posted
Trevor, you're right. I think I am kind of at cross-purposes to Beverly's point, partly because I think I am not so upset about impure thoughts.
I wonder - does it work both ways? Would we expect our husbands/boyfriends to get upset if there were handsome men parading around in singlets and shorts in front of us?
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posted
I would never expect a man I'm with not to look at a pretty woman walking by. I would expect that he not stare, that he not drool, and that he, on the balance, pay more attention to me than to the scenery. But noticing and appreciating his surroundings? I have no problem with that.
And when I'm with someone, I have been known to notice other men. Discretely and briefly. It doesn't mean I appreciate the one I'm with any less, or that I'm planning on ditching him to go hit on the other guy, and I would hope he'd be self-assured enough to know that.
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posted
I wouldn't be actively happy. But I don't think I'd be offended.
Of course, if the woman in question is really cute (like Angelina Jolie cute - and preferbly equally unattainable) then I'm liable to admire them as well. So that may cloud the issue.
**
If someone on the other hand, made an active play for Tony I would be offended. In my mind the action of trying to pick him up shows no respect for our relationship. Simply dressing a certain way isn't disrespectful, in my view.
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I am not surprised if the guy I am with looks. But the woman is just passing by. If it is a woman he interacts with on a regular basis, that is a little more threatening.
I have complete trust and faith in my husband's ability to keep his marriage vows. But he is human, and an attractive, skantily clad woman makes any man think about sex. He may be struggling not to think about it, but the temptation is there and neither of us appreciate it.
It is my personal opinion that a woman dressing modestly (though flattering and lovely are fine) is showing respect to the men and women around her. I feel it is her responsibility to uplift others around her, not distracting them with sex. I understand that many others don't feel that way--both men and women. Women like to make men think of sex. Or they don't realize how men's minds work. Men enjoy being made to think of sex.
But that sort of behavior encroaches upon me and others who are of like-mind. I think it is disrespectful. The two mindsets are at an irresolvable impass. So if I have to put up with the thoughts you make my husband struggle not to think, you have to deal with me not liking the way you dress.
Yes, then we have Telperion who is lusting after my husband. Of course, that is less threatening to either of us. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: But he is human, and an attractive, skantily clad woman makes any man think about sex. He may be struggling not to think about it, but the temptation is there and neither of us appreciate it.
I have difficulty wrapping my mind around the idea that it's someone else's job to help me be pious. It's...hubris to me. I don't know how else to say it. It's an egotistical assumption that people should live as I think they should. It's childish.
I can understand finding things other people wear to be 'ugly' or 'bad'. This is a natural outgrowth of everyone being different. Obviously, not everyone is going to have my tastes.
If people are unique, and different, it seems to me that it is, therefore, illogical to actually get upset when people don't conform to my sense of fashion.
But the idea that I should get upset because someone isn't conforming to rules that *I* chose to put on *myself* and that *I* choose to live by is really beyond belief.
posted
See, I don't think the two mindsets are necessarily at an irresolvable impass. I think with a little common sense they can get along just fine.
Like I said before, there are clothes that I would consider fine for going out with my friends but not work or school appropriate. Many, if not most, workplaces and schools have dresscodes to deal with that issue, although as someone said they don't always enforce them. Still, let's leave those places out of the discussion.
I, like dabbler, have clothes that I only wear to certain clubs. those clubs are over-18, and I doubt anyone who believes people should dress modestly would frequent them. Even if you lived in my state, beverly, I would not expect to see you or mph there. So again we don't have a problem.
There are clothes that I find acceptable to wear in public just hanging out that you probably wouldn't like. You might pass me on the street dressed that way. Here is our biggest potential problem.
If I am going into a situation where I'm meeting a group of people where I know some of them have different value systems than me, I would not wear anything I thought they might find offensive. Take KamaCon as an example. I, like most people, wore shorts or jeans and t-shirts. A skirt when we went out dancing, but it was almost knee-length, which I think most people would find reasonable.
My point is, no matter where you stand on this issue, you have to dress appropriately for the occasion. If I'm coming to dinner at your house, I should not wear something I know you would find offensive. But if you pass me on the street, I would appreciate you not brand me based on how I'm dressed.
(That doesn't mean you have to like it. I'd just rather no one call me a slut for it.)
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Storm, it bothers *me* because I'm "jealous". It bother's *Porter* because he is trying to be pious. There is a difference.
Sometimes I think I am the one of the only people in the world who doesn't like my significant other thinking about sex when looking at other women.
Also, if a guy walks by scantily clad, I may admire him, but I don't instinctively think of sex. I realize that other women might, but I don't.
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ElJay, you are correct that you and I are not at an impasse. If you are not dressing like that around my husband, there is no problem. You dress in a certain way for clubs, and I dress in a certain way when I am trying to be sexy for him. If someone had a problem with me dressing sexy for my husband, I would be annoyed too.
If you passed us on the street, I am not one who would think of you as a slut for dressing that way--as I explained above. I would simply think that you were dressed in a way to make men think of sex.
posted
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I wear my low-rise jeans and thong panties, I'm dressing to look slutty.
Heh, that said, looking good (I point to Jane) doesn't mean you're a slut. I have a beautiful friend who went to a strict Indian-Christian church, and was told off as a slut for wearing a sweater. Because it was tight enough to show off her figure, she was ostracized from the church and condemned as a slut for "tempting" the other women's husbands.
Somehow I don't hold her as the villain here. Nor would I hold an attractive teenager in a tube top responsible for MPH's thoughts. Blaming the woman for being too sexy for a man to control himself leads directly to a) excusing the man for raping her, and b) widespread distribution of burqas.
If a girl looks good in low-rise jeans, good for her -- her sexuality's nothing to be ashamed of, and if she wants to look gorgeous walking down the street, more power to her. It doesn't mean her curves are all she has to offer, nor that she's a slut for having them.
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posted
To be honest, if a woman decided to dress in "slutwear" and a husband saw her and started drooling and going into "zombie - lust" mode...the onus doesn't lie heavily on the woman, imo. It's the man getting sexually aroused.
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posted
Heck, I wear things tight enough to "show off" my figure by some people's standards. There is no strict line we can draw, especially when some women are far sexier than others, but there is a difference between wearing a sweater and wearing a tube top.
I think a scantily clad woman is responsible for making it harder for men not to think about sex. Men are still responsible for how they act on their thoughts. Not only do they have control over whether or not they touch or rape her, but they also have the control over whether they make comments or oogle her. They don't have the control not to have sex come to the brain (either brain) or to not look once. This is an instinctive response for a heterosexual man. Dressing skankily increases that response just as being born attractive does. One the woman has control over the other she doesn't.
I am not going to get mad at a woman for being born drop-dead-gorgeous, but I will be annoyed when she flaunts her body to the extent that the straight men around her can't keep sex of the mind. She doesn't have to do that--it is her choice. And the choice effects me.
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quote: To be honest, if a woman decided to dress in "slutwear" and a husband saw her and started drooling and going into "zombie - lust" mode...the onus doesn't lie heavily on the woman, imo. It's the man getting sexually aroused.
My question is, can a heterosexual man *not* be aroused by that? Can a woman choose not to dress that way? Which one has more choice over what is happening? They have the responsibility.
Again, this isn't an issue for women who don't mind their husband feeling that way or men who don't mind being aroused by scantily clad women. But there are those who feel differently. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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How? How does it effect you? By your own admission, Porter isn't going to act on his desires, so how does it effect you?
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quote: I think a scantily clad woman is responsible for making it harder for men not to think about sex.
Ok, but is it really her responsibility in the first place? She's free to act however she wants, and however men respond is their choice as well. I do agree, though, that it shows no respect to you and your husband's relationship for a woman to flaunt herself in front of him. In my opinion that is in poor taste. I'm sure you and your husband would have better taste and respond to such actions gracefully. I guess all men can't be expected to act so politely, but if they are rude or vulgar towards that woman, I'd say she had it coming to her. While she may NOT in fact be a "slut", her clothing might suggest to men otherwise. That said, I've had to deal with guys hitting on me because of an outfit I wore, but because I chose to dress in a certain manner, I can't really blame them. I think a lot of women (and I've fallen into this category) send mixed (and often unintentional) signals with the clothing they wear. I still don't think it's fair to classify them as "slutty", though...
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posted
I believe bev pointed out that she's never actually said people who dress this way are sluts. She doesn't like it, but isn't labeling. I'm fine with that.
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quote: My question is, can a heterosexual man *not* be aroused by that? Can a woman choose not to dress that way? Which one has more choice over what is happening? They have the responsibility.
Men are aroused by good looking women no matter what they wear.
If a man can't work around being aroused by a woman, then he is immature.
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posted
I say again, female sexuality is nothing to be ashamed of. If a man's too weak to keep his mind off sex while talking to an a woman in a tight shirt, that's his problem, not hers.
I know very few men this weak, and I'd personally rather have them steadily adjusted to female sexuality with public views of an abdomen than suppressing his desires by covering up women, then losing control when he sees bare shoulders.
Also, I'm not sure if you realize how heavily you're relying on a tired stereotype. You aren't giving us heterosexual men nearly enough credit -- if I see an attractive woman in a miniskirt, I may give her a once-over to appreciate her beauty, but I'm certainly capable of keeping her off my mind if I have more important things to think about. It is not the woman's responsibility to keep me from thinking about sex. Such thinking leads directly to such creatures as the burqa, existing precisely because many Arab cultures are too ignorant or primitive to recognize that if the man thinks unclean sexual thoughts because he's seen her ankle, it's his responsibility to control himself, not hers.
As a final note, what is "dressing skankily"? If a woman wears tight clothing, is she a skank (or dressing like one)? If I wear a tight shirt or wifebeater, are you going to call me a skank? If my friend wears a tight sweater to church, is she a skank? (Obviously, she is to some people.) I'd be interested in knowing how you define the term -- and in knowing if you're willing to recognize that the term varies wildly from culture to culture, and in none of them does the responsibility to control the male libido rest upon the women's clothing.
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quote: I say again, female sexuality is nothing to be ashamed of. If a man's too weak to keep his mind off sex while talking to an a woman in a tight shirt, that's his problem, not hers.
I totally agree. We men do have control over how much attention we give our desire.
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The idea that men can't help but think about sex is... rather sexist. I know its popular to think that, but we can control ourselves, and usually do. I had a five hour lab today. My lab partner is an attractive russian girl (which for me is a turn on). I only thought of her sexually maybe once in that five hour period, and it was just a brief flash when we were crowded into a small space for part of the lab, and her ass brushed against me. I think that is a justifiable reason to think about sex, thanks
The idea that men are "tempted" by women is one that was used a lot in the middle ages to repress women, keep them closed off from the rest of society. I think its a GOOD thing that this idea is no longer prevalent, and that its being beaten down enough so that women can wear sexy clothing in public is a sign of growing women's equality.
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posted
Heh, aw, I'd take the compliments more to heart if I didn't know you were giving them to me just to get in these thong panties of mine.
Lookin' good.
It goes without saying that Stormie and Eljay speak my sentiments exactly. Jane has, too, except for one sentence I'll take exception to:
quote:I'm sure you and your husband would have better taste and respond to such actions gracefully. I guess all men can't be expected to act so politely, but if they are rude or vulgar towards that woman, I'd say she had it coming to her.
If a woman dresses provocatively, she can expect to get hit on. But being rude or vulgar (or insulting or harassing or forceful) isn't excused in any way by the woman's appearance.
Or maybe I just have different courtship rituals than those of Lousiana men.
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quote: But being rude or vulgar (or insulting or harassing or forceful) isn't excused in any way by the woman's appearance.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Eddie, I'm not by any means excusing it. I don't think such behavior is excusable in any case...I'm just saying that she shouldn't be surprised when it happens.
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posted
Damn. And here I was going to learn how to whistle just in hopes of an eventual trip to New Orleans...
So we're in full agreement? You're hot and have no responsibility to hide yourself for my sake? To the nudist colony! You bring ElJay, I'll bring the henna paint.
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quote: PSI, you think it's hard to believe that Avadaru's guy friends can appreciate her beauty no matter what she's wearing?
I'll admit that I was thinking of this more along the lines of her guy friends being *attracted* to her no matter what she was wearing, not just thinking that she looks nice. I think most guys would say they are probably more attracted to their ladies (at least on a superficial level) when they are dressed more provocatively. That said, I was pretty much joking. Hence the winky smily.
And I'm not sure you could quote me as saying that men should only care about personality or whatever you said. It's more likely I said something like women should care more about feeling confident and comfortable then about what society says she should wear.
edit: Sorry, I had to rephrase. It wasn't making sense to me.
posted
I also enjoy women in scantily clad clothing. The words "yummy" have entered my mind when a particularly attractive woman passes by on more than one occasion. Ask me what that woman looked like 5 seconds later and I won't be able to tell you. It's not like "thinking about sex" means you launch into some long, convoluted sexual fantasy that forces you to make your way to the nearest public restroom and the cleaning staff be damned. It's pretty much an almost unregistered blip.
[ September 22, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
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quote: Ok, but is it really her responsibility in the first place?
Just wanted to say that where someone has power they have responsibility. That does not mean that a woman always has to be worried about some guy thinking dirty thoughts about her. If a guy is losing control of himself over a woman who's not really doing anything to deserve it that's not a function of the woman's power, but rather of function of the man's lack of willpower. However, if a woman has an area that she controls specifically to exert power, then she is partially responsible for the outcome.
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posted
I was kidding. To an extent. I've already stated that I make sure I wear clothing appropriate to the situations I expect to find myself in, if I hadn't figured out by now how to do that with relatively little thought involved I'd probably never leave the house.
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quote: The idea that men can't help but think about sex is... rather sexist. I know its popular to think that, but we can control ourselves, and usually do. I had a five hour lab today. My lab partner is an attractive russian girl (which for me is a turn on). I only thought of her sexually maybe once in that five hour period, and it was just a brief flash when we were crowded into a small space for part of the lab, and her ass brushed against me. I think that is a justifiable reason to think about sex, thanks
I appreciate the insight. I am (admittedly) not a man and therefore do not understand men all that well. I realize I may not have an accurate picture of what goes on in men's minds. I actually believe my husband *can* help thinking about sex, but I don't like the idea of women doing something that they are fully in control of that makes it harder for him. That isn't fair to him.
quote: The idea that men are "tempted" by women is one that was used a lot in the middle ages to repress women, keep them closed off from the rest of society. I think its a GOOD thing that this idea is no longer prevalent, and that its being beaten down enough so that women can wear sexy clothing in public is a sign of growing women's equality.
Actually, my impression was that the excuse most commonly used was that because of Eve and her "trechery", all women are evil and sensuous and deep down they are all temptresses. This is laughable. It seems to be similar to the reasoning behind blaming a woman when a man rapes her. It is an ugly thing and I do not approve of it.
That being said, I think it very telling that men do not attempt to dress the way women do. If they thought it would get them more sex, they would do it in a heartbeat--so I guess it doesn't work. But women do it because it *does* work. This is not sexism, this is reality.
Women are more free to wear whatever they want and that is a sign of freedom. I am saying they should use their choice and choose to dress modestly in public. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Men are aroused by good looking women no matter what they wear.
Yup. But a good looking woman can't help being good looking. You can't blame someone for something that isn't their fault. How the dress is a different matter.
quote: If a man can't work around being aroused by a woman, then he is immature.
I'm not sure what you mean by "work around". If you mean avoiding raping, touching, making inappropriate comments or oogling, I agree. But I think a woman who dresses so that it is very difficult for men not to think about sex is... well I repeat myself.
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quote: How? How does it effect you? By your own admission, Porter isn't going to act on his desires, so how does it effect you?
Maybe if I weren't insecure at all in myself, it wouldn't bother me at all. I don't know, I have never been completely without insecurity. I guess this sort of thing doesn't bother some women at all.
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posted
Your argument rests on the idea that women dressing provactively arouses men. If this is, in fact, not true--if, in fact, men are aroused regardless of what women wear, then this undermines your argument, I think.
When I say workaround, I mean to either make those thoughts stop completely or to push them to the back of his mind such that they are inconsequential. It's very difficult to do things if you can't stop thinking about sex, Bev.
Let me also add that there is definitely a factor of newness to arousal. Once you get to know someone, or are used to seeing something, then the level of arousal goes down. I think this is the same principle a nudist colony works on.
Bev, I understand what you're saying. Of course everyone wants their true love to only think of them and not be aroused by anyone else. I think,though, that the best we can hope for (and given the number of classless people out there, it is often just that, a hope) is that they not let us know when they are aroused by someone else and that their desire for us because of who we are as individuals far, far, far outstrips whatever aimless, fleeting ghosts of thought drift through their mind in the presence of other people.
quote: I also enjoy women in scantily clad clothing. The words "yummy" have entered my mind when a particularly attractive woman passes by on more than one occasion. Ask me what that woman looked like 5 seconds later and I won't be able to tell you. It's not like "thinking about sex" means you launch into some long, convoluted sexual fantasy that forces you to make your way to the nearest public restroom and the cleaning staff be damned. It's pretty much an almost unregistered blip.
BTL, this isn't surprising since it is something men have to deal with on a fairly regular basis. Maybe something like that happens when a boy is first going through puberty, but repitition makes the impact less over time. The above scenario would be silly for a grown man accustomed to these things. It becomes more of a problem, though when this is someone you are in frequent contact with.
I still find women dressing scantily rude public behavior. Here is an extreme example: My husband and I are out walking someplace, and a woman walks by and exposes herself in front of both of us. Would anyone here consider that rude? It is an exaggeration, but that is a little how I feel when women dress scantily in public.
This begs the question of nudist colonies or tribal cultures where women going topless is the norm. Once upon a time the sight of a woman's ankle was scandelous. It all has to do with the culture and society you live in. It may be that if everyone dressed scantily (or were nude) all the time the visual effects on men would be diminished because of how common it is.
But that is not the society that we live in, so it has a very real effect--particularly for those who are not accustomed to seeking such things out. You may think such people are wrong, backwards, or even a menace to society. Those people, on the other hand, are displeased by the immodesty of women. There is the impasse I speak of.
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posted
First of all, I agree with beverly and PSI on this (which shocks no one, I am sure).
Secondly,
quote: Let me also add that there is definitely a factor of newness to arousal. Once you get to know someone, or are used to seeing something, then the level of arousal goes down. I think this is the same principle a nudist colony works on.
Some of us -- me, f'rinstance -- believe that's a crying shame. My (theoretical) husband getting used to scantily-clad women means that me being scantily-clad means that much less.
The fact that I do not casually touch men makes each touch mean that much more. And while clearly many disagree, I happen to think that's a good thing.
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quote: I think most guys would say they are probably more attracted to their ladies (at least on a superficial level) when they are dressed more provocatively.
This isn't necessarily true. I know that Tony finds me most attractive when I am dressed elegantly - think more Audrey Hepburn then Pamela Anderson.
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posted
I didn't include evening wear because that wasn't mentioned in the original paragraph. It was a comparison between jeans/t-shirts and miniskirts/tubetops. (BTW, tube tops are way ugly.)
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posted
PSI beat me too it. Tube tops are just plain ugly! I mean, the whole thing is designed to pressure you into the shape of a cylinder! Cylinders aren't sexy.
posted
To put a spin on this argument, what about the Islamic traditions of making women wear burkhas and only leave the house in the company of men from that house?
How does that impact or otherwise affect the discussions in this thread?
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Tube tops are just plain ugly! I mean, the whole thing is designed to pressure you into the shape of a cylinder! Cylinders aren't sexy. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
