quote:Kasie, I see something missing in the picture, where is the example and influence of men in your life? (father, brother, husband, uncles, grandfathers, etc.) They were useless, I guess, as feminists would consider them just "sperm donors", just something needed to procreate.
I'm not a smart man, but I figure she probably focused on the women in her life because this is a thread about feminism.
posted
It's so apropriate Kat I'm quoting it again.
quote: Did no one read Kasie's post? She whole-heartedly admires the women in her family who got all the education they could and then chose to stay at home and raise the next generation. She isn't looking down on those who did that - that's what the women in her family did, and I hear nothing but respect from her when she speaks of them.
If you hear scorn, it's coming from other sources or inside of you. It's not coming from Kasie.
PSI I think you are mistaking frustration for scorn there is a distinct difference. I don't think that frustration was directed at you, especially considering you aren't in the specific list mentioned by Kasie.
AJ
I am personally getting frustrated by the fact that being passionate on hatrack is becoming less and less socially acceptable regardless of the subject matter discussed. Anytime anyone expresses passion they get shot down unless it is Lalo who refuses to curb his passions.
posted
Sorry, AJ, it may have been passionate, but when is passion a good excuse to say hurtful things? "I'll even cry for you"...?
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posted
PSI if that is hurtful speech we've got major problems at fundamental definitions. This actually may explain why we sometimes keep talking to each other but neither of us can figure out what the other is saying.
I don't see that as being hurtful at all. She is expressing a personal sentiment. There is nothing wrong with that. She is not singling you out. She might be using a little bit of sarcastic hyberbole, but Mark Twain was far more cutting in most of his writing. If that is what you percive as "hurtful" speech, then most of what I write must be downright "hateful" speech to you.
This makes me because I don't know what to do about it or how to change my own communication and interpret yours to make it so that we are communicating on the same wavelength, since I like you and want to get along.
posted
Eh, maybe. I don't think it's scorn for the choice, though. More like scorn for thinking it's the only possible feminine choice.
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posted
I think it is mostly frustration. Expressing frustration can easily come out in a scornful fashion, but I really don't think it is scorn. I think if Kasie was actually expressing scorn she would have been far more cutting and contemptuous in wielding her words. I know she's a good enough writer to do so.
posted
[meta-rant]I don't tend to read posts that contain quotes that don't fit on one screen, FYI. I put in enough time reading this thread and I'm not afraid to go back and reread stuff I need refreshing on. But I won't have someone else pick for me which parts of this 9 page thread are *really* worth paying attention to.[/meta-rant]
Tres brings up an interesting point. I think this is the aforementioned trap. He seems to be saying that if a woman isn't strong she needs the protection of a man.
But as mentioned, men are sometimes raped as well. So it isn't physical strength of the victim at issue. It is the pathology of a rapist that will use the threat of deadly force to overpower someone. Or the relative that twists familial ties into overpowering someone. Or the person who uses rohypnol to knock someone out to overpower them.
Stargate, I don't think getting drunk is asking for rape any more than leaving your car unlocked is consenting for it to be stolen. Giving someone the keys is. I don't know what that would translate to.
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Pooka what size do you have your words set aton the screen? Everyone has their screens set differently, so how are you supposed to know what quotes will fit on one screen and what won't when you are posting?
quote:Tres brings up an interesting point. I think this is the aforementioned trap. He seems to be saying that if a woman isn't strong she needs the protection of a man.
No, I said that was one alternative view that was extremely contrary to feminism.
My view is that women need to take basic precautions - and that rape is and probably always will be a part of mankind, just like murder and theft always has been. You can't make it go away through protests, "awareness," or changing cultural values. Thus, we need to accept and understand the risk - and take the appropriate measures, like not getting drunk or incapacitated, not placing yourself in dangerous situations, and being aware of how to defend oneself.
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posted
Tres, I fail to see exactly what your point is as related to feminism. Or is that a PSA tangent? Which is fine, if puzzling.
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quote: Alt, what's really troubling about what you've written is that you seem to be getting your information about this "vaccine" that works on someone's "mechanism" from your brother's girlfriend. You're a girl near the end of your junior year in high school, 16 or 17 years old, and you lack even a fundamental grasp of what birth control is or how it's used. This indicates, to me, a really scary lack of education from your schools, teachers, and parents on what it means to be sexually active... and by all means, please do choose abstinence over any other possible course of action. However, women who HAVE been taught what sex is, what birth control is, what abortion is, and make an informed decision that premarital sex would be okay for them, shouldn't simply be dismissed as "whores".
To make this clear to you, my brother's girlfriend is my age. My brother uses protection. And you've just made me stray from my main topic which was abortion. I don't care what the diffrence between vaccine, shot, medicine, or anything else of a similar type. My mother HAS toaught me about premarital sex, she also told me to avoid it as much as possible, I do know what a responsability it is to be sexually active even though I'm not. And I DO NOT "lack a fundamental grasp as to how birth control is used* Why? pretty simple, I know another girl my age who happens to be a mother. She came out pregnant because SHE didn't know how to handle her sexual life, ok. Please don't try to assume that I'm stupid with out even knowing me, that way the only one here that looks stupid is YOU. Therefore, CUT IT OUT.
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posted
I dunno. If someone were speaking about Democrats, or atheists, or the Daughters of the American Revolution as quoted...it might be considered scornful to some extent.
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posted
Banna, I never said she was being hurtful or scornful to ME, and I never said she was singling me out.
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posted
Alt: if you don't want to be labelled, then don't label other people with as little or even less information at hand.
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posted
PSI, I genuinely don't understand, if it wasn't hurtful to you, then why were you upset about it? Kasie's made it clear that she isn't criticising stay at home moms. And there are people in this thread who have been displaying shocking ignorance. I think those are the people that she was shocked at. I was too.
quote:Tres, I fail to see exactly what your point is as related to feminism.
Well, Anne Kate suggested that we need feminism because rape is a problem, and I was pointing out that feminism is only one of different ways to battle rape - and that the uniquely feminist elements of that feminist approach are not very useful methods of battling it. My point was that you don't need to be a feminist to oppose rape.
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posted
Wait, why can I only be annoyed by things that are directed at me?
All I was saying was this: When she gets inflammatory, I begin to ignore her posts, and I think she's better than that.
I wouldn't waste my time saying it if I didn't think she had some good points that needed to be said. I just don't want her to get overlooked because she's acting up.
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posted
Alt, I want you to know that I don't think you're stupid. I never said you were. From the look of your work, it seems like you're pretty smart and talented, really.
I do, however, think that you're woefully UNEDUCATED regarding birth control, to the degree that I wonder how much you've been told about sex beyond "don't do it". I don't see this lack of information as something that indicates your level of intelligence, but instead the choices made by the adults in your life regarding what to teach you. It seems that they have chosen not to teach you much at all, and that's what I find troubling, seeing as how I think it's essential that everyone get a thorough grounding in the facts of sex and birth control well before they need to rely on their knowledge of them.
posted
There are more than one way to combat rape, yes. Because more than one way exists doesn't mean that the ways you do not choose are wrong for existing.
So, if I understand what you're saying, you're saying that feminism is irrelevant because one of the social needs they are addressing has more than one source?
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posted
No, because the ONLY important issues they are still fighting are fought equally well, if not better, through other means. Those issues are not really feminist issues at all, but general issues that feminists take a slant on.
posted
He's saying that feminism is not necessary specifically when it comes to rape. Nothing to do with the general relevancy of feminism. His point is exactly what he said his point is in his previous post.
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posted
You have shown that there is more than one approach, but not that the other approaches are more effective.
The "be a nice human being" approach didn't work for a couple thousand years before. "Treat us equally or we'll sue for everything you've got" is marvelously effective.
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posted
I wouldn't say that rape is an issue for feminists, UNLESS inadequate measures were being taken to stop it, or punish those who do it. Does anyone have any ideas about the way rape is handled by our law enforcement?
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posted
Alt, you say you aren't ignorant about birth control and don't wish to be treated as such. Fine, prove to me you can be an adult. Find me a list of the statistics of failure rates of various kinds of birth control and post the link here. Rebutt me with facts, don't rail at me and I will respect you.
Please note the interchange I just had with PSI in order to understand her position better. Make me want to understand you better. That is what hatrack is all about.
posted
[tangent] I have mine set to largest because my glasses aren't calibrated for use with a computer screen. Still, in the case of the last page I think it was Stargate who used too long of a quote. PSI's was borderline, you and Beren were fine. Using quotes is often good in a fast moving thread like this. But huge quotes that are picked apart at variables are not things I enjoy reading.[/tangent]
Stargate, do you live in an Islamic country? I don't consider a woman traveling alone to be an irresistable temptation to turn an otherwise innocent man into a rapist. Granted if a rapist is already present, he will probably pick on a woman alone rather than one accompanied.
P.S. kat, I don't see that "Treat us equally or we'll sue for everything you've got" is marvelously effective. Isn't the argument that there is still too much rape and domestic abuse? Who do you sue if your friend is being beaten and won't get help?
posted
It is effective. There's the scenario of no recourse at all, it's a family affair or the woman deserves it. And there's the scenario of unacceptable behavior actually has consequences for those who do it.
Stargate, you've got to be kidding me. You have to be a troll.
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posted
It's possible that more rapes have occured because more women are alone at certain times, but you certainly can't blame feminism for the actions of opportunistic psychos.
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posted
I hate to say it, but it's possible. It's harder to attract someone who has options than someone who really doesn't.
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posted
decides to spare dkw and not invoke Bob_Scopatz, even though he does appear to be rather hirsute. AJ
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posted
You know, I don't typically like to sound like I'm agreeing with Tres, but I don't think that items 1, 2 or 4 on Anne Kate's list are problems that have to do with women's rights. It's true that the vast majority of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men, but these men do not just assault women. They also assault other men, as well as girls and boys. It's possible that in a world with social equality to match the strides that feminism has made in legal equality there would be fewer rapes, but I'm not really sure. Given that the proportion of the male population that rapists constitutes, I think that it's entirely possible that that sort of violent and aberrant behavior would manifest itself no matter what the rest of the world were like. Obviously this doesn't mean that feminists should not work to end rape, but that's different from saying that it is a feminist issue.
As for items 5, 6, and 7, they by definition don't apply to the US. Now, I had been under the impression that our discussion was limited to conditions in the US, but the amount of atrocity in the world is certainly something that needs to be noticed and addressed. Many of the issues I raised with the feminist movement here evaporate when we start talking about the rest of the world.
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Regarding passion: Whether or not we are becoming more intolerant of passionate posting, it's my opinion that passion basically never helps make a point. If the most important thing to you (the hypothetical you) is to persuade someone to come around to your point of view, then you would be well served by reigning in the passion and remaining calm, collected, and rational.
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And finally, many of the women who have commented in this thread have said that modern feminism is not antagonistic toward men, women who choose domestic lifestyles, or "femininity." Now, I will grant that my experience does not constitute data, but the vast majority of women that I know who self-identify using the term "feminist" or "strong woman" are, in fact, antagonistic toward men as well as women who don't follow a "liberated" lifestyle.
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However I do think it is wrong to say that women are intrinsically more emotional and caring then men, and men are intrinsically more rational and logical than women. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imogen, what do you mean by this? By "wrong", do you mean inaccurate, or do you mean that it is a morally wrong thing to do?
Both I think. Wrong in that I don't think that the stereotypes are true and wrong to [resume that we can apply intrinsic gender stereotypes like that.
I'd take less issue with a characterisation that "Women tend to take on more nuturing roles than men" because that is a fact that reflects social reality, not an assertion as to the intrinsic characteristics of every man or woman.
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posted
*counts himself as a feminist who is not antagonistic toward men nor antagonistic against women who don't follow a "liberated" lifestyle.... the interest in fat guys with hairy bellies thing is a toss up though.*
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posted
Ok, i guess I misunderstood you, but then again you think wrong that I don't know what birth control is and how to use it. Besides, thats not what I wanted to talk about from the start. We kind of got off topic, I began talking about whether or not abortion is something people here in Hatrack agree or disagree with, and to explain their opinion. So then, what's your opinion?
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posted
Alt, the abortion issue was really Kasie's other thread where she talked about the march she participated in. We have been staying on topic in this thread, "Why We Still Need Feminism" surprisingly well for Hatrack, despite the few detours and occasional levity.
If you wish to discuss the abortion issue, why not bump Kasie's other thread? http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=023783 There are already a lot of opinions in that thread that are relevant to the particular issue you wish to discuss. You can start your own thread too, but normally unless there is a decidedly new twist on a topic, like the march was, the threads often die a rapid death because us oldbies are sick of discussing controversial topic X. Do a hatrack search on "gay marriage" and you'll see what I mean.
posted
Nah, sax75 - it was a general comment. I find that we tend (as a whole) to get bogged down in the peices rather than looking at the whole picture - which may be a feature of forum discussions, I guess. And I do the same thing, so the comment truly is to us all -
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