internet discussion groups. Look on the various Art School web sights and ask students for the textbooks and reading material used. In other words, read and read some more and keep reading till you don't want to no more.
The more practical and hands-on your interests, the more likely college classes with good professors are necessary. However, the more theoretical and bookish the subject (and Art History sounds like this), the more independant your learning can be. You are most likely to be doing nothing other than reading anyway. The major drawback to this might be feedback, but that is why there are Journals and Magazines. With those you may even have a chance to get paid for your work.
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Honestly, job prospects aren't even part of my decision - if I wanted to go that route, I'm suitably experienced at this point to get a graphic design job even without a degree.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
