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Get a clue. Yes you are And BTW Stan...I'm not acting like this becuase I want to... So far today, I've eaten 24 chocolate bars, and drank at least 10 cups of express... I'm not kidding, its not a joke... I feel horribly dizzy....
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Then do yourself a favor and turn off your computer, and don't be calling OTHER people illegible, for CRYING out loud.
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My dear PSI, I think its wearing off now.... My right kidney hurts... I can't turn off my compy... I'm addicted........
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quote: But I am a Republican, so I think her husband gave her a good advice.
This is the only reply mentioning Republicans before your post. It's from Stargate. Kasie's initial post did mention that the wife voted Republican because her husband did. But I don't think which party she voted for was the main thing. Her voting for anything because her husband told her to was the main thing. Did you just skip all the other posts before saying something? This thread isn't Republican vs. Democrat. It isn't about abortion. It's about feminism.
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Trip?? Who's that?? Me??? I need protein???? God don't talk to me about any kind of food intake or nutrient!! I'm about to puke...
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So then ignore what I've just said, I feel better now..*flushing heard in the distance* The bad stuff is out... Ok, so lets post!!!! ^.~ Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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We live in a society were women are paid less for the same type and standard of work then men are. Women are more likely to be victims of sexual and physical assault. In both America and Australia, female rape victims can still be told 'they were asking for it' because they wore a skirt/went to a bar etc. In Australia, we don't have paid maternity leave so many women are forced to work after having a child even if they don't want to - and yes, I consider this a feminist issue.
Moving away from the Western world and gender inequality becomes less subtle - lower education, literacy, bans on types of jobs women can take, regulation on women's clothing, sharia law, rape of women in warfare, sexual slavery (actually this happens in Australia and America as well), fgm etc etc.
I don't see how anyone can think that feminism is unneccessary or that everything is equal. There are different issues today then there were 100 years ago - but that doesn't mean those issues don't exist.
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Until the "average man on the street" in the developed world cares as much about stopping fgm as they do about stopping other human rights abuses and the average woman on the street can walk down that street without getting whistles and catcalls, we still need feminism.
It's not about putting up fences where there don't need to be any... it's about helping people see the fences that are already there. And it's going to take generations of strong women being loudly and visibly strong before we get a critical mass and attitudes change.
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I can see why you need want to pursue feminism for reasons of violence and chauvinism. I don't disagree with feminism, I just don't think women have less rights than men.
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I think there's two ways of looking at that Nick.
The first is that feminism isn't just about strict legal rights, but rather social attitudes as well. So while it may be equally illegal for either a man or a woman to be raped, the social reality is that women are raped primarily. Why? Perhaps because of social attitudes towards sex, women's attitudes and responses ('she wanted it really') and the boys club mentality that often proceeds gang rape. And these are attitudes that need to be changed. They are a fence in themselves.
Secondly - equality does *not* mean sameness. Women and men are different in some ways - childbearing being a primary example. So in these examples the fact that women have the same rights as men doesn't mean much. If neither men or women are allowed paid maternity/paternity leave then the situation is the same. But because of differences inherent in the situation, it may not be equalitable.
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Nick, if you can't use a right, do you really have it?
Or, how about this... there are guys I know who won't walk through a door if I'm holding it open. I'm not saying I want men to stop holding doors for me. If a man chooses to hold a door for me, I walk through it, and I say thank you. But if I'm walking with that same guy, and I get to the door first, I'm going to open it and hold it open for him to go through. It's common courtesy, and I'd do it regardless of the gender of the person I'm with. If you'll open a door for me but won't walk through a door I'm holding for you, how can you say you consider me equal? In some way, you consider me different, and different is never equal.
Note that I'm using the generic you. I don't know if you walk through doors women are holding. But I know that many, many men won't, so for this and other reasons I consider that the general climate in the United States is not one of gender equality.
Edit 'cause imogen posted while I was typing... Yes, there are going to be some differences based on biology. So if I stick hard to my statement above, men and women will never consider themselves totally equal. I just think we can get a lot closer than we are now, without being a bunch of grumps and without compromising our respective integrity.
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I think it's a matter of culture as well. Some people are raised on a steady diet of hatred, and sometimes, murderers, rapists, and other psychopaths are the result. I'm sorry this is so, but it is a reality.
quote: The first is that feminism isn't just about strict legal rights, but rather social attitudes as well.
I know that. As I explicitly said, I'm not against feminism. Especially because my sister would beat me up if she thought I was. Seriously though, I know a few things about how women are treated. From a legal standpoint, they are treated equal to men (except maybe the draft, but that's a different topic), but culturally, there are still chauvinists. Which is why I think you should not stop, but continue on to fight the bigotry and chauvinism against women.
Also, I realize it's useful for disease fund-raising. I'm all for the breast cancer walks. 1 in 6 get it? I don't like those odds. I know women definitely don't like those odds.
I'm not against feminism, I just don't think it's right to say that you're out there fighting for rights that men have and you don't.
I understand that it's not as safe for a woman to walk down a dark alley alone as it is for a man. It should be, but it's not. But that doesn't mean somebody is infringing your rights.
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I will walk through a door that a women holds open for me, but I make a point to beat her to it.
quote: Yes, there are going to be some differences based on biology. So if I stick hard to my statement above, men and women will never consider themselves totally equal.
I consider women to be totally equal to me and other men.
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Well I'm not going to accept that just because you said so. I guess I'll research it a bit myself. EDIT: I found too many links saying that either one had more funding. I can't tell which has more, or whether they're equal.
[ April 26, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
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quote: I consider women to be totally equal to me and other men.
And at the moment, I believe you are in the minority among men. But every generation will have more, and every man like you who teaches his children that woman and men are equal increases the number exponentially. Because if boys just hear it from women, they will never believe it... it takes strong roll models from both sexes to make a sea change. And as I said, I believe we will one day reach critical mass, and the old ways will fade away and be nothing more than history. But I would be very surprised if it happened in my lifetime. Not that that means I won't work towards it to the best of my ability. Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I don't necessarily notice that most men don't consider women their equal. Maybe that's just my peer group.
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It may have something to do with your age, as well. You mentioned in another thread that you are under 21... if your peer group is predominantly your age, they are probably among the most "enlightened" segment of the population in most social matters. Each generation is a little better than the one before. When I was in school, I didn't think there was much of a problem left. Sure, there were some jerks around, but most guys seemed pretty cool with considering women as equals. But when I graduated and got a job I was suddenly interacting with people from a range of generations, not to mention a range of educational backgrounds. And the problem was much, much more apparent.
I'm trying not to say "your opinion is invalid because you're young." I don't think that's true. But I do think that as you grow older your range of experiences will also grow (duh) and as the people you are exposed to expand you may see that there are more issues still out there than you see now.
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quote:In Australia, we don't have paid maternity leave so many women are forced to work after having a child even if they don't want to - and yes, I consider this a feminist issue.
Should we REALLY be paying maternity leave, rather than (as is currently the case) simply making it possible to take six months or so off, without pay? If you say yes, why? Would all women qualify, or would it basically be a form of welfare? Would men get paid paternity leave? If not, why?
quote:It's not about putting up fences where there don't need to be any... it's about helping people see the fences that are already there.
But there aren't many fences remaining there to see. All I have to do is look around to see that. Thus, it's really about trying to get others to see fences that don't really exist, but that feminists have become convinced exist.
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Eljay, fyi, the whole door thing has less to do with women and more to do with some weird guy standard. That is, I have held open doors for other guys and they wouldn't go through. There is also the fairly common experience of sitting at an intersection and the other guy won't go until you do.
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That there are few overt fences is quite correct. However, one merely needs to observe statistics to see that the fences in treatment exist all around. And most of it probably isn't even conscious.
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To be fair, it doesn't help when feminists cast fog. (The claim, e.g., that not offering paid leave is unfair certainly muddies the waters.)
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Unpaid leave is fine, for men AND women when a child comes along. Neither should be left out, both to be given the opportunity to spend time with their new child.
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I think that both men and women should be offered paid maternity/paternity leave. But because this is an issue that disproportionately affects women, I do consider it an issue appropriate to come under the gambit of feminism.
quote:To be fair, it doesn't help when feminists cast fog. (The claim, e.g., that not offering paid leave is unfair certainly muddies the waters.)
Actually, I don't think it does - muddy the waters that is. One of the biggest decisions any mother (or father) will have to make is whether to stay at home or keep working. For social reasons, it's mostly women who face the decision - but I'm not saying that's always the case. I'm well aware of wonderful stay at home Dads (like our own Papa Moose).
I don't think it's *unfair* that women aren't offered paid leave. But I think it would be beneficial to society, and to women as a sub-group which is disproportinately affected by this issue, if paid leave was available.
I'm not doing such a great job at explaining what I mean - I'll link a few articles and try again later.
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I think we may be having a misunderstanding as to what paid maternity leave actually means here. The USA doesn't have it mandated, either. At my company we have parental leave for both new moms or dads, including adoptive parents. The first 2 weeks are paid, and an additional 4 weeks unpaid are available. Anything after that has to be requested, is unpaid, and although I've never seen it happen, it is very clearly stated that your job might not be available when you want to come back, depending on the "needs of the business." Oh, and you have to pay for your own health insurance during that time. So it's a choice... I had two coworkers give birth recently. One saved up for a year beforehand so she could take the first six months off and stay home with her baby. Her husband also has a good job, and she's on his insurance, as is the new baby. The other is the primary wage earner for her family, and had a hard time taking the first six weeks off. I know she would have rather stayed home longer, too, but she's paying for some bad decisions... four years of her husband's back child support. Plus her job provides the insurance for her entire family, and they would have had to start paying for it if she'd stayed out any longer.
Anyway, it's a hard choice... I think it would be wonderful if every parent could have the first month off paid to stay home with their new child, and the option to take 6 months to a year unpaid without having to worry about having a job to come back to. But what is the company supposed to do during those 6 - 12 months? They need someone to do the work, and it's hard to hire temps, by the time you get them up to speed on a white collar job it would be almost time for the parent to come back. Big companies, like mine, can shift resources and deal with it, we've got a lot of redundancy going on. Smaller companies? Much harder.
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You people who keep claiming that these fences don't exist are blatantly ignoring the wage gap.
The higher the level of education, the worse it gets. I can expect equal wages if I make fries at Wendy's, lesser wages if I pursue my current degree, and greater only if I happen to start doing pornos.
You're going to tell me I'm on equal footing? Yeah, right.
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I am very skeptical of any absolute claims about a "wage gap". I think there are so many variables that any particular claim is highly unlikely to be a meaningful description of the relative pay of men and women.
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I've worked for places where it is a open secret that the management "overlooks" women for promotion because they consider them flight risks.
A lot of women still succeed in such an environment, but I just feel they had to work so much harder to prove themselves.
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quote:Xap, you need to open your eyes to see the fences.
No, Feminism will tell you there are fences even if you keep your eyes closed. You just need to open your eyes to see that there are no major fences, that the Emperor is not really wearing any clothes (or fences ) at all.
quote:You people who keep claiming that these fences don't exist are blatantly ignoring the wage gap.
The wage gap is a matter of women having certain characteristics, not discrimination. Women tend towards fields that pay less, they take more time out for pregnancies and parental matters, they often (and this is supported by research, at least based on what I've read) are far less aggressive about going after raises, and at the upper levels where mostly older women work they tend to be less educated and experienced due to discrimination long-since removed. You can't just point to a statistic and claim discrimination.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Ok, I feel better today, and I've got a way better attitude too. My stomach feels better. Anyway, these issues you guys are talking about are actually pretty serious. I don't see why women in Australia don't get a maternity leave. For crying out loud, don't those people need to be reminded where they came from??!!! I still pretty much hate it when some horny SOB harrasses me when I'm on the street saying stuff like "Hey Baby" , "Que Onda Chula", or sending me a kiss.... I find that offensive, and I just look the other way... Even though some men might not find that they are harrassing me, I FEEL HARRASED. Don't you girls feel the same??
P.S. "Que Onda Chula" is Spanish for "Whats up "hot girl",, I placed hot girl in quotations because "chula" is a slang word and even though it doesn't mean hot girl exactly, its the closest english transalation I could think of right now.
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How strange, I'm pretty certain I've seen studies of particular fields, such as academia, in which women are consistently paid less. More than 9 months (and less than that is taken) of not obtaining raises woudl result in.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thats wrong, most of the time, if a man feels challenged by a woman, he tries to put her down as much as he can, guess this is what is happening right now. Why is it that men always want to rule women with the thumb? Why this need to show you're superior to us?
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Seriously though, I know a few things about how women are treated. From a legal standpoint, they are treated equal to men (except maybe the draft, but that's a different topic), but culturally, there are still chauvinists. Which is why I think you should not stop, but continue on to fight the bigotry and chauvinism against women.![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
