posted
And for the record, I think people are for the most part, not very nice to you around here -- and maybe that breeds more and more contempt all the way around.
And as long as we're keeping record, I've found you're a peach in real life, too.
Pat
gotta go study now.....
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quote: I don't know about you, but my church IS my family
I agree, Belle. While I love my family dearly and call them every chance I get, I am five hours away from my nearest blood relative. It's tough being so far away from home, but I've found a surrogate family with the people in my ward. I mean, we call each other "brother" and "sister" for crying out loud!
*edit* However, in the case of what you're talking about, I tend to feel that descendants of long-dead relatives are in a better position to make decisions than living people of the same faith because, well, they're dead. And if you're going back far enough, so is everyone they ever went to church with. Descendants of thier church-family, I think, have less precedence over thier blood-family.
*edit again* Probably a bad example: I love the Narnia series. I identify with them. While not of the exact same religion as Mr. Lewis, I recognize that he wrote them as allegories, and delight in their Christian overtones. I and other CS Lewis fans may disagree with the Lewis Estate's choices concerning the rights of the books as far as movies/scripts go, but since I myself am not a decendant of CS Lewis, I recognize that there really isn't anything I can do about it, except perhaps rally the fans together to try and persuade them to take different action. In effect, isn't that what the Jewish contigency in this case is doing?
quote:I think people are for the most part, not very nice to you around here -- and maybe that breeds more and more contempt all the way around.
*softly* Did you know that includes you?
I actually agree. I can count on a small number of fingers and toes those that are. I've put forth my theories before of why, but heck, I don't know. I'd like to see it change, but to do that, I'd think I'd have to make myself a lot more vulnerable than I already am, and Belle is one of the primary people responsible for my realization that I need to protect myself anyway.
But you don't get to claim a trait if you're selective of when you apply, and it's no big deal at all to be loving of people who stroke your ego contantly. For the record, if you claim to be wonderful and Christian and kind and then are low-class insulting and proudly petty to people, it's not consistent. It means I'll greet your statements with skeptisism because you've lied before.
posted
Actually, IMHO, it's much more acceptable to say "I'm really surprised that you feel that way" than it is to say "Well you can just shove your surprise."
Just an obeservation from someone who actually has to repent of his rudeness, instead of beatifically claiming "grace" for all the stupid, rude, crap I say. It'd be so much easier.
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quote:Saying "I know better than you do, and do not respect your decisions in life" does real harm, even if it's harm that someone else can choose to ignore.
What real harm is done to a dead person? I honestly do not understand this. Does anyone here believe that a Mormon baptism for the dead causes some sort of torture to dead souls, or that it rips them from their family or from their heaven?
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posted
*thinks* Maybe I get it because there's a chance it might do some good? I might actually listen and since I'm nicer in person, it means it's possible for that person to be here?
Ahh, but in person, 30 year old mothers don't tell someone to shove it when you give them a questioning look.
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posted
Considering it has been at least many Mormons' contention on the board that the afterlife is much like the current life, I would think it would be quite clear how a dead person can be hurt in a system such as that: in much the same way a live person is in the same situation.
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posted
Does anyone here believe that a Mormon baptism for the dead causes some sort of torture to dead souls, or that it rips them from their family or from their heaven?
Actually, someone in this very thread does believe that (sort of). At least the modified version that an LDS baptism has the potential to cause harmful consequences to a departed spirit.
And, I'm too lazy to look it up.
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posted
Fugu, you're using one piece of the Mormon belief about the afterlife to prove that another piece is offensive because it isn't true. That doesn't really work.
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quote: What real harm is done to a dead person? I honestly do not understand this. Does anyone here believe that a Mormon baptism for the dead causes some sort of torture to dead souls, or that it rips them from their family or from their heaven?
I would imagine not, Jon Boy. The issue of harm here has been quite extensively shown to be an issue of insult. I live my life. I do not convert to Mormonism. However, in all that time I do not think to expressively forbid my posthumous baptism to the faith. And after I die, someone comes to my grave and tells me that I'm now baptized.
You don't see the fallacy in that train of logic? That because i didn't think to forbid the practice, it's therefore something acceptable? If I came from a church that had a similar practice, but for different reasons (for instance, if my church believed that all dead persons should be formally excommunicated from their Living churches after death...) would you not be terribly offended? Sure, you (alive) would argue that it has no meaning because you don't believe in the practice, but the practice has meaning to *me* and i'm instilling a belief that you clearly would not hold and would most likely try to prevent were you able to do so.
I don't think there's a non-Mormon out there who would Ok this for themselves after death. "Sir, you will be dead in a few hours, would it be all right if afterwards we baptised you posthumously into the Mormon faith?" "Um. No. Thanks. I'm dying."
It's a pretty huge assumption you're making, that the dead person didn't have enough sense or moral awareness or mental maturity or Whatever during life to see the truth of your religion.
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posted
Should not offending someone be everyone's primary goal in life? Should we never claim to be right, because then others might be offended that we called them wrong?
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quote:And after I die, someone comes to my grave and tells me that I'm now baptized.
But this isn't how it works! It's been explained over and over, and yet people keep saying things like this.
quote:I don't think there's a non-Mormon out there who would Ok this for themselves after death.
My wife's own grandmother has said that we're free to do a proxy baptism for her after she's dead. Xavier said he's not bothered by the idea (I hope I'm not misinterpreting him here). I'm sure there are others.
[ April 14, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
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posted
It works rather well, actually. If you believe that people after death can be hurt just as can people after life, and you don't want to hurt them, then you've got a problem with those practices of yours that would hurt them, given their beliefs and values insofar as they are known.
Its completely consistent and coherent.
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posted
You know, I avoid threads about religion like the plague, but I gotta say, I'd much rather you say, "Hey, it's offensive but it's our belief and that's just how it's gonna be." as opposed to "No! It isn't offensive! You just don't understand. If only you were all Mormon!"
That's much more annoying.
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posted
People can take offense at anything, Fugu. I'll ask again: Is it more important not to offend than it is to do what you believe in your heart and mind to be right and true?
[ April 14, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
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quote:It works rather well, actually. If you believe that people after death can be hurt just as can people after life, and you don't want to hurt them, then you've got a problem with those practices of yours that would hurt them, given their beliefs and values insofar as they are known.
Its completely consistent and coherent[
You don't think if it all turns out to be true, they'd be more hurt by not having a choice?
"Hey! Check it out! Can I come to the party?" "Nope. Sorry, Mithrite. You made the choice once already." "But I'd never heard of this!" "Hey, at least you still have your pride."
posted
No disagreement there, you can substitute emotional harm if you want (though a similar qualifier about it being possible for just about anything still applies).
I was showing that if you are going to proceed with proxy baptism, it must be with the understanding that no matter how much care is taken, some people up there are going to be emotionally harmed by it (under the assumptions operating along with proxy baptisms, such as that the afterlife is much like the current life), and that acting as if it is otherwise is deluding yourself.
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Hey, it's offensive but it's our belief and that's just how it's gonna be, for the most part.
Except for the holocaust victims and people who threaten to haunt me if I do perform a proxy babtism (hey, there has been one).
I thought that was what we all were saying.
IMHO, the reason that we try to refrain from doing anything for the holocaust victims is that being that "in your face" about it would cause a general slowdown in all temple work. But that's just my opinion.
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posted
I totally understand that there are people who will be quite offended by it. I'm sure there are people sitting around in the afterlife spitting on the work that we've done for them. But I would rather extend the offer one last time, because I feel the alternative is infinitely worse.
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posted
Jon Boy: first, don't make assumptions about what dead people want because they're dead. (edit: okay, good, your latest post made it clear to me you did understand this.) They made decisions in life, and being dead does not void those decisions, or at least that is the Mormon belief as I understand it. If you're going to proceed, proceed without the assumption that upon dying people will come around to your viewpoint.
I don't think Mormons should stop the practice. I think the prospect of doing it to me offends me now, and that if Mormon assumptions of the afterlife are true, doing it to me would offend me at the time. I think Mormons should understand my position on it, and, understanding that position, take what course of action they wish to take, whether it be baptising me or not.
posted
"But this isn't how it works! It's been explained over and over, and yet people keep saying things like this."
Right. Because people who are not mormon do not accept the mormon theology for what happens.
People keep trying to say "But thats not what we're doing!" without trying to understand that it doesn't MATTER what mormon theology is, in terms of how the action is received. Yeah yeah, great, you THINK you are offering me only a knock on the door, but thats because of your theology. I, however, never converted to mormonism during the course of my life because I REJECT that theology. If I reject your theology, that would mean that I do not believe it is valid, and if I do not believe it is valid, then when you attempt to justify your actions with your theology, I reject your justification because it is based of a premise that I reject.
Edit. I'm an atheist. I do not believe in an afterlife. However, I MAY BE WRONG. If there is an afterlife, I do not know what happens in it, but I believe it is MORE likely that the dead are not capable of making choices, because I am ALSO Jewish, and jewish theology has it that we make our decisions during life. If that is true, then you COULD very well be forcing baptism on me.
This is the problem: You think you are right, others do not, but you do an action that, if you are wrong, could be irrevocably damaging. We've made our choices during life, and rejected your theology, but you continue to insist it is ok because your theology says you are only offering a choice, rejecting our own choice to make decisions about what is correct and what is not correct.
[ April 14, 2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Paul Goldner ]
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posted
I really don't know one way or the other if people are generally accepting or rejecting proxy baptisms done for them. There have been times when I've strongly felt that it was accepted, and there have been many, many times when I haven't felt anything one way or the other. I hope people accept it, because I think it's a good thing to accept, but I certainly don't assume that everyone will suddenly come around to our way of thinking on the other side.
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posted
Paul, I was merely saying that was Leonide said was clearly wrong: nobody goes to graves and says, "Guess what, Grampa? You're a baptized Mormon now"—and if anyone does, they are holding views that are clearly contrary to the whole basis of baptism for the dead. You can believe whatever you want about the potential effects of baptism for the dead, but at least get the facts right.
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posted
I understand that the practice offends you, PG.
You're welcome to say, "No, thank you," just as you might to Mormon missionaries at your door.
EDIT (PG edited before I finished posting): If I understand what you're saying, PG, after a person dies, they make no choices. Can anything done in life affect them? Can you give examples in Jewish law, commentary, or in story?
What is the difference between a belief (Only those who accept Christ as their personal savior get to Heaven) and a belief with a ritual?
[ April 14, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
"nobody goes to graves and says, 'Guess what, Grampa? You're a baptized Mormon now'"
But I suspect that they DO, or else people wouldn't've asked to baptise Elvis so many times. I think there's a fair bit of "we want X on our team" that goes around.
"What is the difference between a belief (Only those who accept Christ as their personal savior get to Heaven) and a belief with a ritual?"
Because the ritual, which occurs after death, is LITERALLY like standing up at the funeral and saying, "I believe Grandpa was wrong about the afterlife. Just in case, I'd like to announce that he now has the option to become a Jesuit, now that he knows better."
It's hard for us (LDS people) to grasp how the ability to choose remains so strongly in effect after death. It does, though, somehow (IMHO).
People might be just as likely to reject what I believe on the other side as they are now.
Perhaps every single baptism I do may end up being for naught, and the person may STILL be mad at me. MAN is that a major viewpoint change.
The point is that a few of them might accept it, and actually WANT a baptism. But I don't know who they are, so I gotta do 'em all. I take the chance of pissing a billion people off just so I can make a hundred people happy. Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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quote: but you continue to insist it is ok because your theology says you are only offering a choice, rejecting our own choice to make decisions about what is correct and what is not correct.
My way of understanding it is the main purpose is for those who didn't recieve the knowledge of it at all in this life, or not enough knowledge to be able to make a purposeful decision.
My understanding of LDS theology is that if you made an informed rejection in this life, then even if a proxy baptism were performed for your behalf, you wouldn't be presented the chance in the afterlife because you already DID make that decision.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Okay, so you're at least partly right, Tom: some people do have that attitude. That attitude is contrary to the spirit in which baptisms for the dead should be done.
quote:Because the ritual, which occurs after death, is LITERALLY like standing up at the funeral and saying, "I believe Grandpa was wrong about the afterlife. Just in case, I'd like to announce that he now has the option to become a Jesuit, now that he knows better."
Except that we don't proclaim to everyone that so-and-so's work has been done, and we don't add the "now that he knows better" bit.
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quote:Because the ritual, which occurs after death, is LITERALLY like standing up at the funeral and saying, "I believe Grandpa was wrong about the afterlife. Just in case, I'd like to announce that he now has the option to become a Jesuit, now that he knows better."
So you're fine with a belief that everyone is going to be convinced of a religious truth after death (for example: Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ), but has NO ritual?
[ April 14, 2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
People have stated such in the past, Jacare. There are people who are even offended if we offer private prayers for them. For ANY reason, whether it be salvation of soul, or to heal a scratched knee.
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posted
My way of understanding it is the main purpose is for those who didn't recieve the knowledge of it at all in this life, or not enough knowledge to be able to make a purposeful decision.
That was my understanding, too.
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quote:My understanding of LDS theology is that if you made an informed rejection in this life, then even if a proxy baptism were performed for your behalf, you wouldn't be presented the chance in the afterlife because you already DID make that decision.
*nods* I think this is what my brother was trying to say. I'm not sure if it is that those who have already had a choice won't get a chance to choose again, or if those who made a choice will be the same person after, and it's so much harder to change there, so they WON'T choose this, but I understood the proxy baptism to be for those who would have chosen it, had they the opportunity.
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posted
First, that being shown some Mormon assumption were true would not mean all Mormon assumptions were true. And second, yes, even were all true I probably would not want it. There are many values that the Mormon God holds that I do not if Mormons are right, and I would rather not hang out with him a lot.
Also, it seems to me it would be rather essential it would not be immediately obvious to everyone in the afterlife that every Mormon belief were right. If that were so, then as far as I understand Mormon beliefs everyone who did not accept them would go to the actual hell, while everyone who did would go to the highest heaven, and all the in between tiers would be rather wasted.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:And after I die, someone comes to my grave and tells me that I'm now baptized.
Well, no they don't, in fact. As a matter of procedure, it's not done at the grave, and it's not-to Mormons-a "you're baptized now, period," issue. It's more of a, "Here's a chance, you can choose to be baptized or not, God will be bound by either choice, this is just a procedure," sort of thing.
Now, I can understand people who say that offering a choice of baptism, posthumously, does some damage to their soul. That's their option of belief, but it's not what Mormons say-or it shouldn't be, of course I can't speak for all-when posthumous baptisms are performed.
quote:(for instance, if my church believed that all dead persons should be formally excommunicated from their Living churches after death...)
Nor is this really applicable, since posthumous baptism is not forced, according to Mormons, it is an option to accept it posthumously, that's all. Excommunication, however, when the person cannot accept or reject it (as Mormons believe dead people do), is different. Again, I accept that there are people who believe that even offering posthumous baptism does damage to their souls somehow, and I would not do so for someone in my family who felt that way, nor would I do such a thing for a member of my family who said, "Don't do this."
quote:It's a pretty huge assumption you're making, that the dead person didn't have enough sense or moral awareness or mental maturity or Whatever during life to see the truth of your religion.
Not at all. Firstly, many people posthumously baptized died before: a) the LDS Church was created, or b) before anyone arrived to spread the Gospel where they were.
-----
Since it's been brought up...I have to confess (since people are confessing similar things about LDS) I would be frightened to believe in a God who holds me accountable, not just for my own choices-or even Original Sin-but for stuff done to me after I'm dead. I have absolutely zero ability to stop such a thing from happening, beyond saying, "Don't do this," and God would hold me accountable, would punish or reward me, for something done after I'm dead?
Now people are entitled to that belief, certainly. And I will respect their wishes if they hold that belief. But I think it's unnerving.
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quote:Also, it seems to me it would be rather essential it would not be immediately obvious to everyone in the afterlife that every Mormon belief were right.
Agreed. If the truth were obvious on the other side, where we could still make a choice, then what are we all doing here, anyway?
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posted
Remember when Tom asked why anyone would reject baptism if they KNEW that the Mormon conception of the universe were true?
quote: yes, even were all true I probably would not want it. There are many values that the Mormon God holds that I do not if Mormons are right, and I would rather not hang out with him a lot.
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