posted
It is easy to dismiss a group of people's "persecution complex" when you've never belonged to the group and never experienced the persecution. It's just as easy for some white people to make fun of black people's "persecution complex".
Personally, I don't love the fact that churches in southern California offer classes in how to argue with Mormons and tear down their beliefs. I don't love that anti-Mormon organizations advertise on street corners and at public fairs. I don't love being called a Satanist, a liar, or a deluded chump.
I also don't think about it most of the time Am I persecuted? Yeah, sometimes. Do I have a complex about it? Not really.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
"This statement expresses to me a misunderstanding of why the temple rites are guarded"
Perhaps I should clarify.
To ME, and to people OUTSIDE the church, why the temple rites are gaurded doesn't really matter, in terms of the effect that gaurded religious rites can have on the fears of a population. It doesn't make me think you're killing babies and using their blood to make matzah. Nor will it make most posters on hatrack think that. But it does cause that SORT of complex. Things in secret either get ridiculed, or feared, and often both.
" It is not done for effect or to put anyone off. And just because it puts people off isn't going to stop anyone. Would you stop your traditions if they put me off?"
I'm not telling you, or even asking you, to stop. I'm asking you to understand that certain parts of your doctrine have effects on the outside world, and asking you to understand what those effects might be.
"It is not done for effect or to put anyone off."
I know its not. But it doesn't matter why you do it, in terms of how its perceived... it matters why people THINK you do it.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote: They don't even want to know why I chose a different path.
Doesn't sound like you were making it very easy for them to understand.
There is no shortage of close-mindedness among LDS, as in any large group of people. Is it even more common among LDS? Perhaps. I really don't know.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Paul, I think what is bothering me about your post is the "Why do you make people so suspicious of you?" idea - that there won't be tolerance until people stop doing the stuff that makes people decide it's okay to ostracize them. Like the law in France where the solution to the problem of Muslims being harassed in schools is to forbid head scarves so they are harder to identify. It takes the responsibility for the emotion away from the people who are indulging in the emotion.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Yeah, Paul, I think it is very understandable that it would bother people, but I don't understand why people let it bother them. Does that make sense?
It really doesn't bother me when someone has secret rites. Sure it makes me curious, but I respect their desire to keep their rites secret. But at the same time it doesn't surprise me at all that lots of people would be bothered by it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Paul, I think what is bothering me about your post is the "Why do you make people so suspicious of you?" idea - that there won't be tolerance until people stop doing the stuff that makes people decide it's okay to ostracize them. Like the law in France where the solution to the problem of Muslims being harassed in schools is to forbid head scarves so they are harder to identify. It takes the responsibility for the emotion away from the people who are indulging in the emotion.
Moreover, I think history clearly indicates that it isn't TRUE. Refuse to assimilate, and be labeled "different," "strange," "dangerous"; assimilate, and people will be sure you are part of a hidden conspiracy, secretly controlling the media -- oh, and "different," "strange," and "dangerous."
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't want to necessarily blame this on the influx of LDS, but I've seen a trend of self-righteousness on Hatrack that generally accompanies a strong religious self-identity. It doesn't have to, of course, and it's not a 'given', but certainly can be tendency and downfall of the proudly religious, and especially within a religion that on some levels separates itself to protect its ideals.
I'm fairly religious, myself, and in a religion that practices similar methods, so this is no slam on being theologically inclined. However, at a place like Hatrack, it just isn't necessary to come in with a badge and flash it at everyone. As conversations organically happen, so will the expression of your ideals and your identity.
It's like that joke that goes, "How can you tell within five minutes if someone is from New York?"
"They'll tell you."
If I know a person's religious affiliation even before I know their userhandle, I mentally role my eyes. And usually these people are the most practiced at unabashedly slamming everyone else's beliefs while simultaneously crying foul play at the smallest perceived insult. Admittedly, this turn for the alternately warm and fuzzy/righteously indignant has turned me off of many threads on Hatrack, and pushed me into hiatus mode a couple of times.
I don't believe this is necessarily LDS culture, or the religion, or them as a group. I honestly don't know enough of about the culture, religion, and society to state that these would be to blame. But I will say that if you're USED to standing out or being 'different', adopting a sort of abrasive reverse elitism is often a reality. And this is very off-putting to non-members.
Of course, then you have the Lalos (you know you're a pain in the ass, man, so don't even get defensive on this one) who act just as righteously indignant on the other side in an areligious sense. And the conservative self-identified Christians who come in to say "homosexuality is wrong cause it just IS!" and argue vehemently that LDS and any other religion they don't understand can't be Christian no matter what. And then you have the Scott R.'s who are so awesome that they make one want to run off to Mexico with them after a single post, and not just to get good prices on medical care (if you know what I mean).
And, actually, it could also just as easily be a bi-product of those damned smileys...
posted
Maybe it's because they are men. Men don't like to talk about "feelings". But seriously, I think Visiting Teachers (female version of Home Teachers) would probably try to understand where someone is coming from before "giving up". I think a lot of Home Teachers would too, but girls are a little better at verbal communication.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Excommunication for non attendance/attending elsewhere just boggles my mind. That happened to my aunt as well. I can't imagine the doctrinal justification for it. Whereas I know of at least one scripture (2 Nephi 26:24-26) that says God does not turn any away who come unto him.
Posts: 383 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
I wouldn't think gender an excuse for simply not asking someone what had caused them to change their beliefs.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Thank you, Ralphie, for your thoughts and comments.
Mack - there's a long story behind it which is probably best shared via e-mail. Suffice to say that I dared to question certain behaviors and actions on the part of an Elder when I was 20.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:...sent me a letter announcing the end of my membership in the LDS church, including the revocation of my baptism...
That's awful. At least seventeen LDS church leaders would have had to drop the ball for that letter to find its way to your mailbox without you getting a say in the matter.
posted
I think as a phenomenon, the Mormon saturation is not a lot different from when the LOTR fans start hitting on each other in Elvish.
P.S. One can tell them that one doesn't believe a sane adult can think that's cool, and they get all het up like you called their Grandma "George" or something.
posted
Yeah, I am puzzled at the suddenness of the letter also. I don't know much about how such things are supposed to be done, but that doesn't sound like it.
I am mostly joking when I talk about men being empty-headed and bungling this because of a lack of communication skills. There are plenty of stereotypes out there of the "inept" home teachers dropping the ball. Stereotypes of inept visiting teachers also. But I don't know anything about the situation here. There are always at least 2 sides to every story.
On a side note about all the titles and names for everything, I think that is a side-effect of how highly organized the LDS church is. If you knew the extent of it, you might exclaim that we are a church of anal-retentives. They keep record of *everything*. I personally think it is pretty cool.
posted
Would it help our interaction to have a glossary of all the terms used by the various faiths represented here? Put the glossary in a sticky thread at the top of the forum?
Or should newbies be informed that when using religious jargon they need to explain the terms they use? That would seem like common courtesy when entering a forum for the first time, but with the Cards in charge of this one, newbies may assume that everybody already knows all the words.
I think we need to address the issue of religious jargon because the issue came up early in this thread and seemed to rankle almost everybody.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
How about people stop thinking it's a religious site instead of a special interest one based on a sci-fi/fantasy writer, and use religious jargon extremely sparingly. Like everyone else does.
posted
most people on the forum put explanations with jargon they may feel others are unfamiliar with, otherwise people ask. that goes with anything, not necessarily religious topics. a glossary is a little superfluous.
skrika, you probably didn't realize i was mormon because out of the five years i've been at hatrack i've probably mentioned it all of six times, perhaps twice in the past two years. i tend to avoid most religious-debate type threads, as i feel they are mostly counterproductive. for example... Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
There are lots of terms and new things to learn about Judaism also. Just look at the thread "Ask the Rebbetzin". Is that really a reason for such concern? We just need a "Mormon terminology" thread or something, like skillery said. People should feel as comfortable asking questions about Mormons as they do about Jews.
We don't bite-- haaaard.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:There are lots of terms and new things to learn about Judaism also. Just look at the thread "Ask the Rebbetzin". Is that really a reason for such concern? We just need a "Mormon terminology" thread or something, like skillery said. People should feel as comfortable asking questions about Mormons as they do about Jews.
There's been about four million. For the record.
(Threads about LDS theology, not Jews. Maybe fifty Jews, tops.)
posted
Ralphie, but there doesn't have to be four million. There only needs to be one. I tried to start a thread asking questions about Jewish theology and practices, and I was kindly routed to the one main thread. If there were a similar thing for LDS questions, we could keep the mess all in one place. Why does it have to be treated so differently? This is my whole point.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Bev - If you could keep all the LDS discussion in one thread, I may actually believe you are the chosen people.
Posts: 7600 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Beverly, there have been LDS question threads that have gone to fourteen pages. And I don’t think anyone here has ever felt uncomfortable asking questions about LDS theology. Nor have I noticed any of the LDS Hatrackers feeling uncomfortable about answering them. Sometimes when they weren’t even being asked. (To be fair, that last statement has never been true of Hatrack regulars. But we do get waves of newbies who pop into various threads, even non-religions ones, with “Well the LDS church teaches . . .”
And frankly, almost every religious thread turns into an LDS thread around here, just by virtue of the number of LDS posters compared to any other single religious group.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Yeah, Ralphie, I was just thinking about that. Many of the discussions on LDS theology can get pretty long.
I wonder why that is? More LDS Hatrack members? More desire to discuss things? More chaffing? Hmmm. Thinking aloud.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Porce, it's totally because you won't drink beer. I mean, duh. Look where Ralphie lives. It's all about the microbrews.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: And frankly, almost every religious thread turns into an LDS thread around here, just by virtue of the number of LDS posters compared to any other single religious group.
And a number of non-religious threads as well. I know I have been to blame for that. I can totally see how that could be annoying.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Part of the problem on the terminology thing is that the same term may be used by different groups. Case in point, one of the threads over the last couple of days referenced the "omnipotence" of God. As the conversation went on, it became obvious that "omnipotent" in the Mormon terminoloy doesn't quite mean what I think it means (i.e. all-powerful, no restrictions).
"That word you keep using -- I do not think it means what you think it means."
Posts: 159 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
i think it's because she wants my hot body, but is too ashamed to admit it. my beauty makes her uncomfortable. she's had me on her desktop for years. don't believe that poorly constructed lie on the desktop history thread.
edit: i think you know i am way too lazy to email you. it's all about the real time convos. yes, i sense the irony.
posted
I would like to point out that I never once used the phrase "persecution complex" and, I believe quite appropriately, put my comments about a "sense of persecution" in true and respectful context pretty far afield from what is generally implied when one uses the phrase "persecution complex."
I wasn't trying to be subtle in my post folks. I wasn't hinting that I thought y'all suffered from a persecution complex. I do believe there's a historical precedent that colors your perceptions, however. And that's not a "complex." It's a fact of existence. One that has its parallels in the newfound security consciousness of the US post-9/11. It may "increase safety" but it also shapes a view of the world that is no more true than the one that largely ignored terrorism prior to that fateful day.
And the irony is that while I didn't use that phrase, so many of y'all did.
And maybe that's because you assumed that's what I was thinking.
Or maybe it's just because you don't really have another way of interpreting the world.
The Christian Right Wing is going through a similar thing now. The "we are under attack" mentality has taken hold of them. And now they see it everywhere. And all events are interpreted in light of the belief that Christianity is under attack.
So, things that are simple attempts at fairness in public institutions become fresh attacks on God-fearing Christians.
I understand where they are coming from. I just don't think they have a rational basis for their current mindset.
And I daresay that is also true of the LDS church. The current suffering from verbal "slings and arrows" is not the same as the historical experience of being burned out of your villages or having a government edict against your existence.
Beware, because out of such beliefs can arise paranoia. Out of paranoia, fear. And out of fear, any number and depth of horrible behaviors are possible. The very things that were done TO you can end being done BY you in the name of safety.
That's what I worry about most with this country. I have no opinion on it with regard to the LDS church. But I see us as a Nation using security concerns (paranoia in large part) to excuse a raft of behaviors that would've horrified us a few years ago. And I'm not just talking about prisoner abuse. That's bad enough. I'm also talking about official statements that rules against torture don't apply in some cases. Like the "rules" are different if you're really really scared of a particular enemy.
The sense of persecution does do something to your psyche. And its up to you whether that is a good thing or not. You decide what influences you want in your lives, not me. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if I understand it, or if I would feel persecuted if I were in your shoes. What matters is that you live it or not.
I want our country to find a way to feel less afraid even in the face of further terrorist attacks. Because I think we become irrational and warped when we become afraid. It's understandable. And bad for us.
And once again, let me say that I meant no criticism.
In fact, there is only one criticism I have of the LDS members I encounter here at Hatrack. And that is that you all see anything less than a glowing positive statement about the LDS church AS a criticism. And you rush to the defense.
Again, only natural. But it makes discussion difficult.
And it is immature. As in you are a young faith, not as in childish.
But the fact is, you've already grown out of this. And it's annoying.
Just as America's continuing to act like a newbie nation has gotten tiresome to the rest of the world. We're old enough to know better. And yet we still run off half-cocked and get really upset if anyone disagrees with us.
It is immature. We are acting less than our age.
And I probably won't be posting back in this thread anymore because: 1) People latched on to something I DIDN'T say, 2) Made it into something far more negative than my words would EVER warrant. and 3) I don't want to be a source of pain or hurt to any of you.
I thought I was being clear. But even me at my most clear is something seen as through a glass darkly sometimes. I just don't have the words to express my horror at being thougt of as someone who would accuse a persecuted people of having a persecution complex. That anyone would think me that insensitive really does hurt.
posted
Bob, two does not a plethora make. I personally think you are overreacting on this particular matter, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.
But I haven't been around here very long, and I imagine there has been lots of bad blood that I haven't seen. Sometimes just a little thing can be "too much".
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I hope I have never made anyone feel uncomfortable for whatever their religious affiliation or lack of one may be.
I also hope anything I say on hatrack is taken as being representative of just me, and not representative of LDS people or females or engineers or any other group to which I may belong. After all, we know each other, here, don't we? We are individuals to one another, or so I hope and have always thought.
I really truly hope I've never come across as being exclusive of anyone. If so I apologize heartily and would like a chance to make amends.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Small digression, cause there is something I don't really understand, though I don't think it needs a separate thread.
Out of curiosity, how many people are there in Utah? Over 2 million? It's like a small country in itself. There are European countries just as small.
When people speak about the Utah culture, how different is it from Poland which - though much bigger - is 90+ % catholic, and yet I don't find it boring or stale. Or take Silesia, the area where I live,which might be comprable in terms of population - very homogenous, with most people from exactly the same backround and upbringing. So where does this feeling about Utah come from?
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Bob, I'm not dead certain what you think we're supposed to do. I mean, we're not being burned out of our homes anymore, so we don't stock loaded weapons and we don't keep ourselves prepared to leave town at a moment's notice.
But we do face a lot of questions and verbal attacks over the course of our lives, and so we typically get a bit jumpy about it, and make sure we know the answers to the questions. This isn't because we've cultivated or maintained some artificial sense of persecution. It's because we've learned from experience that a certain degree of expectation and preparation can help us out when the persecution does happen.
Personally, I don't think the Mormon "sense of persecution" is a major problem, compared with the others that have come up in this thread. It's a defense mechanism, and an understandable one for a group of people that still make up only 1% of the population of the country, and individually experience persecution, not on a daily basis, or even on a monthly basis, but often enough to make us somewhat wary. Wariness isn't a fault, as far as I've seen ...
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Kama, I think it comes, in part, from the general disdain that America has for quaint or old-fashioned versions of its own culture. Utahns cultivate a culture of order, family unity, adherence to rules, conformity, etc, that reminds many Americans of the 1950's. Since we all know from watching movies that the 1950's were the worst time ever in history Utah must therefore be an insipid and obnoxious place.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I still don't see how the presence of an "LDS group" here is any worse than the presence of other groups. I often feel left out of various groups here because (1) I don't live in the correct region to get together with anybody; (2) I don't think Strongbad is funny; (3) I actually like Bush; (4) I'm not interested in Mafia, Begging the Question, Last Post, or any of the other game threads; (5) I'm not a Wench; (6) I have no children, nor am I currently gestating an offspring.
So what if I want to discuss religion, something I actually DO have in common with some people here? I guess we could restrict religious discussions to Nauvoo, but Nauvoo is actually a lousy place to discuss most things, because it was invaded years ago by several closed-minded jerks: most of the really cool posters were driven away at that time, and the board has never quite recovered.
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Don't forget the group of people beholden to IM one another They send their little four-word posts and make everyone feel left out ...
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Am I persecuted? Yeah, sometimes. Do I have a complex about it? Not really.
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But seriously, I think Visiting Teachers (female version of Home Teachers) would probably try to understand where someone is coming from before "giving up". I think a lot of Home Teachers would too, but girls are a little better at verbal communication.
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