posted
Hey, kat, there's honestly no reason to apologize. Frankly, if I were making jokes about Jesus' penis, I'd fully expect people to be offended. And I would CERTAINLY have recognized it as vulgarity.
Since I don't think I've made a scatological joke in years, and don't really acknowledge 'em when they're made, the whole concept was off my radar. Consequently, I thought you were over-reacting. So, really, I should apologize.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i know inside jokes and cultural references can definitely exclude people, but i suppose my back was still raised about the whole secrecy thing and wanted to make sure it was understood that there is no secrecy in what is discussed here at hatrack. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a post I wrote last night replying to this comment was deleted, making the irony a tad amusing.
quote:Richard, I seem to remember your post, on page 1, right? To tell you the truth, I didn't understand it, so I ignored it. Maybe that's an example of the type of unexplained reference we are trying to avoid?
I'm terrible with names, so I have to admit I don't even know whether you're LDS, Ela
Anyway, the post made reference to a practice that I had reason to believe was still secret, although I openly admitted to having no personal experience. Assuming I'm not hallucinating, I was right.
quote:Kama, I think it comes, in part, from the general disdain that America has for quaint or old-fashioned versions of its own culture.
I don't have any problems with this statement. It's less true of Hatrackers, of course; this place is nothing if not quaint Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
*blink* I thought YOU deleted that post, Richard. I was wondering where it went. I really, REALLY hate when the mods delete things without reason or notification.
posted
Bob, I'm trying to say that people should be allowed a certain amount of reckless tromping without fear of offending anyone and without having to apologise.
People with thin skins need to toughen up and stop whining.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
and people that tromp need to pull their boots up a little higher and deal with the whining.
it goes both ways and comes in all colors.
this is not in reference to anyone's specific comments or cause. this is just a test. of how much time i really have to waste. dear heavens i hope i don't die tomorrow, that would be really disappointing.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Actually, that's a very Spanish construction, which serves to make me all the more curious about Bok.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i know inside jokes and cultural references can definitely exclude people, but i suppose my back was still raised about the whole secrecy thing and wanted to make sure it was understood that there is no secrecy in what is discussed here at hatrack. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a post I wrote last night replying to this comment was deleted, making the irony a tad amusing.
quote:Richard, I seem to remember your post, on page 1, right? To tell you the truth, I didn't understand it, so I ignored it. Maybe that's an example of the type of unexplained reference we are trying to avoid?
I'm terrible with names, so I have to admit I don't even know whether you're LDS, Ela
Anyway, the post made reference to a practice that I had reason to believe was still secret, although I openly admitted to having no personal experience. Assuming I'm not hallucinating, I was right.
quote:Kama, I think it comes, in part, from the general disdain that America has for quaint or old-fashioned versions of its own culture.
I don't have any problems with this statement. It's less true of Hatrackers, of course; this place is nothing if not quaint
quote:When I first came to Hatrack, I honestly don't remember so many Mormons being there. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, or maybe there was a different balance of threads, but for whatever it was, it seemed like the balance of things has changed. That is not bad, but...this is what I was trying to say in the other thread and apparently did not explain well enough.
I think there are numerically more Mormons right now than ever before, but in my opinion they don't command any larger mindshare than they did in 1997. My perception may be slightly biased by the fact that before I found this place I had barely even heard of the religion's existance, making the multifaceted discussions a little overwhelming at first, but I don't think it's inaccurate. Tom, AK, Yozhik, etc. feel free to correct me.
What _has_ changed is the number of threads. Duh. But since it's the same core group of people writing 10 posts per day instead of 10 per month, we end up covering a lot more details. In the early days the contentious topics were broad enough (gays, evolution, theism, etc.) that you couldn't tell at a glance who was a conservative Mormon vs. a conservative Protestant. The change since then has been a good thing, at least educationally.
As for the proliferation of fluff threads, social cliques, AIM, foobonic, etc. -- it's impossible to worry about them. Every community (especially online) has subcommunities. Take part if it appeals to you, or don't. It's not like they're measuring cup size at the sorority door entrance.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:This sentence is a good example of why dangling participles are a good thing.
I don't think that means what you think that means. Actually, that's not true. I know that doesn't mean what you think it means.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Do you HONESTLY have no clue why that post was deleted? The Cards are NOT tollerant of having Temple rituals discussed or described on their site. And no, it's not even allowed on Nauvoo.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
What an interesting thread. I'm likely to be self-indulgent and will speak in generalities which will not hold true in specific cases. Also, the opinions expressed in this post reflect those of one person who doesn't spend much time around here recently. You've been warned.
Banna, You put your finger on one of the main complaints I have about Hatrack in a way I've never really thought of it before. No doubt other people see it differently, but, to me, Hatrack has become (or maybe has continued to be) far too sterile.
From my perspective, with rare exceptions, this is not a place where things grow. There's an essential lack of creative vitality, such that even keeping a simple productive thread like a book discussion (or dkw's Bible discussion) going is a major chore and will generally come down to two or three people fighting to keep it alive.
What vitality there is generally takes the psuedo-life form of people yelling at each other or a sort of bs, often passive-agressive, taking offense. In my opinion, such empty passion doesn't constitute interesting or lively debate.
quote:We speak with passion. We listen with respect.
I used to think that these problems came from a lack of commitment to the second problem of this statement. Now, while I still think that there is a very problematical lack of respect here, I think that there is also a failure to live up to the first part. It might be more accurately said that "We react with passion."
To me, there is a big difference from the sort of reactive, defensive passion that we seem to have in great supply and a more internal, creative one. Maybe I'm just deluding myself, but I tend to think that I am a priori passionate about ideas. I like it when people disagree with me, or at least when there is an air of mutual respect between us. I tend to not really care and to walk away from people who I don't think it would be productive to talk to. They don't interest me. Often here I see the opposite pattern. People seem to be specifically drawn to non-productive discussions or aspects of discussions that at the least give them an excuse to act angry. I worry sometimes that they think that this is the only way they can feel passion. Life is more - much more - than sound and fury, signifying nothing.
To touch briefy on the lack of respect issue, one of my favorite theorists once said something like "It's common for people to say that 'To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' I want to expand that to say that 'To a person with a hammer, a screw looks like a deformed nail.'" To often, people seem to treat others' screws as deformed nails and the people themselves as incompetent carpenters. There are an infinite number of ways to build a life. Deriding someone else's and believing them incapable of recognizing good construction solely because they use a different method than the one that works for you is supremely foolish. Your One True Way wraps astounding amounts of hubris along with disrespect in one contemptible little package.
If you combine these two ideas, you get the sort of canned answer style of debate that you were talking about. I am constantly suprised by how lacking in complexity people's views of their own beliefs and of other people in general are. The canned answer, irrespective of context, is a prime example of this. If you can sum up the "right" way of thinking about these complex issues in a couple of pre-packaged ideas, you're either deluding yourself or a much wiser person than I. I also get the feeling like it's not worth giving the people who disagree with you more than this or to expect anything of value back from them, because they're too stupid/evil/liberal/conservative/etc. to have good reasons for what they believe anyway.
OF course, me saying that is sort of ironic, because that's almost the stance I've more or less taken with Hatrack. I've largely stopped posting the interesting thoughts that I have in response to what other people have said (for example, there's a whole sacred/profane angle to this thread that I think is really interesting) because I've come to regard this as largely pointless here. Maybe it's just that people aren't interested in the things that interest me, but it seems to me that maybe people aren't interested - perhaps are largely incapable of being interested - at all.
----
Obviously, I'm completely wrong here and you should feel free to dismiss everything I've said. However, maybe keep it just a little bit in mind. Live with it a little while before passing a final judgement on it.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:This isn't a Mormons versus the world thing. This is a some people aren't sure they have a place here anymore thing. HERE on Hatrack. And while people on 'both' sides are trying to explain it away by explaining the LDS faith, that isn't it. If suddenly every thread was about showing dogs, I would wonder if I still belonged. Does that mean I hate dogs, or people who show them? Of course not! It just means that I'm suddenly in a place I don't feel I belong in.
It's like the fluff phases. And before you get all offended, I'm not calling your religion fluff, I'm drawing a parallel. Occasionally we hit a period where every thread is a game or a joke and some people find themselves suddenly without a serious conversation to be involved in. And they complain, and we throw electronic snowballs at them and they start serious threads and all is right with the 'rack.
Only this is worse because people take their beliefs so much more seriously than anything else. And anyone that addresses them in less than a supportive manner evokes a threatened response. On all sides. And suddenly we forget what we're even talking about. It's not about the validity of any religions practices, people.
This is about Hatrack. Us as individuals who belong to that one group that is Hatrack. Us as individuals who wonder if we still belong when we don't see any place we fit.
It will pass or it will not pass. I think that the more time we spend trying to define what side we're on, the less likely it is to pass. Those sides only exist if you pick one. I don't want to pick a side; I want to pick people. I want to pick you. I want to pick us.
You hit the nail on the head, celia
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
WOW! I had no idea this topic would be so incendiary.
I am curious as to whether or not any of those who have indicated frustration/indignation feel better? Has this thread been cathartic or has it been exacerbatory.
Apparently I have a very thick skin when it comes to proselytization. I've actually had fun when approached by LDS folks. I enjoy a good religious discussion. Perhaps my enjoyment of debate and fencing with words make me less than a ideal candidate for conversion though.
I still maintain that skillery or any other Mormon Hatracker that indicates that they would be ecstatic if all their loved ones converted is being truthful as opposed to being disdainful
I am passionate about making and judging beer. If someone asked I would sing the praises of ale and lager. I would bore you to tears with the minutia of zymurgy. I would regale you with reasons not to drink American Light Lagers. Does this make me a snob? Perhaps, but more likely it just makes me passionate about my beloved hobby.
I think that we all need to have a cold one, or not, and realize that this is a pretty damn good message board.
If you think the thread has been cathartic and cleared the air then, wonderful. If you aren't feeling happy ask yourself if you believe that further posting will remedy this for you. I for one have enjoyed it. So, thanks to everyone that contributed.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Squick. Bah. Really. As if all the religious people in the world are going to give up the "chosen people" status that comes with knowing you've found truth. As if anyone could prove that our somehow becoming homogenously accepting of one another's totally different paths to truth would bring on some sort of life-changing enlightenment for humanity. Even Hindus, with their much-vaunted multiple paths and gods (you can devote yourself to any of them as they are all aspects of Brahman) often end up hating and killing each other. Ditto the different "rafts" in Buddhism (big, little, diamond, etc.). So don't be surprised when people blow off your elitist psychobabble, doc.
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I learned, as a wee child, that ending a sentence with a preposition was generally bad style.
I have never been a stickler on this point.
That said, I guess I'd been noticing I'd done it a lot today, to the point that my "sentence-ending preposition) capacity was full, and so I switched it up (consciously).
posted
*thwaps punwit* Back in your box newbie. You clearly haven't been around long enough to think the thread is over or cathartic yet. This thread is probably going to go on for at least another five pages and degenerate several times into fluff before the end.
It's a classic hatrack introspection thread. But I think this time there is a deeper undertone than others because we are getting to the core of some big issues here.
quote: I am curious as to whether or not any of those who have indicated frustration/indignation feel better? Has this thread been cathartic or has it been exacerbatory.
I haven't indicated frustration, but these threads are uniformly frustrating. It's like everyone is speaking at once.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Oww, BannaOj would you please be kind enough to let me outa this "newbie box" when it is relevant to post my thoughts. I would really appreciate that. Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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And for those mourning the disappearance of good root beer extract, River City Homebrew has you covered.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Taalcon, please, it's blatantly obvious why the post was deleted.
Porce: I just want to assure everyone there are no secrets on Hatrack Richard: I'm pretty sure [this] is still secret TPTB: maybe if we're sneaky nobody will notice that Porc was wrong
For the record, all I did was mention a name that would have no meaning to those without pretty in-depth knowledge of Mormon theology. No descriptions were given. If that's not allowed here, fine, but don't pretend like this is an open society.
Oh, and it wasn't a mendacious troll like that anti-Mormon website that got a thread deleted a couple weeks ago. I had an LDS source tell me by private email that it was actually overly charitable.
Tom, don't let deletions get you down. If you have something truly meaningful you don't want to lose, just don't post it (or be sure to keep good archives). Their loss.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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