posted
A thread that got deleted a little while ago had the makings for a good discussion. I'm quite irritated that it got deleted and I feel that it was cowardly to do so.
A story that started a thread told of a missionary who went with his companion to an investigator for a discussion. The location turned out to be a whorehouse as the protagonist missionary figured out. In the prayer to start the discussion, he did not invite the spirit, as the spirit, he felt, would be unwelcome there. He attempted the discussion but didn't go well or finish because the spirit wasn't present. This missionary lied to his companion about an appointment with the bishop in order to leave the whorehouse. He thought this story to be amusing because of the naivete of the other companion.
Two posts replying to the thread found this story sad, not amusing. (Bob and Tom)
My own post commented that of all places, the spirit would go to a whorehouse, because that's where it's needed.
posted
Not sure on Mormon doctrine on the spirit, but I have to agree that the geography is not a limiting factor. "Wherever 3 or more are gathered..." and all that. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Was there some big controversy that led to the deletion?
quote:Posting a thread about Catholic child molestors on a Vatican-centered Forum might be equally sensitive.
If it's about the Church's response, and isn't filled with altar boy jokes, and the topic of the forum was the Church, not pure theology, I don't think it'd be a problem.
Mack said it best - a cathouse is where the Spirit is needed.
Do mormons believe in the Trinity? If not, they're concept of the Holy Spirit is probably pretty different than I'm used to.
posted
Expect this thread to disappear, too. The moderation around here gets pretty thick when either the mods don't like you (and are looking for a reason) or it covers anything touchy about LDS members.
Posts: 72 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Well, there's the actual Mormon doctrine of the Holy Spirit, and then there's the folk traditions surrounding it.
Actual Mormon doctrine: The Holy Spirit is an individual, distinct from God, who serves God by acting as a messenger, communicating with us on His behalf, and making His will known. The Spirit usually manifests itself as feeling of elation, or an uncanny calmness, but can also issue warnings. Sometimes, it relays specific instructions ("Go knock on that door." "So-and-so needs your help; give them a call." "You don't really want to buy that porno magazine.") Other times, it reassures you that a decision is correct, or strengthens you through difficult moral trials ("Yes, the church is true." "Yes, you should be teaching this class, even though the kids are obnoxious." "Yes, God loves you, even during hard times.")
Mormons who have been confirmed members of the Church receive an ordinance (or rite) that confers upon them the "Gift of the Holy Ghost". This gift is basically an assurance of the Spirit's presence in your life to guide you in God's work and reassure you when you are doing what is right. If you turn away from God's service and willfully begin to sin, the gift is withdrawn, and for those who rely on it, it is replaced by a feeling of emptiness.
That last bit is what has grown into ...
Mormon folk traditions: Mormons who share the Gift of the Holy Ghost will often talk to one another in terms of the Spirit entering or fleeing as a person's choices and circumstances change. They will describe a spiritual warning about the immorality of a potential act as "the Spirit leaving" and describe a positive, mutual spiritual experience as "the Spirit coming into the room and filling us all" ... neither of which is actually the case if you take it literally.
However, Mormons in the mission field live day-to-day by trying to heed the influence of the Spirit, and these metaphors can become very real to them. On top of that, many very subtle folk doctrines have arisen around this phenomenon. Most prominently, it is said that the Spirit cannot be present when sin is occuring, where pernicious music is playing, where people are angry at one another, etc, etc. It gets to the point at which people think the Spirit is in and out the door five times every minute as your thoughts wander in and out of unholy subjects.
These folk doctrines are exaggerations of the core belief (which is much more reasonable), but missionaries can take them very, very seriously, right down to the letter, when they feel that the Spirit is the only thing sustaining them through a difficult time in their life. They assign rules about where the Spirit can or cannot be, and have near-obsessive ideas about what it takes to get the Spirit into a place. You have to pray, you have to turn off all worldly music, everyone must be dressed modestly, no one can be angry at one another, etc. Once those conditions are satisfied, and once you feel its presence, you know that it has "entered the room" and therefore, everyone around you must feel it, too, and everything will turn out all right.
In truth, it doesn't work that way. The Spirit serves the will of God, and often acts in surprising ways we cannot predict or nail to a schedule. The Spirit is not a physical substance that can fill a room or flee it, and it deals with each of us as individuals, as we need it. A missionary can do a miserable job of everything, totally turn from the positive influence of the Spirit in his own life, and yet his investigator can have a marvelous spiritual experience with him, and vice-versa.
So ... that's my view of it in a nutshell. Did I miss anything, other Mormons?
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
By the way, mack, I think you're being too harsh. This guy put up a very personal story, and was probably surprised when people saw it differently than he did. The reactions were pretty negative, and I think we should give him a chance to back down and save face, rather than crucifying him for telling a story that he first saw through his own naive, youthful eyes.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Matt. 18:20 - "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
So, I guess in a whorehouse there's apt to be at least 4 people, so they're out of luck.
All joking aside, it is my opinion that one can feel the influence of the Holy Spirit regardless of their physical location. I think that one's state-of-mind has a lot more to do with it. So, while it would be possible for a spiritually uplifting conversation to take place in a whorehouse, I can understand the Elder's reticence to do so (you know, it'd be pretty distracting and all). I don't think that lying about having an appointment with the bishop would be the way to go, but perhaps they should have stayed for a little while and then made arrangements to continue the discussion at a later time (and in a different location if it was important to them).
quote:Expect this thread to disappear, too. The moderation around here gets pretty thick when either the mods don't like you (and are looking for a reason) or it covers anything touchy about LDS members.
Actually, the mods here put up with a hell of a lot.
posted
Wow, thats all very interesting. I guess I had read that in the bible but just never picked up on it.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
That glue was to stop all the harsh-talk against Jamie. I don't think she was being harsh at all. If someone's story comes across as negative, and they don't exactly believe it should be, they should explain themselves, not try to drop the discussion altogether. Granted, I didn't read the original thread, I really haven't much real footing in THIS discussion, either... Anyhow, just my quick thought.
posted
That was a core belief in the days when Christians were persecuted; one of the reasons why the members would still meet to pray, even though they were afraid of being caught.
When times got rough, the preist would go and meet with small groups of people rather than having them all converge on the same location. It was harder to catch them that way, and that verse was always spoken.
Don't remember where i heard all that, but I remember it from my religious education as a Catholic....
posted
Okay, maybe my use of the word cowardly was harsh. However, saying that I'm being harsh when I got beat up for three pages is hardly a fair standard.
But..your post before was good clarification of the difference between LDS doctrine and folklore. There seems to be a lot of mixing of the two, and it's hard to sort out.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I was unaware that this Forum is officially Mormon centered. Am I missing something?
That's a good point. It's heavily Mormon-populated, but I've never felt marginalized by that. I can't think of anything that couldn't be said about Mormon's here that would be polite or appropriate if said about them where they are a minority.
posted
And they generally are, I think. I've never been in an environment where so many religious topics can be productively discussed. Either people aren't interested, or are immediately dismissive of others' views, or the education level is so low as to make it not worthwhile.
posted
I missed the first thread, and I dont' know the story behind its deletion, but I certainly think this thread has been productive for me because of Geoff's little bit about the Holy Spirit in the Mormon church. Very interesting!
So, thank you, Mack, for making this thread.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Not having seen the thread mack referred to, yet curious about the conversation, would like to add 2 cents . . .
Jesus preached to the downtrodden, the sinners, the depressed, the ill, the doubters, the suffering, the tax collectors and yes, even the whores.
I hope that the Christian community, no matter the sect or denomination, remembers that we are ALL God's children, and as Rat said - (parpahrase)the Spirit moves in very mysterious ways. Keep that line of communication open . . .
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Shoot. I didn't mean my comments to be harsh or to start any sort of dogpile on the original thread. I kind of would like to believe that what Geoff posted about it is the correct thing:
quote:This guy put up a very personal story, and was probably surprised when people saw it differently than he did. The reactions were pretty negative, and I think we should give him a chance to back down and save face, rather than crucifying him for telling a story that he first saw through his own naive, youthful eyes.
And I just want to say that I was NOT judging anyone in what I said. I think that the situation is completely understandable and I think that young people full of the zeal of religion, or patriotism, or revolution, or what have you, often make the best missionaries/soldiers/revolutionaries. But they also often lack perspective.
I think back on the serious undertakings I was involved in at that age and even at much later ages and...well, I could tell you stories if I weren't so embarrassed by them.
So, really...no judgement.
There is a function for these stories in our lives though. And if the post was deleted for what Geoff said, then, yes, there's an opportunity there. To recognize in oneself the possibility of missing an opportunity like that, or mis-judging it, or mis-judging another person... that's a good lesson to learn, I think. And one that we all need to learn and relearn.
The point of the story was that the spirit wouldn't go into a whorehouse. But in reality, the spirit was there. It wasn't the spirit that was chased out...but two young missionaries.
I know one thing about how God works. If that man in the whorehouse was on the path to being saved, God found a way to make it happen. That day was not his one and only chance.
Maybe that day was more about teaching the two missionaries, neh?
Is that such a bad thing?
Some lessons are painful. But those are the ones we usually end up being most grateful for in the long run.
. . . PS: I realize that there's an element of "implied judgement" in what I've posted here. But I promise you, I am NOT judging anyone. How can I say that? Because I've already forgotten who wrote that post. I don't even think I looked to see who wrote it. I opened it because the title was intriguing, and often I don't look to see who started a post because I find that if I look first, I tend to ignore posts by members I don't already know well.
So...even if I was judging you, I don't know who you are.
But I'm not judging you. Because if I judged you harshly for your story, I'd have to judge myself even more harshly for the things I've done without recourse to youth, inexperience, or being seriously concerned about what God wanted at a particular moment.
And I haven't condemned myself to that extent because I know also that I can and have been forgiven all of that junk.
And, as I said, as much as it pains me to think about those things, I cling to those memories because they help me avoid the same mistakes in the future.
Of course,...that assumes that leaving the whorehouse was a mistake... That's perhaps too strong a word too.
I'd prefer to call it a missed opportunity.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote: Basically, they're taking the discussions (as the six lessons the missionaries give are called).
Whahuh? I took the discussions with 2 missionaries in FOUR sessions, not SIX. Has it changed? I know the LDS Church is very specific when it comes to rules about evangelizing, so has the official discussion plan changed?
[ July 10, 2004, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]
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posted
Nick, did you have a baptism date? If someone isn't really interested, not all the discussions are taught. You probably stopped before getting through them all.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Shan is right. Jesus proved that everyone, including the seemingly lowliest people on earth, are children of God and should be treated as such. It is most definetely not our place to judge where the Spirit should or should not dwell. As a gift from God, it seems very pretentious of us to say that someone doesn't deserve to be invited to recieve it.
posted
I think it's fascinating of when moral judgement on each other is considered okay and when it isn't. I guess it's okay when its a newbie.
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posted
On the other hand, if the decision not to invite the Spirit was motivated out of respect for the Spirit, then it sounds like they were inexperienced people in a situation they didn't know how to handle who chose as best they could. Even if the decision was wrong, some consideration is due for at least considering difficult issues and attempting to do the right thing.
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