posted
I think that the push to get the teaching generalized for the church is relatively new to Mormons.
I can remember when the Teachings of the Prophets program came out, everyone was all, "Ooo, now we can talk about lessons at home and have the same lesson to discuss."
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with.
Except when the missionaries find the people who want to join the church.
quote:Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
I'm sorry you feel that way - seriously. It sounds like either had a bad experience or else haven't had much experience and are reacting to stories. There are lots who have had good experiences.
quote:evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with.
Really? How do you gather this point? I don't disagree with you, knowing how much my mission meant to me, and being unable to see from the point of view of the people I converted. . .
quote: Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
I was a missionary, and never once told someone they were going to Hell. Not even Mormon hell, which at first glance, is a lot more tame than the other Christian hells (IMO). I'll bet dkw has done the same. And we're not even in the same theological sphere.
Must be the folks you hang out with, JNN.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
I don't think that was exactly what Annie was referring to, dkw, if you don't mind me saying so.
It was pointed out to me during the short time I attended LDS services that if, say -- this Kansas ward was studying Chapter 2, page 10 in this particular book on this particular Sunday in Sunday school, so was every other Mormon ward in the country. So if I went to ward in Iowa the next week, I would be picking exactly the next page.
So it isn't just that they teach the same doctrines from church to church (as other demoninations do) but they are entirely lock-step within each building as to what is taught on which day so anyone traveling never misses a piece. I can't say that I have ever seen it that tight in Protestant demoninations.
quote:In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to
Unless, of course, the evangelizing person is right about what's required for salvation and the person receiving the message accepts it. Then they've gained an awful lot, haven't they?
posted
Well, I'm going to opt out of continuing here, because it is obviously going to devolve into condescension going both ways. On one hand, it is going to look like I have a chip on my shoulder, which I don't. On the other hand, continued comments claiming Love and Caring are going to be used to describe the act of telling others where their beliefs are leading them away from Truth or, in other words, how their beliefs are Wrong. I have no desire to eight pages of what are obviously divergent belief systems. Please do me the favor of not assuming anything happened to me worth pitying me for, because I need no pity. I am not injured or angry or sad or needy. Thank you but no thank you.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Farmgirl, if the churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary (which is recommended, though not enforced, by most protestant denominations and is becoming more common in the last decade or so) not only could you go into any church of your own denomination, but any Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, UCC, United Methodist, Christian Church (disciples), or Community of Christ (formerly Reorganized Church of JC LDS) and hear the same readings.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Justa, I think I see your point. It’s not as obvious as the “you’re going to hell” push, but it could lower a person’s credibility if they claim something as unique to their religion that is actually common.
Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
DKW, just to keep in mind, Annie was describing something that happened to her, and one of the responses that she felt worked for the situation that she used. The fact is that the Mormon Church has one of the strictest regulations about what is taught when of any Christian Church. As Farmgirl said, the schedual about what chapters in the scriptures will be taught (or chapter from a Church issued manual) is very specific and always the same across the world. Of course the doctrine differences arise because we can both read a chapter in the scriptures and come up with two completely different lessons from it, but assuming we're following the schedual, we'll both be teaching the same scripture (or from the same lesson material).
If you ask Annie what the foundation of her belief is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, I garuntee you it will not be because we all follow a strict schedual in teaching. So, you know, I wouldn't get hung up on this, it's only a part of the Church that she enjoys and finds comforting. Do other Churchs have this aspect? Well obviously to some degree, they all do, if only at the level of having the same scriptures to work off of, or common goal to work towards. Do some have equal or even greater amounts of similarity in lessons taught? I don't know. I can say that Annie doesn't know of one (nor do I, for that matter). Anyways, just trying to keep people from getting ground down in an argument over something that's really not fundemental, or all that important.
posted
Justa, you were accusing people who spend a good deal of time and energy to go on missions of basically doing so for their own benefit and ignoring the harms caused to others.
You've basically stated missionaries are fooling themselves, and then taken offense at someone speculating at the reasons you might have for doing so.
quote:Farmgirl, if the churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary (which is recommended, though not enforced, by most protestant denominations and is becoming more common in the last decade or so) not only could you go into any church of your own denomination, but any Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, UCC, United Methodist, Christian Church (disciples), or Community of Christ (formerly Reorganized Church of JC LDS) and hear the same readings.
Really? That's interesting, my experience with services in other Churchs is limited, but ... well I asn't aware of this. What exactly does it constitute? I mean, is everyone giving a lesson on following Christ on the same day? Or is it just a list of lessons that should be given in a year in no particular order? Something completely different?
posted
Hobbes, I’m sure Annie has many valid reasons for preferring her own church. But when I see misinformation about other churches, I try to correct it. That’s all this is, and I would expect the same if I made statements, even in passing, that implied something untrue about another denomination or religion.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I hadn't heard of the Revised Common Lectionary. Does this mean it follows the 3-year cycle of readings the Catholic Church uses, or did it make adjustments to help bring this together?
posted
If you want to believe that about what I mean, Dagonee, I cannot stop you. This is why I've grown more hesitant about posting lately anyway. No matter what is said, especially over issues like this, someone is always going to be taking everything that does not jibe with what they say as pejorative.
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posted
"Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Heh. I'd like to know the reasoning for this odd paranoia.
Oh, a tangent that will actually be on topic!
My statement about daring to ride on elevators has to do with a phenomena we refer to as "gang save." This occurs when one finds themself in an isolated situation inwhich they is the only non-SB present. Should the rest of the group notice, they then proceed to attempt to frighten you into conversion and refuse to let you go until you've expressed what they would consider a desire to join them. This happened to me a couple of times in the dorm elevators, prompting me to start taking the stairs, even when carrying groceries or laundry. The elevators are, of course, not ideal, since the doors open every so often and a person can escape salvation. Empty parking lots and basement parties are the prefered locations.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The RCL is a three year cycle of readings, with an Old Testament Lesson, a Psalm, an Epistle lesson, and a Gospel lesson for each Sunday. (Except that during the Great 50 Days a lesson from Acts replaces the OT lesson.)
For example, this coming Sunday is the sixteenth Sunday after Pencost in year C, therefore churches that follow the RCL will be reading Jeremiah 8:18 - 9:1 or Amos 8:4-7, Psalm 79:1-9 or Psalm 113, 1 Timothy 2:1-7, and Luke 16:1-13
In addition to the continuity around the world, it’s nice because it means we can order bulletin covers that have pretty colored pictures that relate somehow to the lessons, pastors can form discussion groups with colleagues to collaborate on upcoming sermons, etc.
(Dag -- I'll try to find a link on the development of the RCL when I get back from the meeting that I am now running seriously late for.)
posted
I'm sorry to have implied anything so general. I was trying to illustrate a point about how someone could believe something entirely inflammatory about me and my religion (that Mormons are the army of the Anti-Christ) and still share it in a tame way.
I love it when people evangelize. I want to hear what people think is the one true way. After all, isn't that what every author who has ever written a book has ever done? Tolstoy wasn't being rude and assuming "Your beliefs about the war of 1812 are wrong and let me cram my version of the truth down your throat, you misguided heathen." He was sharing his interpretation of the truths and philosophies he lived by. We all evangelize whenever we converse with someone else. We tell them about the way we see things, and if we've discovered truths that make us happy, even down to the brand of dishwashing detergent that gets out those nasty stains, we share them in the hopes that they will help others.
If someone has discovered a teaching that they've interpreted to mean that I'm going to Hell and they can convey it according to the rules of civil discourse, more power to them. I appreciate the time and effort they put into the saving of my soul.
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posted
Thanks for the info on the RCL. That sounds really cool, and I'm very impressed that it seems to be so widespread.
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posted
That is fascinating, dkw. I guess the ones I have attended never used the RCL -- and I went to a lot of Methodist churches before landing where I am now. This unity of structure was actually one of the things I liked best about the LDS church when I was considering them...
posted
There are many people that don't consider catholics or mormons real Christians -- you know, like them.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Are catholics not considered as christians anymore
Hehehe... I've heard this before and it makes me giggles... considering the Roman Catholic Church is the original Christian church and mother to all the other breakaway sects...
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: Hehehe... I've heard this before and it makes me giggles... considering the Roman Catholic Church is the original Christian church and mother to all the other breakaway sects...
While I don't really have an opinion about this specific argument one way or the other, I will say that just because someone starts something, that doesn't mean that they can't move away from the goal.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think the best responce to someone when they yell, "YOu are going to HEll!!!" is to yell back, "And you are going to be reincarnated as a horny newt."
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
LOL, I don't think I'd want to get into an elevator full of people dressed as StrongBad either. I mean, that's just common sense!
Posts: 157 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
A Protestant religion is one (correct me if I'm wrong, dana) that was originally formed from another, as a "protest," most often the Catholic church.
LDS are not Protestant because the founder was not a member of another church and it did not break off from or was formed from another. The church was organized by a prophet under direction from God - there is no lineage to it, because the doctrine came from a prophet and is a restoration from heaven.
There are a couple of points:
1. The members did all come from other religions, and in the beginning most of these were Protestant. Right now, I think the majority of converts come from a Catholic background.
2. *muses* Does this mean the RLDS - Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, now Community of Christ - IS a Protestant religion?
posted
Dagonee, that is an excellent link. All the more so because it recommends a book written by someone I know IRL.
Farmgirl, it’s possible one or more of the churches you attended followed the lectionary, but you didn’t realize it. I mean, how many people, unless they’re involved in planning worship, ever think about how the readings for each week are chosen? And it’s fairly rare that you’d go to more than one church on the same Sunday, so you wouldn’t necessarily know if you were using the same readings or not. (Or, of course, it's possible that none of them did. Not everyone does.)
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The whole idea of protestantism and reformism was the belief that what existed currently as the Catholic church was a corrupted and lef astray organization, and the movements were not intended to create new churches, rather to get closer to what they thought the original teachings were.
And I know that the LDS don't consider themselves reformist or protestant - if anything they call themselves 'Restorationists'
EDIT: Kat got there first. I guess the RLDS would be Restorationist Protestants?
--
And dkw, I think a great deal of the 'evangelical' protestant churches don't follow that lectionary. I know for the fact the Assemblies of God don't, and I'm pretty sure the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't either. I know they have 'official' Sunday School curriculums, but it's more of a 'suggested material' than a set in stone "this is what must be taught". The A/G in particular is quite relaxed. As long as the ministers and teachers are conveying their proper Doctrine, then it doesn't really care how they do it. My Dad, an A/G pastor, doesn't go from a 'suggested preaching text' book, he crafts his message from whatever topic or scripture he feels led to talk about that week.
posted
“Protestant” is used in different ways by different people. Sometimes it means any Christian church that is not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, in which case it could include the LDS.
Most often it refers to a group of denominations that share a similar theology, characterized by the Protestant reformation, in which case it does not include the LDS, and includes some Anglicans, but not all. (Weird church in this sense – some of them are theologically catholic, some protestant.)
Most technically, it refers to the churches which trace their heritage through the Protestant reformation, in which case it doesn’t include Anglicans, Episcopalians, or Methodists, since the English reformation was a whole different ball of wax.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Very loose term for a group of mainly non-denominational churches that share some common theology and traits.
There is a technical use of the term to distiguish between "evangelical" and "liberal" theology, but since "liberal" in this case doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means, it's not particularly helpful.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Perhaps this isn't the right thread for this, but my knowledge of the LDS church is so limited and from what I've heard, they love to talk about it. So here is where I show my ignorance:
quote: LDS are not Protestant because the founder was not a member of another church and it did not break off from or was formed from another. The church was organized by a prophet under direction from God - there is no lineage to it, because the doctrine came from a prophet and is a restoration from heaven.
Who is the prophet?
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Baptists are Evangelical, but most aren't Pentcostal.
Pentecostal churches generally refer to specific branch that started at a revival in Hot Springs, Arkansas in about 1914 - specific denominations - like the Assemblies of God - started developing their history at that point. Pentecostal churches generally appear to have an outward focus on the gifts of the Holy Ghost, with an emphasis on speaking in tongues as the "primary initial evidence for the baptism in the Holy Ghost", a la at Pentecost.
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Anyways, just trying to keep people from getting ground down in an argument over something that's really not fundemental, or all that important. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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@ life's ironies, hypocrisies, and little infractions.
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