I just got this from a friend of mine who's Muslim. We have had some talks last (school) year about God, Quran, how does it mix with science, etc. She had some very good arguments about lots of things, but I wasn't ready to post something like that on Hatrack... Now I wish I at least wrote them down. Anyway, this seems like an interesting link, I'm going to try to read as much as I can about it in the next weeks. It's actually the first time I'm doing this - reading something this religious related... I wonder if anyone has some good website that could provide additional information about/against Islam? Also: are there any websites like this one about other religions? And I'll also try to check the older threads on this topic... I'm in for a treat, right? Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I'd rank it with any other religion in my belief/disbelief factor - Islam has no greater claim to validity in my eyes than Judaism, Christianity, Wicca, Shintoism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
posted
This site provides a Christian perspective on Islam (I haven't gone through it extensively, though, I just stumbled across it while looking for something else).
I've been reading the Penguin edition of the Koran lately. It is certainly an interesting read...
Posts: 609 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
'Against' Islam was just a short way of saying: 'giving other interpretations then the Islamic accepted ones'.
Thanks, dh, I'll look into it.
I'm not about to convert due to several 'beliefs' I hold that are not compatible with Islam, but I think it's interesting to see why so many people are believers.
And I also thought we've had lots of insights on different religions here at Hatrack but not on Islam and this was too good an opportunity to pass.
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posted
Why do people believe anything? Because they want to or they feel like they experienced something to convert them or it is a belief they were raised with and have never found the need to question.
That said, do we actually have any practicing Muslims on this board?
posted
babager, if that question was directed to me, yes, I do know that.
quote: Why do people believe anything?
Good question. Some would put it a little bit differently though: 'Why do so many people believe in God? How can they all be wrong?' I believe they can all be wrong, as I think we can delude ourselves about basicaly anything, but I'm still interested to see where they take there beliefs from.
As for Muslims on this board, I don't know, but there's always a first, right?! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Without even going to your link, I just have to chime in about the whole idea of ANY religion creating an "educational resource" about another religion. Frankly, it's a bad idea. Taking anything from such a resource as fact without corroboration from a source that DOES accept the belief as true is really really a bad idea.
I come to this belief, frankly, through reading OSC. I have no personal experience with the people in the majority religion maligning my own for reasons that come from gross misinterpretation of the truth, but I've seen it directed at others. Anytime you go to church and there is a dramatic sketch involving a muslim, and how he has a secret hole in his heart because he believes the wrong thing, all you are doing is reinforcing false expectations that non-christians will all happily cast away all their misbeliefs and don WWJD bracelets if only someone tells them how wrong they are. Scholarly approaches are no better, as most people who "study" Christianity on an academic level will have their own set of distortions.
Basically, I try to avoid anything like this, just because I know how easy it would be to point to a few scriptures in the Bible and find that Christians are a bunch of Puritanical, bloodthirsty, polytheistic, sheep. Whether you believe that is true or not, it would be a misrepresentation of the entire work. The book of Leviticus is in the Bible. People writing about "Christianity from a Hindu perspective" are free to pick verses from it to represent Christianity. They aren't likely to include theological intricacies that explain why we no longer believe the words printed in our own holy book.
Approaching any belief system from the perspective of "how is this wrong" will only lead to frustration and conflict.
Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
IdemosthenesI, my problem with your approach is that it sees religions as something "true", even if they give different interpretations to certain things. Many people, either religious or not, are concerned with the amount of truth that can be found in a religion or another; why not try to find out?
And how is Taking anything from such a resource as fact without corroboration from a source that DOES accept the belief as true any better than the opposite approach?! That's too close to "believe and don't question" for me to like it...
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Here's a fabulous edition of the Qur'an filled with copious Surrah introductions and in-text translation and interpretational commentary - written by a practicing Muslim. If you want to know what someone believes, go to someone who believes it.
If you're going to study any religious text in a quest for truth, read (and experience) the texts and testimonies of those within the Faith. If you want to find out about a conflicting Faith, study their works.
Cross-Religion books RARELY do anything but throw bile.
Although there ARE some good 'let's explore the common truths we DO share' books out there, they are few and far between.
posted
A very interesting philosophy, which originated in Islam, is Sufism. I think many will find Sufi Islam entirely unobjectionable (beyond not believing it themselves), and indeed, quite surprising.
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As a word, Jihad is best translated as striving. There is no dispute about that. As to the forms it is acceptable the striving take, that there are disputes about.
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Yeah, but why? What about the question in the second paragraph of my last post?
Trevor: I agree, and that's why I want to have different points of view on religions. In my opinion, there's a comparable number of religions and believers, since many people's set of beliefs differ in a slight way from the "mainstream" beliefs. So when someone says: "Read this and that, because this man/woman is a true believer.", I actually see: "Read this man's/woman's interpretation of the religion he/she says he/she believes in."
fugu, I have 0 knowledge about Sufism, I'll try to correct that! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I've recently joined a religous discussion group on campus that is largely made up of practicing Muslims. It's been really interesting learning about Islam. In a lot of ways it sounds a lot older, more poetic, and more mature than Christianity. However, the more I learn about it the more I notice the many similarities between it and Christianity.
One particularly telling moment was when we had a Jewish speaker talking about Judaism. A conservative Christian and one of the Muslim men banded together, both completely confused by the lack of eternal punishment in the afterlife. It was incomprehensible to them.
At our next meeting I'll ask for some websites that the Muslims in the group think are good.
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And yeah, you just 'exposed' probably my biggest problem with some religions: the belief in eternal punishment. For me, this would be veeeeery ungodly... I loved what Roger Zelazny wrote in Lord of Light: when Yama, the God of Death talked to a monk about him being 'just', the monk answered "Who above 18 still prefers a fair God to a merciful one?!" (or something along these lines)
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posted
I left Christianity over the belief in eternal punishment, so it's something I pay quite a bit of attention to when it crops up.
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posted
Oh, didn't know that... Might I ask if you are practicing any religion right now, or just looking?
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posted
In some senses it is older than Christianity. Christian tradition, while it draws heavily on Judaic tradition, is also the result of much modern thinking on a synthesis between Judaic tradition and Greek philosophy (among other things).
In contrast, Islam's foundations rest firmly on Arab and Persian culture. After all, in Islam God speaks Arabic. It of course takes many lessons from other peoples, but Islam can be seen in early mu-allaq's almost as much as it can be seen in stories of Muhammed or the Qu'ran, which cannot be said of Christianity and pre-Christian texts.
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posted
I'm not anything. I find religious interesting as an intellectual exercise, but not as a belief system.
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posted
Islam is certainly younger than Christianity, but it is by no stretch of the imagination younger than Protestantism. Were you to attend a catholic mass in a traditional church, you would probably get the same sense of age and maturity.
As to why it's best to learn about beliefs from someone who believes them, rather than someone who would like to get those people to not believe them, it's mostly because the people who DO believe have a vested interest in representing their faith as accurately as possible, while the people who are teaching from the standpoint of an outsider looking in at best, or someone trying to undermine the faith at worst, have a vested interest in finding loopholes and contradictions.
Remember, I'm not advocating believing everything that you learn, but if it is your desire merely to learn what someone believes, and not find something to believe in yourself, it's imperative that you go straight to the source.
By the way, you are absolutely right about my approach looking at all religions as "true." The reason that's important is that the people who you are trying to learn about DO see it as absolutely true. They aren't interested in their religions for purely academic or poetic reasons. Their religions define their worldview. They interpret their experiences and the information they receive in light of their beliefs being true. This is something you don't get when you read books that talk about how the beliefs are wrong, or how the people need to be "saved" from their religions. From those books, you get the picture of a deluded individual waiting for the truth, not someone who lives with the knowledge and conviction (whether it be objectively true or not) that they are right, and that their God is with them.
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posted
IdemosthenesI: I'm still pondering on that... I have to go home right now, but I'll try to take a closer look to what you said in a couple of days. (have a full day tomorrow...)
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posted
Idemosthenesl: I've never been to an Islamic religious ceremony. All that I know comes from the little theology I've learned in the last few months. I know just as much Catholic theology as Islamic theology, though I wish I knew more about both.
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posted
Demo, don't you think it might be a good idea for you to actually go and have a look at dh's link?
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posted
I have subsequently done so. Nothing there to change my mind.
Nevertheless, the reason I didn't before I posted is that I believe this pattern to be pretty much universal, and if there are exceptions I haven't seen them. Christians should not go to other Christians to find out what muslims beleive anymore than you would go to Alexandra Kerry to find out about Jenna Bush. They might not have any specific bone to pick with each other, but you still shoulfn't make the mistake of assuming they are unbiased.
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posted
You know, I'd consider the ability and willingness to describe other religions accurately and fairly to be one of the main qualifications for trusting someone to describe their own religion fairly. Someone who can only talk in opposition to other people's beliefs may have belief and, more importantly, a need to believe, but they don't have faith. A person without true faith is neither a good resource nor someone who can be trusted to not distort their own religion towards the positive as much as they distort others to the negative. This inability to distinguish a need to believe from faith has ever been a major stumbling block to responsible religion.
For me, the fact that you can't trust most people to talk fairly about other religions, political ideologies, or the other side of the contentious cats or dogs debate means that you can't trust most people, not that you can only trust people when talking about the things they believe in. If they are willing to distort the facts about others' beliefs or put themselves up as knowledgable about things that they aren't, they are irresponsible. This doesn't go away when they are talking about hteir own beliefs. If anything, it gets worse.
However, this is not the universal condition that some people here seem to consider it. There are a significant minority of people out there who are secure and responsible. Find such people and you'll probably realize that these people are often a better resource on beliefs that they don't hold than many of the people who do believe them.
It does bug me that people look around, see most people are irresponsible, and are thus willing to give up on responsibility. It may be a rare gem, but it's worth prizing all the more because of that. What people seem to be settling for isn't the best that you can hope for, but, if you keep settling, it the best you'll ever be able to expect.
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On another tack and not directed at anyone, I've found that religious knowledge comes in two complementary flavors. An intellectual understanding is a useful and often edifying thing but to really understand a religion, I think you have to live in that religion for a while. In my experience (and keep in mind I'm a quasi-Daoist), religions aren't primarily intellectual or conscious things. As such, they don't really yield themselves to people who aren't sincere praticioners. If you really want to understand Islam (or Christianity or Buddhism or whatver) by all means study up on it, but also trying living in it for a year or so. I think you'll find immersing yourself in it's culture, belief system, and mythological structure will give you a much greater understanding of it (even or perhaps especially because you can't put what you've learned into words) than taking it on from a distance.
quote: I'd consider the ability and willingness to describe other religions accurately and fairly to be one of the main qualifications for trusting someone to describe their own religion fairly.
Squick, it's not that I disagree with your post, but there are a few things you don't cover.....people who are not trying to lie or misrepresent other religions but are still wrong in their characterizations of them, because of their views within their own faith.
I agree that if someone is saying that Mormons eat babies then obviously they don't care about the truth, or care enough to portray the good aspects of the Mormon religion.....
But what type of criticisms can a RC or a rabbi made of secret church teachings when they aren't in a position to know the teachings themselves.
Also everyone has their own unconscious bias, and that often comes out when discussing other religions.
I wouldn't go to Rush Limbaugh for an honest review of Clinton's Presidency, or to Kerry for a balanced view of W....
If you want to learn about a religion, ask someone who is in a position to know what they are speaking about. Don't accept everything they say at face value, but that is where you should start.
Anything else is going to a liquor store to buy dog food.
posted
Yes. But (to quote a conversation I had on this very topic last night) at least according to the beliefs of some Muslims (as evidenced by actions, speeches, and writings) God asks them to do things that are contrary to the nature of the God Judaism (I cannot speak for any other religion) believes in.
Therefore, how can it be described as the same God?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Because that post dh gave consists of outright lies or convenient out of context misrepresentations made in order to intentionally paint Islam in a bad light. Instead of "we disagree here" they are saying "they disagree with us and we are right and they are evil" with their "answers," which provide no real answer at all. It is a site dedicated to feeding ammunition for those who have already made up their mind that different beliefs are inherently evil anyway. It is a kinder, gentler Jack Chick.
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posted
Squicky- I don't think it's right to live a year as another religion when I don't believe it. I can't force myself to believe Islam. I could pretend to convert and go to their religious ceremonies and participate in their rituals but it would always be a sham. I know I don't believe anything, so I don't know how I can believe this, but I believe rituals that have been in existance for thousands of years have a power all of their own, and I think it's desecration to participate in them unless you believe. I don't take communion, if I attended a Catholic church I wouldn't take Mass.
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posted
The trouble with Islam is that it depends on Judaism and Christianity to exist, claiming to be a "continuation" and "confirmation" of previous revelations, while simultaneously rejecting the very basics of those two religions. So I don't find it in the least inappropriate to examine Islam from a Christian, or Jewish, perspective.
Posts: 609 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
But of course you don't find a problem with looking at it from a christian perspective, as you are yourself a christian. However, your premise would not hold water with a practitioner of Islam any more than my examining Christianity as a perversion of Judaism would hold water with you. Religion is somewhat unique in that, rather than being convinced of a position you hold through logic and reason, you hold that belief despite the lack of proof and are actively encouraged to disregard logic. The very idea of faith is illogical, no matter how many times St. Anselm tries to use word games to "prove" god's existence. Of course, saying that faith is illogical sounds like an attack, but that really isn't my intention. what I'm actually trying to say is that religion exists outside of logic, and that isn't neccesarily a bad thing, but it's true.
That being said, it's very difficult to try to ascertain empirically whether a religion is true or not, because there is equal proof for all of them, none. So in researching what someone believes, the most effective approach is not "how are these person's beliefs different from mine," but "what are this person's beliefs and how do they fit into the greater framework of this person's life/culture/personality."
Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
BTW, Mormonism does the same thing. Go back 2000 years and Christianity did the same thing, claiming to be an extension of Judaism. Just because a faith traces back to the same root doesn't make it a "splinter sect." It can, with time and momentum, become an independent religion as Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism have all done, despite their beginnings as "wild-eyed heretics" of other faiths.
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posted
I just got a long email from a muslim woman I know about why muslim women cover themselves. It's really long, so I'd like to make sure people are interested before I post it (and I'm waiting to get permission from her).
posted
I thought the long and short of it was an issue of modesty and, from my jaded Westerner's perspective, a mysoginistic attempt to blame women for men being unable to control themselves and put the onus of such behaviors on the women themselves.
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