I was replying to Olivia. But as far as your suggest, I think that if the couple was so removed from each other that they can't even communicate and need a mediator for this, then I would say they need a counselor anyway.
Elizabeth and maui babe:
I was comparing the removing of ovaries to the removing of testicles, not to a vasectomy. My point was that since THAT particular issue is more sensitive with men than women, it is pretty natural that the snip/tube tie issue would be similarly sensitive to many men.
I think that men value their testicles and adjoining parts more than women value their ovaries and adjoining parts, and I don't think this difference in valuation is completely irrational.
I don't think it is just an issue of someone's security about their manhood.
Which brings us to mph and his statement about his big toe vs his nether region. What if it was an eye vs. the nether region? The heart, lung, or liver vs the nether region? The brain?
I know it is a wierd question, but all risks being equal, which part of you being operated on would bother you the most?
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think that part of the problem is that men have spent their entire lives protecting that part of their anatomy. The idea of a needle or a knife down there.....
<---- too squicked out to continue.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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1. I don't think it's his "duty", but I would wonder what kind of man I'd chosen if he could watch me give birth and then still refuse to get a vasectomy after we'd both decided enough was enough.
2. "keeping his options open" as the reason for not wanting to have a vasectomy would be a HUGE red flag for the quality of the marriage. I'd start seriously thinking about getting a counselor. It's clear that if he's thinking about his next wife, he doesn't have a lot of confidence about keeping his current one. I'd try to stay away from taking it personally, and look at it as a sign of serious marriage problems.
3. As for withholding sex, I think that totally depends upon what you believe your responsibilities are in marriage. The way my marriage works, the answer would be "no, that's not a reasonable way to handle it", but then, when we (me, really) decided we were done having babies, he didn't balk at getting the vasectomy. By the same token, he also doesn't balk at sacrificing almost anything else if he thinks it would make me happy. If he'd said "No way", I'd have had an IUD implanted and hoped for the best.
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posted
I had my vasectomy in 96. I had it done right before Christmas so I could go back to work on Jan 2. Unfortunately, I was one of those rare cases with complications. The doctor couldn't find the vas on one side so he had to dig around a lot, and ended up causing some damage. Damage that expressed itself as two lemon-sized hematomas in my groin. I was on heavy-duty pain meds for four weeks. It still hurts to think about it.
Even so, I'm glad I did it. The worst thing was trying to explain to my boss (a woman, and not from America) why I was out sick for so long.
Posts: 173 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
If you're considering vasectomy, assume that its permanent. While it may be reversible there are no guarantees, the odds are against it, and you'll have regrets afterwards that you should have dealt with before the operation.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:The state (Alabama) will snip him for free but not her.
Man -- this really surprised me in your post. Many years ago right after my third child was born, my then-husband and I wanted one of us to get snipped because he was out of work, and we already had more kids than originally planned, etc. etc. We were on Medicaid at the time (no health insurance). But they would only pay for ME to have it done, not him. I thought that was ridiculous -- why would a state agency program pay for only one and not the other?
And my doctor at the time recommended that I NOT have it done due to other health problems I was having at the time. We never came up with the money. We succeeded in not having more children -- but it really made me wonder how much government is sincere about trying to get people out of poverty if they won't agree to paying for requested sterilization. I mean -- they will pay for you to have more and more babies, but not for this?
quote:2. "keeping his options open" as the reason for not wanting to have a vasectomy would be a HUGE red flag for the quality of the marriage. I'd start seriously thinking about getting a counselor. It's clear that if he's thinking about his next wife, he doesn't have a lot of confidence about keeping his current one. I'd try to stay away from taking it personally, and look at it as a sign of serious marriage problems.
I want to comment on this particular issue regarding vassectomy. Whenever I've seen discussions like this, the argument always comes up that a man may want to "keep his options open."
The assumption seems to be that it is the woman who doesn't want any more children, not that the couple has decided they have had enough children. Sometimes, it is true that the woman does not want to go through pregnancy and birth again (or should not, for health reasons), but sometimes, it's just that they've decided two or three children are enough. Sometimes it's for financial reasons, and the desire to give their kids the best opportunities possible.
The idea that a man is responsible for however many children he reproduces (both financially, and hopefully in other ways, too), whether he stays with his wife, or goes on to re-marry and have more children, never seems to come up.
I don't really feel as though I am making myself that clear, but maybe someone can sort through what I've said, and figure out the message here.
[ September 24, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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posted
I *think* I see what you mean Ela. I know if my dh and I divorced, and he re-married, he would have to marry a rich woman or make a major change in his work attitude to support our kids and raise even one more.
Yes- the system is way, way broken.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I would agree that if there were no other influences on the situation, the man should absolutley be the one to be sterlizied, due to the way the two procedures compare. I know that I would much rather choose to undergo it myself than force anything that ... well ... terrible (all surgery freaks the heck out of me, and is thus, terrible ) on my wife.
A few things though, one is that if the wife decides she doesn't want kids (more kids) and the husband doesn't agree, it should not be the husbands job to go out and get snipped, nor should it be the wife's job to be sterlizied either. If the two don't agree on something this important, now is not the time to be forcing something like this on either one! It should always be a joint desicion, and then, when that join desicion is reached it shouldn't come down to who wanted it first, but who is the best person to do it. It's not about one vs. the other, it should be about the couple acting together, choosing together, or perhaps I'm just missing the whole point of marriage. In other words, if the wife wants to stop having children and the husband doesn't at first, but then later comes to agreement with his wife about it, it shouldn't be forced on the wife to get it done just because she wanted it done, it's now something both of them agree is right, and who wanted what win is just a way of dividing a marriage. The same goes the other way around of course, if the husband wants to stop, then it shouldn't fall to him because he was the one who wanted it.
Second point is that though the man is a better canidate for this due to the comparison of the prcoedures, I don't think it's fair to say he always has to do it or he's just uncompassionate and doesn't really love his wife. Tube-tying is a much more serious process, absoltuley, and much more can go wrong with it. So I would hope (though I'm sure it's not true) that on average men do get sterlizied more than woman do in these situations. But why should we discount his fear just because it's irrational? Will the lack of logical basis some how make the whole experience less painful and emotionally damaging for him? I would say that at some point the desire not to do it (unmatched by an equal desire not to do it by the woman) would outweigh the difference in procedures.
When is this point reached? I have no idea, and I have no desire to try and figure out some level of fear and pain that equates with the difference in procedure, but I would argue that it does exist.
posted
It's not that I mind killing threads so much as that I think I said something of at least a kind of value... and so I'm going to bump this once and then let it die as it will.
posted
If you don't want children, and you don't want to get one of these operations, then why not just not have sex?
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: If you don't want children, and you don't want to get one of these operations, then why not just not have sex?
Answer: Because I like to have sex? Is that the right answer?
I view a vasectomy as like James Bonds' Licence to Kill, but in a frolicking kind of way. However, personally, I doubt I will ever have one done. To those that do, that is their own business.
As to whose duty it is?
What if I perform my duty without my wife knowing? Is that a good thing? To call a vasectomy a duty is hard for me to understand. I would hope a decision like that is a mutual one between a husband and wife. As for a duty for a man to undergo or for a woman's duty to undergo tubal ligation, I cannot call it a duty more than a choice.
A duty implies that I should not procreate!
I must do my duty and prevent my sperm from joining with an egg and resulting in offspring BEFORE it is too late!
I do not mean to ridicule the word "duty" or its use, I am just over-analyzing, I suppose.
Posts: 1870 | Registered: Mar 2003
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After my second child I realized that hormonal birth control had not been successful in preventing pregnancies for me, and my husband and I did not want to have any more children, because I personally could not handle the post-partum depression. I asked him:
"Do you want me to get my tubes tied?"
He considered it carefully, and then said that he did.
I asked him:
"Would it make you feel unmanly to get a vasectomy?"
He said that it would. It was very hard for him to admit that to me, and I didn't question it. A tubal ligation didn't seem to be "defeminizing" myself so I had it done. We're both happy with the decision.
I honestly can't understand why my husband would feel unmanly after the two children he made despite the birth control...it's obvious to me that he's able to procreate. But if he feels that way, it's okay. He's totally sensitive to me in every other situation; who am I to complain?
Also, my insurance only covers *my* sterilization, and if that's not stupid I don't know what is.
/two cents
Note: Jes would have been fine with it if I had not wanted to get my tubes tied. It wasn't like he *expected* me to just because he didn't want to. I offered.
Second Note: If I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have had it done. There are side-effects, just let me point that out.
posted
"I honestly can't understand why my husband would feel unmanly after the two children he made despite the birth control..."
Interesting point. Many men I know, whose wives could not get pregnant, were relieved when they found out that it was "not them," or devastated to know it was.
So what is the deal with that? Are we still thinking that a man's virility is linked to his sperm count? It seems so silly, but I know it is a real thing for many men.
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posted
Seriously, after I get medical insurance, I'll be first in line for the scalpel. Snip, snip and all that!
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I was not trying to be a pain, PSIT, I was just using a different definition. It's amazing how sly words can be, isn't it?
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Seriously, though, it is a sad thing that a man feels somehow less manly for not having a high sperm count.
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posted
Yes. I feel like it is obvious that to some degree, sperm count is something guys worry about from a relatively young age, meaning will they be able to get a woman pregnant? But once it's happened a couple of times it doesn't just go away. They have attached alot of importance to the ability, and it makes sense. After all, it's devastating to a woman to be unable to get pregnant, and some women feel unwomanly after a tubal.
Women are less likely to feel *unwomanly* after a tubal because they continue to be mothers afterward, assuming they have kids already.
But for a man, it may, subconsciously, feel like his "role" as the father is over once conception has occured. Intellectually he knows that he's got to be Daddy, but biologically his part is pretty much diminished at that point.
So a woman's future as a mother isn't threatened by the surgery, but perhaps men feel like their potential fatherness is?
Not to say that it's not natural to feel fatherly to your kids, but it's generally not a strong physical bond.
And if it's not too nosy, what side effects from the tubal? I ahve heard other women say the same thing.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I used to have slight cramps in on side or the other during ovulation, and it would travel down the tube.
Now, it stays exactly at the site of the clamp, and it's very painful, as in it rivals my fairly considerable PMS cramps. Like, I'm down for the day, and I have a high pain tolerance.
Also, my periods come more often and last longer. Which may or may not be related to the tubal, since I'm comparing it to the cramps I had before I got pregnant with my kids.
But the pain is definitely related. That's my only real complaint, but it's painful enough that I would have waited until Jes was willing to have a vasectomy if I had known about it.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: I feel like it is obvious that to some degree, sperm count is something guys worry about from a relatively young age,
Isn't this ironic? I mean, all through adolescence, fear grips a young man wondering if he should have sex. Fear, or course, of getting a girl pregnant. Then once a man is married, he worries that his sperm count might not be sufficient to procreate and father a child.
This is all the proof I need that Satan exists.
On a side note, my wife and I tried for 4 years to have another child. She has endometriosis, and my sperm count was checked and found to be normal, just barely (strikingly similar to my sanity). I told her I would meet her at a bar unexpectedly, get her drunk, go back to her place and um...(you know)...and then split. Of course I would tell her I would call her and then I wouldn't. So naturally, in about a month, I would hear the shocking news that I got her pregnant.
But in the end, we went to a fertility clinic and had another major workup done. Our first treatment was set for a Monday, and she found out the Friday before our appointment that she was pregnant. I like to think I just work better under pressure.
quote: Technically, a man's virility is linked to sperm count.
I agree by definition, but virility and sperm count have nothing to do with the desire to copulate.
And that is all the evidence I need that there is a Heaven...
Edited for severely brain-damaged early-morning typos...
quote:Interesting point. Many men I know, whose wives could not get pregnant, were relieved when they found out that it was "not them," or devastated to know it was.
So what is the deal with that? Are we still thinking that a man's virility is linked to his sperm count? It seems so silly, but I know it is a real thing for many men.
While it for some may be a question of "virility" and "manliness", I believe there are more fundamental reasons for such a reaction, most having to do with the natural insecurities plagueing both sexes. It is intrinsic to a relationsship that the only part whose feelings can be totally known is your own. The partner with whom the difficulty originates is at a disadvatage since -- however sure you are of your love for each other -- it is so easy to listen to the little nagging voice and wonder whether not this at least at some level means that your spouse is questioning your relationsship. Being the comforter in this kind of situation places you in a position of power since you need not doubt your own assurances that you will stand by your love whatever happens. And that is ever so much easier.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: But for a man, it may, subconsciously, feel like his "role" as the father is over once conception has occured. Intellectually he knows that he's got to be Daddy, but biologically his part is pretty much diminished at that point.
. . .
Not to say that it's not natural to feel fatherly to your kids, but it's generally not a strong physical bond.
posted
Me, too. I think part of the problem is that a lot of bonding happens very early on when caring for the infant. Too many fathers don't participate in the feeding, diaper-changing, rocking to sleep, and general care of newborns.
Some of this is probably fear. Some of this is probably holdover attitudes by fathers that taking care of the baby is the mother's job. Some of it is also caused by the mothers being unwilling to really turn over some care all the way to the father.
One book I read reccomended the mother go out and leave the newborn entirely in the father's care as soon as the mother is up to it physically, making sure he knows about feeding, diapering, etc. This tells the father he is trusted by the mother and that he can actually do this, teaches the mother that the baby will survive the father's care even if it's not quite what the mother would do, and makes the father not hand the baby back as soon as s/he starts fussing.
Not that this will be an issue for me. Eve will probably have to make me give the baby back.
posted
"Me, too. I think part of the problem is that a lot of bonding happens very early on when caring for the infant. Too many fathers don't participate in the feeding, diaper-changing, rocking to sleep, and general care of newborns."
My husband did this from the start. I am getting all teary thinking about the forty-minute diaper changes with my daughter, when they would just play with all her little toys, and the mirror. She was always happy on the changing table, so that is where they bonded.
He stayed home with the kids for a few years, either alone, or with both of us, because he had a home business. He bonded immediately, and the kids go to him now, at eight and ten, as soon as they do to me, if not sooner.
Being a man is about being able to let go and show all the love that is in your heart, even though people have told you you should play it cool.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But for a man, it may, subconsciously, feel like his "role" as the father is over once conception has occured. Intellectually he knows that he's got to be Daddy, but biologically his part is pretty much diminished at that point.
. . .
Not to say that it's not natural to feel fatherly to your kids, but it's generally not a strong physical bond.
quote:I think part of the problem is that a lot of bonding happens very early on when caring for the infant. Too many fathers don't participate in the feeding, diaper-changing, rocking to sleep, and general care of newborns... Not that this will be an issue for me. Eve will probably have to make me give the baby back.
Good for you, dag.
With both my kids, my husband did all of this except the feeding part, since I was breastfeeding. He took the first week off from work after the births of both my children, and did all the diaper changes and baths, and walked the babies around the house and chattered to them when they were fussy. He continued doing all the baths for the children, as well as many diaper changes, and walking and rocking babies, even after he returned to work. Bathtime for the kids was "his job" for years, till they were old enough to bath without supervision.
It makes me happy that he was always, and still is, so involved with his children, and makes me sad that a father would think his involvement is "less" after the donation of a sperm.
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posted
My husband does everything but feed too, and takes three weeks off after each birth. He is very good with a colicky baby and saved my sanity some nights ( he has a "colicky baby dance"). He doesn't get why a father wouldn't do all that.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote: But for a man, it may, subconsciously, feel like his "role" as the father is over once conception has occured. Intellectually he knows that he's got to be Daddy, but biologically his part is pretty much diminished at that point.
. . .
Not to say that it's not natural to feel fatherly to your kids, but it's generally not a strong physical bond.
"This makes me sad."
"Me too, Icky."
Warning: This post sounds defensive, but I'm not really trying to defend myself.
I really couldn't let this go...there's so much more I want to say. First of all, let's make it very clear that I see an important need for a father in a child's life. I'm not minimizing his role or anything. Hopefully a good father feels a strong bond with his child, especially in a protective sense.
But I would not be surprised to find out that many men feel like the most important part of being a father is the "sperm donation". I mean, consider the fact that society has hammered into them again and again that single mothers can do just fine without a *man* to help them, and that kids in single-parent families grow up well-adjusted and happy. I mean, that's all well and good for building up single mothers and giving them something to strive for, but how does it make the men feel? Useless? Worthless in the family, for anything more than bringing home the bread so mom can stay home with the kids if she wants?
I don't see what else can be expected.
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