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And the legacy of teaching me to love books, and encouraging me to educate myself as much as possible, and also teaching me by example what sort of life I wanted to lead, those things stay with you forever. How can I ever be on my own considering that? I would venture to say that few people can succeed without having had at least a little of such in their lives.
[ July 21, 2004, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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I would argue that these resources, AK, are values which you have internalized and are no longer receiving from external sources. Ergo, they are your own, not someone else's.
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"I really wonder who can claim they are truly on their own."
If you're going to believe that the concept has any value of any sort, you have to arbitrarily draw the line somewhere. Personally, I think nebulous gifts of personality can't count towards this idea, if only because then we face the philosophical concept that we are all beholden to each other -- which is fine, but then makes the nuances of this conversation impossible.
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Ak makes an excellent point. Most of us humans receive an *extreme* amount of nurturing compared to, say, sea turtles. All these things are gifts. And once they are given to you, they become yours.
It does seem that Tom's point is that at some point these gifts are no longer required. I certainly don't require the same amount of emotional nurture from my parents now as when I was a child. It could be argued that I don't need it at all now, or even that I really didn't need it then, but I still benefit from it and am very grateful for it.
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I guess I'm hearing something that's unspoken. "You're not really on your own, not like ME."
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quote: Personally, I think nebulous gifts of personality can't count towards this idea, if only because then we face the philosophical concept that we are all beholden to each other -- which is fine, but then makes the nuances of this conversation impossible.
According to your own personal lexicon, yes. But other people have a different take on it.
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"But other people have a different take on it."
A different take how? Do you think it would be possible to have a meaningful conversation about when people can be considered to finally be on their own if you include the idea that anything you have ever learned from your parents counts as a dependency -- forever?
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AK, the reason I'm not saying it is that I'm not thinking it.
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Any definition so vague its useless isn't a worthwhile definition (by definition ). AK, if you define on your own so that nobody is ever on their own, its time to reconsider that definition.
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Obviously, ak has a different take on it, for one. As for what I think, well, I think we weren't really on our own then. But since we are no longer "starving students" (we lived on a very tight budget) and are full fledged functioning members of society, they know that we don't need such gifts anymore. So they don't give them.
My parents are wealthy, though, and anxious to share that blessing with their children. There are numerous little ways that we benefit from that. For instance, my parents have built an incredibly large and gorgeous home in Oregon. Now when we visit them each year, we don't have to worry about getting a hotel room or going out to eat. That makes our vacations less expensive.
And we are aware that someday we will receive some sort of inheritance from both sides (I assume) but any wise person knows you don't count your chickens before they hatch, so we don't live as though we count on that. We never have.
In my opinion, we are on our own. In your opinion, we are not and few people are.
What about people on welfare or other financial aide? What about tax breaks for the poor? No, I don't hold your personal definition of "on your own" as my own definition.
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"The fact that he have living parents who *might* help us out some day makes us dependent on them?"
The fact that you have living parents who still regularly send you gifts and from whom you reliably expect to inherit a large sum DOES make you slightly dependent. That said, only if you consider perfect independence to be its own virtue should you consider this an inherently bad thing. In my experience, truely perfect independence generally carries costs that outweigh any perceived benefits.
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Tom -- I'm sorry for deleting my post after you read it. I thought I got to it in time.
But to respond to your response -- I stated earelier that we do not receive gifts from parents anymore. One year the gifts just stopped coming. I didn't even notice it because we never planned on receiving it anyway. I don't know how many years ago that was.
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In that case, Porter, I'd say that my PERSONAL criteria for on-your-ownness has been satisfied, as long as you do not consciously edit your own behavior to ensure your inheritance (which I'm confident that you do not). *laugh*
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No man is an island? I think humans are pretty interdependant. Even the hermitiest of hermits finds it difficult to completely withdraw from that.
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Hmmm. But is it natural to never depend on another person once you reach adulthood? I mean this in any way of dependence.
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Heck, I don't even allow us to plan on getting a bonus, of which I always get a very generous one each year. I refuse to even speculate in the fasion "If we get a bonus, what do we want to do with it?" It annoys Mary some time, but it's something I feel pretty stronly about. Once we get the bonus, or tax rebate, or whatever, *then* we think about what we might do with it. It probably comes from the "avoid debt!" lessons that I have gotten so often from my parents and church leaders.
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That raises, of course, a very interesting question. Independence (or self-sufficiency) is seen as a traditional American value; it's a concept we hold rather highly, and is often used in negative ways to criticize people who are dependent upon charity or federal assistance for their own welfare. It is, in fact, considered one of the highest virtues by conservatives, who regard it as an end unto itself.
And yet, throughout this discussion, we've heard time and time again that dependence is not in fact some clear-cut thing, and that reliance on others is something that we can fairly expect from people well into their mature adulthood.
So what makes "dependence" into a sin? Why do we regard Anne Kate's gratitude to her parents for the virtues they passed down as a charitable impulse, but bristle at the thought of financial gifts to adults?
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I think the issue here is that we try to give back to society what we get out of it. A sort of societal "karma" as it were.
In other words, don't be a bum.
On that note, there is a sort of system like that in our family. My younger sister got married before us. On numerous occasions, she gave us "hand me downs" that they didn't need anymore. Even our landlords gave us some "hand me downs" that would otherwise have been donated to a church-owned thrift store. (I think they felt sorry for us because we never have new stuff. We are tightwads.)
Now we are doing well enough and we try to pass on the same sorts of things to other family members. Porter's younger brother follows in the footsteps of extreme thrift to avoid debt. We gave them our old bed, couch, and recently, piano. We knew they weren't the best items, but they would be greatly appreciated.
Funny, though, my newly married younger brother, who desires to be every bit as thrifty, married a gal who likes to spend money and have nice things. *They* gave *us* their old entertainment center when they bought a gorgeous brand-new one! We were pretty amused that the system was working backwards here.
Poor guys. They will probably always have nice stuff, but never be wealthy. And he will always be working his tail off to keep her happy.
I found out that my mother inherited $25,000 from her great grandfather (he was well off and didn't spend it, he invested in IBM before it became...IBM, really). My father never knew. I mean, he knew she inherited money, but had no idea it was that much. Mom handled the finances, dad just worked and never bothered looking at the bank account.
My mother blew the entire inheritance. I'm still not sure on WHAT...but what sucks is that my father HAD been making pretty good money, mom was working too, and they should've been comfortable and not in debt anymore.
Instead, they're divorced, dad is fighting to make money and pay stuff off from mom, and mom has 17 credit cards maxed out to 20,000...at least.
Just a waste. I mean, it seemed shocking to me, that I always felt my family struggled to make ends meet, but it didn't have to be that way.
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- as long as you do not consciously edit your own behavior to ensure your inheritance --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean sucking up to the parents so that they don't write me out of their will?
Hmmm. Maybe I've been hanging around criminal court too much, but I was thinking something entirely different. Although I guess that wouldn't be "editing your behavior" so much as adding something violent to it.
posted
I know someone whose father died and left almost a million dollars between his two kids. The 30-year-old daughter blew about $400,000 in nine months. She's now in danger of losing her house, one payment away from the car being repossesed, and living hand to mouth while her four children are clothed by and recieve all luxuries from their grandparents.
Not that that helps this thread in any way - I agree with Tom on everything - but it's such a mind-blowing story to me I almost can't believe it.
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But it's scary to see what can happen. I don't want to turn out to be them. But I look at where I am now and think "Crap, I'm going nowhere."
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Because it sounds like a lot of money. That isn't true, though. People in the lower income brackets spend more of their income on everyday items, and across the board, Americans live beyond their means. Last year, we actually had a NEGATIVE savings rate.
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Hmmmm, I guess so. I just seems like I hear a lot about people who did alright when things were tight, but got out of control (debt) when they had more money.
Mack, as long as you try your best not to become like your parents, you won't. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yeah mack, I do. But you're moving towards a goal, so you're not really going nowhere, even if it seems like it sometimes.
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I think the reason for that perception is that most of the people that we know of that have gotten fabulous amouns of money are actors, singers, atheletes, etc.. They didn't get their money because they are good with money -- they got their money because of popularity.
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Oh, she didn't do all right before the inheritance either. It's just that the inheritance didn't change anything at all.
I still can't quite believe that. Half a million dollars in nine months. At that point, you're just burning it.
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I think I am reminded of all the conservatives who say about the disadvantaged, "We were poor, and nobody ever helped us, by gum! We worked hard and succeeded ON OUR OWN!"
I guess a sense of independence and determination to be self sufficient is a virtue, though I always think to myself of all the things they WERE given, that maybe they just don't acknowledge.
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*sometimes wishes she had parents who could help her out*
<--- supports her mom.>
However, while that sounds like whining, I have to admit I DID inherit a farm (albatross though it may be at times) from my grandmother (mom's mom), so my life is considerably better than if that had not happened...
posted
From the beginning, America was much more a place where "anybody can make it" than Europe was at the time. It became a source of pride here, and became part of our moral compas, so much so that people that don't make it on their own are viewed as failures. This is not good, because success stories in people bringing themselves out of poverty without help are very rare. It's so difficult, that it's practically impossible for most people.
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As for the conservative ideas of the disadvantage, it isn't about leaving them alone as much as those who disagree believe it happens to consist of that. Rather, it is about giving something to those who are not going to do anything with it other than smooch off society. In every situation explained here, the money and help was there as an *assist* to independance. Now, I fully admit there are Conservatives who do see any "assist" for the disadvantaged as wrong. However, my conversations with most consist of the need to place any assistance with a way to create independance.
Of course, this has gotten WAY off topic. I think we have gotten to the point where "growth" and "maturity" depends on cultural definitions. The conversation has become subtle name-calling.
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I don't know if I am conservative or liberal or what. But I do like the idea of doing all we can to help people become more self-reliant while at the same time being compassionate to them in their needs. I guess I'm an idealist.
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"You're all heretics, you know that?"--Father Benedict to my Christian Moral Life class in college.
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