posted
One way soldiers protect us is by providing an alternative target for the bad guys. Otherwise, us peaceful folk would be the target.
I wish the only resistance we were encountering in Iraq was "Iraqi resistance fighters." Unfortunately, they don't wear little flags on their shirts, so it's hard to tell what their nationality is. I'm guessing that most of them are jobless, most of them are lazy, and many of them are from Syria and Saudia. Or do you think they pour concrete, lay brick, haul trash, and feed their little suburban families in between gun-waving stints?
Just keep sponging up the weasels and soon the whole surrounding region will be weasel-free.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
"I ask because one characteristic of a real troll is that the troll pretends to be a member of the group and inspire trust. So what is the person that is unabashedly contemptuous of the group, its common ideals, and its mores?
I think that I'm still a troll (here, at any rate), but perhaps I belong to a special subgroup of trolls."
Out of interest, WS, are you saying that you are in fact contemptuous of Hatrack, its ideals, and its mores? I mean, yeah, that's what you're saying, but is it what you're saying?Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think we should just try ignoring wraithsword since he's claimed that he has contempt for Hatrack and if he's lying about that, well than he's just plain annoying and makes less sense then Fallow. In fact I think he might be Fallow.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Amazing, I'm the first to offer praise, but instead of following in my lead everyone does the all hail thing. Oh well, might as well hop on the new bandwagon. Telp
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Forget Telp. I, and my possible relative want2write, are the subject at hand. Us and trolls. Or, perhaps, I, a troll, and want2write (probably an aspirant author), are the subject at hand.
Anyway, I will answer all questions...either directly or indirectly, in my 100th post, which will be very soon.
Oh, and Telp is okay with me. Continue your adoration.
Posts: 100 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lots of good reasons? More specifically, good reasons involving weapons of mass destruction as advanced by President Bush?
quote:"What gives us the right to decide their future?"
As the Occupying Power...up to the handover. Which has happend mostly.
Occupation = Right to decide another nation's future. Is that the international law precedent we want to advance?
quote:"Do we now have the responsibility to feed them, clothe them, educate them an provide them education?"
To a degree, as the Occupying Power.
To a very large degree.
quote:"What is our responsibility to Iraq?"
To assist in it's rebuilding.
And protect it from terrorist and military attacks.
quote:"We are treating the terrorist murderers like a NATION."
Global terrorism cannot function without state support.
Like Saudi Arabia?
quote:"End the war."
Hear hear.... but let's win it first
Which war are we talking about? According to you, the Iraq war is over. According to the president, the war on terrorism cannot be won. As he prudently pointed out, terrorism cannot be stopped, it can only be contained.
edited: replaced "immediate threat to country" with "weapons of mass destruction."
[ September 09, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Lots of good reasons? More specifically, good reasons involving weapons of mass destruction as advanced by President Bush?
There were strategic reasons, tactical reasons, Saddam's support for terrorism (note that I did not say 9/11), regional stability issues, Saddam was a threat Israel, Saddam did try to buy WMD from Niger, Saddam did try to buy Uranium (he wasn't able to obtain either but a felon on probation isn't allowed to try to buy a gun even if he doesn't get it).
quote: Occupation = Right to decide another nation's future. Is that the international law precedent we want to advance?
So let's let Tuvalu decide then. The Iraqis are getting their say as was pointed out by the ignored latter part of Telp's argument.
quote: To a very large degree.
Its also the Iraqis responsibility to themselves. You also seem to hypocritically claim that we should provide for everything, but that we shouldn't have a say.
quote: And protect it from terrorist and military attacks.
I think that's part of rebuilding.
quote: Like Saudi Arabia?
The fact that Saudi citizens were the hijackers or the backers of Al Queda does not mean that Saudi Arabia's government supports terrorism.
quote: Which war are we talking about? According to you, the Iraq war is over. According to the president, the war on terrorism cannot be won. As he prudently pointed out, terrorism cannot be stopped, it can only be contained.
So in that case let's just sit back and hope that we're not attacked as opposed to aggressively pursuing terrorists.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
But we can pursue terrorists and should...but Iraq is fighting terrorism. Your reasons that you give can be attributed to just about any nation in the middle east, many former Soviet states, a hunk of SE Asia and...isn't getting any closer to getting the one responsible for 9/11. Bushites try to connect Iraq and terrorism but the link is pretty weak. And wars won't defeat terrorism. Thousands of Americans were killed by 9 Saudis using US hardware and good planning. That's it. How many extremists do we kill or "occupy" before terrorism won't work? Has it worked for Israel? Will it work for Russia? How is the threat of death a threat to a guy who is willing to kill himself for a cause? Honestly, it isn't. Bush started out strong after 9/11...he had the world behind us, he had a strategy to freeze the one thing terrorists really need...money. With the world behind us, where would terrorists hide? He squandered that support and fights a war that clearly has had no impact on terrorism.
Did Iraq fund 100% of world terrorism? 50%? 10%? Who knows? Just for fun, let's say that Iraq funds half of the world's terrorists. Ludicrous to be sure, but let's just say. Let's say the other half is supported by one other country. Do we have it in us to be at war in two countries as we are now? We are sending people back to the Iraq that we told were done after their first tour. Can we do this again to Iran? N. Korea? Saudi Arabia (as if...) or Pakistan? Heck, we aren't even done with Afghanistan (conveniently not mentioned much by Bush anymore) and there are more cops in NYC than there are troops in Afghanistan to look for terrorists.
Even if I were to give credit to slowing terrorism by invading Iraq (and I am not) it is clearly NOT a sustainable method of fighting terrorism...minus going into MORE debt, drafting more troops and kicking ass in a half dozen or more countries. Ain't likely, is it. If that is the Bush strategy for the war on terrorism, we lost already.
fil
Edit:
quote: So in that case let's just sit back and hope that we're not attacked as opposed to aggressively pursuing terrorists.
...and how come anything less than invading another country is considered "sit(ting) back and hop(ing) we're not attacked" ? Is that the ONLY tools in the Bush tool box?
posted
It has worked for Israel to point where they have reduced terrorism quite a bit, especially with the walls, but also with operations that have taken out terrorists leaders.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Yes, the eye for an eye strategy is working out great. Funny how the opposition keeps coming up with leaders to replace the ones killed. If you want to live like that and call it "working" then go ahead. About 200 Israelis die a year in terrorist related attacks. Maybe about 3% of their population? That is a country with a population less than NYC, right? That is roughly a third of the murders that occured in NYC in 2002. If 1/3 the murders in NYC happened because of ONE group, would that be considered a successful campaign? Just wondering how their current Mayor would spin that kind of number. "Crips killed 200 innocent civilians this past year...down from a year ago! Woohoo!"
posted
WraithSword is obviously not Wants2Write. I mean, come ON. I would say Ced, but that's too obvious and too knee-jerk. Besides, Tom's Ced-radar is legendary, so if it's not going off, this probably isn't Ced.
I hope it's not Centurion, because I had some respect for that guy, while this guy is just a jerk.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Actually, I was thinking WraithSword is more like a more obnoxious and in-your-face version of Fan/Verb/Gate. She was passive-aggressive, WS is just vitrolically aggressive.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:NFL: There were strategic reasons, tactical reasons, Saddam's support for terrorism (note that I did not say 9/11), regional stability issues, Saddam was a threat Israel, Saddam did try to buy WMD from Niger, Saddam did try to buy Uranium (he wasn't able to obtain either but a felon on probation isn't allowed to try to buy a gun even if he doesn't get it).
Some of those reasons might be valid. Before we went to war, Americans could have had an honest and productive discussion regarding those reasons. Unfortunately, Bush gained support by focusing on WMDs that never materialized. We therefore never had the proper debate that this weighty decision required. That's not the way we do things in a democracy.
quote:NFL: So let's let Tuvalu decide then. The Iraqis are getting their say as was pointed out by the ignored latter part of Telp's argument.
You're right about ignoring part of Telp's statement. I apologize for that sneaky debating tactic. Watch out for similar use of such tactics in the future, when another country wants to "liberate" another.
Btw, let's see what the Iraqis think shall we:
quote:Fifty-five percent said they believe the U.S. military won't leave Iraq unless Iraqis force them out, the survey showed.
Asked about the planned June 30 transfer of power from the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority to a transitional government, 58 percent favored a caretaker panel chosen by the United Nations, while 20 percent said it should go to the American-appointed Iraqi Governing Council.
Asked whether Iraqi women should have more freedom than before the invasion, 53 percent of respondents said they felt women should take a more traditional role than before, and 26 percent said they felt women should be allowed more freedom.
Asked about when they wanted U.S. and British forces to leave, 57 percent chose immediately, as in the next few months, the poll said; 36 percent said troops should stay longer.
quote:You also seem to hypocritically claim that we should provide for everything, but that we shouldn't have a say.
We are responsible for them because we invaded their country. To turn around and say that by fulfilling that responsibility gives us a paramount right to meddle in their affairs is ridiculous.
quote:The fact that Saudi citizens were the hijackers or the backers of Al Queda does not mean that Saudi Arabia's government supports terrorism.
Good point. But as fil pointed out, there are many nations that fit the loose criteria Bush has set for his preemption doctrine. Saudi Arabia, for example,
quote:But tape obtained by NBC News reveals that, inside Saudi Arabia, on Saudi television, Crown Prince Abdullah told a strikingly different story about who was to blame.
NBC News translated Abdullah's remarks from Arabic: “Zionism is behind it. It has become clear now. It has become clear to us. I don’t say, I mean... It is not 100 percent, but 95 percent that the Zionist hands are behind what happened.”
Other senior Saudi officials reaffirmed the claim that supporters of Israel — Zionists — were behind the terror attacks. Prince Nayef, the Saudi Interior Minister said, “Al-Qaida is backed by Israel and Zionism.”
quote:A former Senate Intelligence Committee chairman [Bob Graham] has asserted that the general who ran the war in Afghanistan said more than a year before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq that his resources were being shifted in preparation for taking on Saddam Hussein....
Graham's book also discusses apparent financial ties of Saudi officials with two of the September 11 hijackers.
Graham said the matter was discussed in a 28-page section of the committee's report on the attacks that was kept secret at the request of the White House.
The Associated Press reported in August 2003 that the classified part of the report examined interactions between Saudi businessmen and the royal family that may have intentionally or unwittingly aided al Qaeda or the suicide hijackers.
quote:An inquiry by the joint House-Senate Intelligence Committee has suggested there is evidence that money from the Saudi government made its way to two Saudi students in the United States and from them to two of the hijackers -- Khalid al Midhar and Nawaf al Hazmi.
Lieberman, D-Connecticut, and other prominent senators said the report raises hard questions about Saudi cooperation with the war on terrorism. They said Saudi officials have failed to crack down on funding that goes to terrorists and fuels Islamic radicalism.
quote:"It is worth stating clearly and unambiguously what official U.S. government spokespersons have not," the report notes. "For years, individuals and charities based in Saudi Arabia have been the most important source of funds for al Qaeda, and for years the Saudi officials have turned a blind eye to this problem."
The report, prepared by a bipartisan panel of financial and terrorism experts, reveals no new details about U.S. or Saudi efforts to staunch terror funding. But it plainly asserts what many officials have said privately for some time. "I know a lot of people in the administration are really upset with this, but it essentially lays out what many of us have been saying," said one senior administration official.
posted
Wraithsword is just an attempted distraction from the very serious subject I've presented.
Can we look at the 2 Figure heads of World War III
George W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden
two sons, both from two of the most outrageously rich and powerful families on the Entire planet of Earth.
Together they have created a global religious war
full of guns and bombs and knives
and because of this war
more WORLD WEALTH is being shifted into the wrong hands
poverty is increasing as plague is spreading
How rich are the men who are leading these wars, how MUCH richer are they getting from these wars???
Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton.
HELLO.
HELLO?
HELLO???
Both sides consider the other satan.
WAR is satan.
War only works in fiction.
When war happens in real life, humanity ALWAYS suffers!
If Bush, OSC and the Boys are going to maintain a WAR, they'd better be willing to SACRAFICE while they ask others to make the greatest scrafice.
Bush enacted the ten year tax cut plan before the war, it is BILLIONAIRE tax cut heavy, 40% the richest 1% for ten sraight years.
No matter what.
40% of Americans live below the poverty line.
Hello.
Bill Gates can talk to me about computers and technology all he wants, but if he wants to preach to me about Jesus, i'll listen to him like I would any man off the street.
I don't want the Wealthiest men in America ruling our Churches and Pulpits.
If this is a religious war, we should begin and open discussion on Jesus and Mohamed.
posted
Closer to 0.3%, but that's beside the point. Killing the leaders is working our pretty well. Of course they can come up with new ones, but those are less effective and result in internal power struggles. Notice how there's only been one suicide bombing since Israel took out Yassin and his successor? Also look to how few bombings have been carried out since the fences were erected. Besides what would you have the Israelis do? Just sit back and wait to be attacked? Yes I used the same phrase again because you haven't offered any other suggestions.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hey, Thor want to try to provide some proof of your claims? Or does poverty consist of anyone not driving a Lexus?
George Bush isn't nearly as rich and powerful as John Kerry. Osama bin Laden's family isn't that wealthy either. The Saudi royalty which is about half that country's population is a lot more wealthy.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
"If Bush, OSC and the Boys are going to maintain a WAR, they'd better be willing to SACRAFICE while they ask others to make the greatest scrafice."
OSC is just a guy writing a column. He is not benefiting from the war. Go ahead and rip OSC apart for his views, but lumping him together with people who actually set this war in motion and have profited from this war is really unfair.
"The Saudi royalty which is about half that country's population is a lot more wealthy."
I know it is culturally insensitive to laugh at that joke. But in my defense, it was really funny.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
A friend of mine has worked at Mc Donalds for about 6 years and hasn't gotten a raise in all that time. She earns $6.75. A lot of families in America have to work more than one part-time job to support their families. There are a couple of books on the topic... I forgot the title of one of them, but another one is called Nickeled and Dimed. It is the reality for a lot of people these days... but, it doesn't seem to get talked about a whole lot.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hey, that's what war is all about. You don't think they'd leave the money in the hands of Joe six-pack do you?
Look at your 401k for the last two years. Now look at oil futures and precious metals. Do you think the in-the-know crowd left their money in common stock going into this war? Nope. Gotta ride the wave if you're going to get ahead.
Next time know that these waves are intentionally orchestrated and the right people know what to do when they see the wave coming. That's how the almighty dollar works. It's all about building wealth and consolidating power over decades and across multiple generations. These people have been in power for a long time and will be for generations to come. The rest of us can continue to raise generations of slaves and soldiers who live from paycheck to paycheck.
With that said, I still hope one of these two rich boys wins. What have poor people ever done for me?
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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And the only hope we have for an actual redistribution of wealth lies on the shoulders of the Paris Hiltons of the world.
Just like the nobility in Europe a couple of centuries ago, their children got a bit dumber and dumber over time, and they became spendthrifts.
Just remember, every time Paris spends $20,000 on a purse, or $10,000 for champagne for her friends -- the wealth begins to flow away from the rich and back to the hands of the poor. (It moves really slowly, though...)
Now, if there were just more idiot children among the ultra-wealthy...
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hiltons, Bushes, Heinzes, and European nobility are just people who have learned to ride the waves. If you want to know who makes the waves find out who Alan Greenspan answers to. Find out who picked Bush AND Kerry to run in this campaign.
It's not Bill Gates. Bill Gates' wealth is measured in dollars. The value of those dollars is set by somebody else. The value associated with those dollars will always flow back to the people who printed those dollars and loaned them into existence.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Without joking the Saudi royal family is so big, and all of them have names like Abdullah or Mohammed, that what some royals do or say cannot constitute a government action or position. I would certainly agree that the Saudi government takes an anti-Israel stance, but then so do a number of people on this board. I'm sure there are people here who urged the Israel except Saudi Arabia's "generous" proposal to end the fighting, just leave the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights. Nevermind, that the Golan Heights have used on multiple occasions by Syria to attack Israel or that Jerusalem is contained in the West Bank. And of course the militants that insist Israel cease to exist perios will somehow agree also.
Thor, how many people actually live on minimum wage? 40% of the population is employed at McDonald's and WalMarts?
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
What do those gnomes do with the interest paid on the money we borrow from them, which they created out of thin air?
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Telp
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