Mike, this stuff is nowhere near as bad as Terry Goodkind's stuff, but Feist does lose points by setting so many stories in the same universe, with the same characters.
My favorite books of the series were the first two books set on Tsurrananananaheyheyheywhattheheckisitcalled. You know, with Mara whatserface? Those were actively quite good. The third one was pretty awful, though. Like the story was over, but any story must be told in three or more books . . . just two is unacceptable. So they throught together one more book, and manipulated our emotions to involve us in the story, because there was no natural motivation for us to care this time.
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I agree about Feist, Icarus. Another reason I don't like his work as much as I otherwise wood is that I've never felt like he was really invested in his characters. I wasn't surprised when he said as much in an online interview/chat thingie in which he and George R. R. Martin were fielding questions from the masses.
Anybody read Jack Whyte's Arthurian books? I'm trying to get my hands on the first one. I found the second at a used bookstore for next to nothing, but no one seems to carry the first one. I've found a library in my area that has it though, so I'll be checking it out next time I make it that way.
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Last night, Dan and I finished America: The Book by Jon Stewart. It was wonderful.
We're also reading the second Harry Potter book (Chamber of Secrets) - his first time, my second.
On my own, I started The Map That Changed the World by Simon Winchester a couple months ago, but I've not gotten very far. I thought it would be a bit more engaging than it is. I'll likely finish it eventually, though, because I'm a nerd and happen to really like maps and geology.
I also started Q by Luther Blissett. I'm incredibly confused, though, as it's non-linear and I'm bad with remember dates, so I keep getting my chronology mixed up, and I haven't even learned the narrator's name yet - 12 chapters in! I think I'm going to have to start over. *sigh*
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I am unable to read fiction again. This hurts. it happened after Sean Russell's second high fantasy novel, and it just happened after "Song of Ice and Fire."
I read...sigh...math textbooks.
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The post I am writing in response to the "What are you reading RIGHT NOW?" thread on hatrack.... in fact, this very phrase... nay even this exact flutzpah!
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Icky, any tin=me you want some feedback on fantasy novels let me know.
I liked Feist's books at first, but I stopped reading them 3 books ago because they all started to look alike.
The series I really liked from him was the Empire series that you referred to earlier. Those were set in Kelwan, and I thought he did a great job with Janny Wurts on them....better than her own books IMO. Although I DID like Stormwarden. by her years ago.
I have over 700 fantasy books now, most of them in paperback, although I have begun collecting my favorite authors in hardcover now. I had more books, but the Army lost 2-3 boxes of them years ago when I was shipped to my first duty post....and there were 75-100 books in each box. The overall total is about the same, but if I had not lost those I would be well over 1000 by now.
I read a lot, in case you didn't figure that out by now...
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Hunter's Oath, by Michelle West. Picked at random from the used book store. Also in the middle of Walking With the Devil and Salamander, but I wasn't in the mood for either of those tonight.
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They didn't have any copies of the most recent Chicago Manual of Style, which is the style I prefer, but I really should know AP better since it seems to be the preferred style these days. I'll have to get the CMOS some other time.
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quote: The series I really liked from him was the Empire series that you referred to earlier. Those were set in Kelwan, and I thought he did a great job with Janny Wurts on them....better than her own books IMO. Although I DID like Stormwarden. by her years ago.
I really liked Daughter of Empire, until the end when all of a sudden this amazingly well-wrought "alien" world gets trashed by the authors introducing modern western ideals onto the culture. I thought I had finally found good fantasy in a unique setting, then discovered that they wanted to advance a rather shallow agenda.
Of course, I was a pretty radical cultural relativist in those days, maybe I'd like it better now.
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The Book of Mormon The Dark Tower, vol 1, which I got at a second hand bookstore, (meaning it's old). What are the differences between the original (what I'm reading) and the revised edition? Is it worth getting it to reread before going on to volume 2??
quote:Mike, this stuff is nowhere near as bad as Terry Goodkind's stuff, but Feist does lose points by setting so many stories in the same universe, with the same characters.
See, one of the things that I like about the large number of stories set in the same universe is that I get to follow characters that I care about. I enjoyed watching Jimmy the Hand grow into Duke James. I like seeing how the families grow and intertwine. What I especially liked about the Serpent War series was that I felt like the characters were more well-rounded. In fact, I felt like everything was more well-rounded. Instead of just seeing the world through the eyes of the nobility and royal family, we see this whole other side of the Kingdom.
Having said all that, though, I haven't read anything by Feist since Shards of a Broken Crown, although every so often when I'm at the bookstore I will pick up Talon of the Silver Hawk and think about buying it.
I do understand the frustration with a writer who looks like a one-trick pony. Actually I really enjoyed the non-Midkemia book I read by Feist, Faerie Tale. It would be nice if he would branch out some more.
Goodkind is a completely different phenomenon. I don't dislike Goodkind because he keeps writing the same characters in the same world. I dislike Goodkind because his books are not well-written. He likes to rant about how "world-building" is bad writing, but the fact that he hasn't spent the time to invent a solid world with a coherent timeline is, in my opinion, what leads to the decreasing quality of his books over time. I quit after Faith of the Fallen. If I wanted to read anti-Communist propaganda, I wouldn't be reading a novel.
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(Oh, but "The Book of Counted Shadows" is a very evocative name. That was literally the only thing I liked about that book.)
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Actually, I agree with everything you are saying. I think Jimmy the Hand is about to die (no spoiler warning since this is just conjecture) and last night when I realized this, I was sad, as if I was losing a distant acquaintance. It is absolutely one of the cool points that you see these characters wander off of the storyline and then reappear, and age and change and make mistakes and come to grips with those mistakes. I don't think Feist is a great writer; I think he's okay. But this is definitely a strength of his. It's just that this book in particular is tedious. I liked the first book in this subseries. I'm also finding Roo more and more odious. You have to be a much more masterful author, like, say, Card or King, to wrap me up in a character with deep flaws that I don't share.
On Goodkind, we could not agree more. You hjave to be pretty rabidly republican, and not like much story with your propaganda, to like most of those books.
Intelligence3, you're right, of course. I can't think of an answer for that. But the first two books were really well written, all the same.
Cultures do change, over time. Oriental culture in particular has changed to accomodate or even embrace the West. Feist does paint this as a positive thing.
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I liked the first several Feist books, but progressively lost interest. I think Shards was the last one I read. I never did pick up the Empire series, though. For some reason, they never seemed like they would appeal to me. I'll have to pick them up now.
Right now, I'm reading the first Otherland book by Tad Williams.
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Psalms Patrick Miller – Interpreting the Psalms Denise Hopkins – A Journey Through the Psalms Billman and Migliore – Rachel’s Cry: Prayer of Lament and Rebirth of Hope Walter Brueggaman – Israel’s Praise
I’m writing curriculum – anybody want to guess the subject?
Not for work: Bob and I are reading The Soul of Politics: Beyond Religious Right and Secular Left and a collection of Hans Christian Anderson’s fairy tales to each other, and I’m about to start Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson.
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On the subject of Roo, I can kind of see what you mean. I tend to be pretty forgiving of protagonists, though. I think somewhere in my subconscious I'm just thinking "Well, this is supposed to be the good guy, so he must be good."
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I've been meaning to finish up the Otherland series for a while now. It's just been so long since I read the third book that now I'd have to go back and re-read the whole thing, and that would just take forever.
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ABOUT THE DARK TOWER SERIES, AND THE REVISION OF THE GUNSLINGER a random commentary
Several people have questioned about the difference between the original edition of The Gunslinger and the newer printed "revised edition." Having now read both (read the original first time through the entire story, and found the revised this time through) here's what I see as a difference. This is also mentioned in the "revised edition"'s foreword or some such.
The original Gunslinger book was to many people a very odd and unique way of writing. It was simple, but brutal. You gain a picture of a Roland who will do anything to continue on his quest for the tower. He seems to have very little regrets for these actions. This starts the series with an interestingly cold & rigid main character. This brutal style was seemingly archaic, and for many, hard to stay connected to.
The revised edition shows the same Roland, but shows the shadows of emotion that go on to be revealed elsewhere in the series. Stephen King also went through and fixed several inconsistancies, added some foreshadowing in parts, and some other stuff that he now feels should be integral to the gunslinger's tale.
They are the same story, but the revised edition is in a little bit less of an archaic style of writing; one that matches better the style used later in the series. You still get the same story, with only minor differences, and it helps eliviate the feeling many readers get as they try out the series. Many people I know have started reading Gunslinger, didn't like it enough to continue on in the series. King himself states that he feels the story gains its strength more in Drawing Of The Three.
Hope this clears a few things up. Everyone must now go read this excellent series. Let no presumption about the series or the author slow this quest. I know many people who won't read it simply because they feel Stephen King only writes horror. Fools. Go read The Dark Tower.
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This is a bit of a thread hijack, but the context is important, sorry.
quote: On Goodkind, we could not agree more. You hjave to be pretty rabidly republican, and not like much story with your propaganda, to like most of those books.
And be way into kink. Which is not the same thing as Republican.
quote: Intelligence3, you're right, of course.
That's gonna go straight to my head.
quote: I can't think of an answer for that. But the first two books were really well written, all the same.
Cultures do change, over time. Oriental culture in particular has changed to accomodate or even embrace the West. Feist does paint this as a positive thing.
Sure, over time. Not because one self-righteous outsider comes along and says, "my way is better."
Like the medieval-style feudalism Feist's stories are based on was any better.
This is ultimately a big problem with some sociopolitical agendas. I might well say, for example, that denigration of women is despicable and should be eradicated. I find it equally despicable for one culture to tell another culture how they should exist. That can set up some paradoxes for me (as in the above example), but ideology isn't always about the easy answer.
Feist and Wurts of course have a right to do as they wish with their own created culture, but I feel the message they send is that it our culture's values are always superior, and that's a message I don't agree with ("a message with which I don't agree," for those of you who can't bear a preposition at the end of a clause).
They are well-written, I agree. But the story I'd rather read, personally, the story tantalizingly with my grasp in the books, is what happens within the rules of an alien culture. They were coming along very well with that, then they go off on this tangent that derails the plot they have previously charted, and they make a point I don't agree with (let's presume I don't have a problem with prepositions at the end of clauses in some instances, okay?). It's almost Deus ex Machina in its implementation.
It has been years since I read the books, but my recollction, at least, is that they take a rigid set of rules, put a strong female character into the story bound by those rules, and have her suddenly become won over by a foreign man. Maybe it gets better after the second book, but I thought that was mildly offensive, as well.
I might have been more accepting of the story if had been an internal process of her coming upon new ideals herself and then changing her culture on her own initiative, but by having whatshisname be the one to "open her eyes," it undermines her strength as a character, seems unnecessarily "sexist" (though that's too strong of a word for what I find in the story, I wish there was a milder term than "sexist," which has become loaded), and it becomes more about the "Western cultural elite" imposing their ideals upon other cultures. Not that it would be a profound or original story if it was some straightforward feminist allegory, either. The originality lay in setting unique rules and then watching a strong character working within those rules to better herself.
I think another part of the problem was that they gave me this fascinating culture, made me love what they had done, then said, "Oh, and that's all wrong."
You know, this whole post makes me sound a bit more liberal than I actually am.
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Since there seem to be a lot of Dark Tower fans, I have a question I've been wondering for a while. I've heard all kinds of great things about the Dark Tower series and I'd like to read it, but I've never really heard whether it is fantasy of horror or a mixture of both. If it's fantasy I'll read it, but I can not stand horror, not even the mild stuff that makes other people laugh. So I'd really like to know before I start reading it.
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quote: I'd really like to know before I start reading it.
My response:
quote: I know many people who won't read it simply because they feel Stephen King only writes horror.
This is what I tried to say when I mentioned people shying away thinking Stephen King == horror.
Stephen King == author who loves to play with the emotions of his readers. Fear, love, hate, anything. If he writes a book that makes you do more than read words off of paper, he's succeeded.
The Dark Tower series is in NO way horror. There are some points that are meant to be spooky... but this story's purpose is to tell a tale, not scare your tail off.
So the simply answer is: Go read it. You'll love it.
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I've read at least a dozen King novels, but not one single one I would consider horror. Eventually I will read his straight-up horror, because he's that good a writer. But I have avoided it because I really don't care for the genre. But he writes a lot that is not horror; and he writes really well, imnsho.
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The Story of B, by Daniel Quinn. I finished, Ishmael, last week. Has anyone else read one or both of these books?
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Dark Tower IV: Wizard and Glass WHich is my least favorite of the series, since I have so much trouble stomaching anyone but the people in Roland's various ka-tets. Even Susan I have problems with.
I haven't really seen much difference in the revised edition of Gunslinger and the origional, I pretty much read them interchangeably. The things that I would fix (little stuff like the grips on Roland's guns, and the name of his father) haven't been changed, so it makes little difference to me.
Gunslinger sets the tone for the rest of the story, I think. It lets you deeper into Roland than any other book, and it helps you understand a lot of things that Roland does in the rest of the story.
I've read enough Stephen king now that I don't believe he writes horror. SOme stories are suspenseful, and some are bloody, but I've never been scared by the story itself. I've been scared for a character, and I've been scared BY a character, but those are marks of any great story, and not exclusive to horror.
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Fiction: "The Man Who Risked His Partner", by Stephen R. Donaldson (originally published under the name Reed Stephens). This is detective fiction rather than fantasy, but his protagonists are physically and/or emotionally crippled nonetheless. Where have we seen that before? Oh, well, the characters are interesting, even if it seems like well-trodden ground.
Non-Fiction: "The Republican War Against Women", by Tanya Melich. This one is written by a woman who was a life-long moderate Republican, very active in the party, until she felt pushed out by the right-wing takeover of the party apparatus. Intersting, so far.
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For my thesis, I am reading the Rig Veda (Hindu Scripture) and for fun, I am reading a book called World Masterpieces (a compilation of about 20 classics).
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I would like to be reading something other than "Animal Physiology: From Genes to Organisms" or "Organic Chemisty" or the "Fifth Edition of Social Psychology." Maybe once all these tests are done I can get back to reading the Bible and the last bit of the Homecoming series and the Red Prophet, all of which I left off on before I had to read all this other stuff. Once that is done I am finally gonna read "The Stand" by Stephen King. Hopefully, I can get on this reading soon
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It was wonderful.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
I thought it would be a bit more engaging than it is. I'll likely finish it eventually, though, because I'm a nerd and happen to really like maps and geology.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Oh, well, the characters are interesting, even if it seems like well-trodden ground.
