Here are some examples of the nastiness I'm talking about:
quote:Bean Counter: This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant.
quote:Bean Counter: The only reason Canada is not a part of the US is that we do not want it. Half of Canada services us and the other half comes from us. It is something between our wife and our mistress, perhaps our whore would be the best analogy. But it is a great one!
quote:Bean Counter: I think the Japanese are people who shine whatever the circumstances. The greatest followers in the world! They would have made wonderful Americans, they are good at whatever they set there minds too.
I think at times they feel insulted that we did not want them. Kinda like beating up the bully and then not sleeping with the girl. Makes her feel ugly.
. . . .
I tell you, waiting for someone to come up to my level here is like waiting for the Russians to resupply my food.
Come on I'll dance with the ugly girls too, don't be scared and timid!
quote:Bean Counter: I love the little people that make all of this possible...
quote:Jar Head: If you don't think your wife is the prettiest girl at the dance then you are pretty messed up. Jingoist, what the hell is that anyway? Some fancy word that makes you cool like Latte or something. . . . .
Tell me to chill out? I plan to die of stroke screaming on the CB while working and drive my truck through your house.
quote:Jar Head: If you want to have forceful opinions, real opinions that you believe in and will fight for then you should practice grabbing your sack and saying it proud. If you want to whine and ask for a consensus, good luck to you.
The analogy: I guess it is that if you will not take it to the next level, the guy pushing your buttons will. Willingness to push it on up will keep your woman safe.
quote:King of Men You, comrade, are a scientifically illiterate idiot, who believes any pseudo-rational explanation he can lay hands on as long as it includes the words 'quantum mechanics.' Be sure to cheer up your bodyguard in hell by telling them how much they've improved the gene pool.
quote:Jar Head: Don't make me be insensitive, I can't take another Raia hug-fest. My condolences on the loss of your cousin.
quote:Jar Head:There must be better then this here! These are the lovers of the man who wrote Ender's Game!
quote:Jar Head: Because you are a coward who lacks the courage to put the fight where it needs to go. Mamby Pamby sympathy is what evil needs, good people who want to share feelings instead of acting viciously and instantly when they are threatened. Does God want your half hearted lip service? I think it is as worthless as a counterfeit penny.
Go encourage the ACLU to attack the Boy Scouts and the US military and Christianity. We will win in the end with or without you. I heard they even have a list of potential contributers, monitoring charitable contributions and personal wealth to know who to dun. Real concerned about Civil Liberty aren't they! You should fit in with the hypocrites, saying you have faith and stabbing the faithful.
quote:Jar Head: Yes, who needs such as this? The great 'I do not really give a shit' mass of self indulgence. In the end he will wait for the winners to emerge and jump into that line. Trying to sheepishly blend in with the cheering throng. Better to lose and die then to believe in nothing.
Has anybody else's enjoyment of the forum declined during this assault? Obviously, I don't get to dictate what Hatrack ought to be like, but I am describing what I see (as well as lamenting it).
posted
I've thought for quite some time that BC and JH were the same person.
Now I am more sure. And I agree that he/they are NOT adding much to the community.
As for KoM, while I find him frequently abrasive, I think most of his posts are more reasonable. He does often contribute to meaningful dialogue, IMO.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm used to tuning out inflammatory garbage, but I hadn't realized how bad some of this had gotten. The one about Raia's cousin was entirely uncalled for and it grieves me that someone could be so callous.
I come here to talk to my friends. I don't agree with all of the opinions here (or even most of them) but I want to have a healthy, mature relationship with people that helps us both grow.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Here here, Annie - we're here to be among (or lurk among) freinds, like-minded or not.
Having said that - doesn't everyone have at least one freind who does nothing but talk trash? People like that are essential, like salt in the soup, grit in the chiken, strichnine in the well... er... oh boy.
posted
Yeah, stuff like this is vile and uncalled for. And it's not how we talk to each other here. Hatrack is better than 99.9% of places on the web specifically because we listen with respect. I hope the offenders will step back, take a deep breath, and try to learn better methods of discourse.
The moderators usually give people time to calm down and learn our ways. The community is largely self-adjusting. But they have shown that eventually they will step in to ban people who debate like this, if they don't change their methods.
I have gotten better at ignoring stuff like this too, so didn't realize it was as bad as it is. But yes, I support highly any efforts to improve the standards of civilized discourse on the board.
It's not that anyone's argument or message must be watered down in any way. All ideas are welcome to be expressed. It's just that offensive insulting or hateful talk isn't tolerated here. If people will learn to rephrase their thoughts to be sure and address IDEAS rather than people, to eliminate name calling, and to edit out gratuitous insults, not only will they be respected and accepted more, but the strength of their arguments will be bolstered as well. Arguing with meanness or pettiness or nastiness only serves to strengthen the opponent's case.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
The thing is is when they do it a majority of the time.
However, since I have been gone for a while, and when back only looking shortly, I haven't really noticed anyone in specific. Yes, a couple comments here and there on a couple threads, but not enough for me to get really upset.
I will leave this to the resident experts now.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I seem to remember at time when Thor (now known as Telperion the Silver) was regarded as quite the rabble-rouser. Now he's an established part of the pantheon o' regulars.
Posts: 353 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Like Stan said, this is a "most of the time" thing. It's so typical of JH and BC that when I see posts by them, my eyes automatically skip them and go to the next one. That's why I haven't noticed how terribly inappropriate and uncalled for some of them were. It's a good heads up Icarus.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
King of Men is sometimes mean but not a troll. WRT that post of his you quote, I believe he was retaliating in kind.
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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As for the bitter people...I too just ignore most of it. There will always be people who are rude or just have really differing opinions on things. It only becomes a problem with attacks are made personally against people. Which I guess that's what most of those quotes are....but some seems to be attacks against someone's opinion or way of thinking...not nessecarily an attack against the person thinking it.
BC has always been a rude little boy, but he seems to have some insight at times. Half the time I can't tell if he's serious or not.
[ December 19, 2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Look, BC and Jarhead are just working through some issues. While not the same person, they are apparently extremely close friends.
It's an "us against the world and you can't know what we share" kinda thing. Both have to put up a combative and macho front in this world and it's intrinsic that they do it together, supporting each other through thick and thin. One backing up the other, the other taking over when its necessary.
Look, these are obviously two young men working through some very serious issues in their relationship to the world and their own inner feelings. We should allow them work together until they have made a spot they are comfortable in revealing to each other and all others around them who they truly are.
And we should be accepting of them in this difficult time while they cling together and suffer the slings and arrows of cruel public opinion. Acceptance, even tolerance for these special, special men is necessary for them to feel safe and valued in this world.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: BC has always been a rude little boy, but he seems to have some insight at times. Half the time I can't tell if he's serious or not
I know BC and he is rarely if ever serious. However I am! However let me look over that list and clarify some points for those that hear a tone instead of reading words.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head: If you don't think your wife is the prettiest girl at the dance then you are pretty messed up. Jingoist, what the hell is that anyway? Some fancy word that makes you cool like Latte or something. . . . .
Tell me to chill out? I plan to die of stroke screaming on the CB while working and drive my truck through your house. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay I do not want to drive a truck through your house, but I very much am offended by being told to chill out. Passion is no vice!
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head: If you want to have forceful opinions, real opinions that you believe in and will fight for then you should practice grabbing your sack and saying it proud. If you want to whine and ask for a consensus, good luck to you.
The analogy: I guess it is that if you will not take it to the next level, the guy pushing your buttons will. Willingness to push it on up will keep your woman safe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For those of you who may not have a sack this might be rude, I do not expect forceful opinions from women, though they often have them, but a wishy washy man makes me kind of ill.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- King of Men You, comrade, are a scientifically illiterate idiot, who believes any pseudo-rational explanation he can lay hands on as long as it includes the words 'quantum mechanics.' Be sure to cheer up your bodyguard in hell by telling them how much they've improved the gene pool. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Too late for this BC has two daughters already and is trying for a son before he deploys, I am no scientist so I cannot comment on the other part and he is in Iowa for the holidays and then off to Stewert...
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head: Don't make me be insensitive, I can't take another Raia hug-fest. My condolences on the loss of your cousin. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------My condolences were sincere, and Raia had three threads floating that were Raia hug fests, like the Bra one that goes and goes...talk without action makes me itch.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head:There must be better then this here! These are the lovers of the man who wrote Ender's Game! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Asking for the real mensch to speak up? Nothing wrong there! quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head: Because you are a coward who lacks the courage to put the fight where it needs to go. Mamby Pamby sympathy is what evil needs, good people who want to share feelings instead of acting viciously and instantly when they are threatened. Does God want your half hearted lip service? I think it is as worthless as a counterfeit penny.
Go encourage the ACLU to attack the Boy Scouts and the US military and Christianity. We will win in the end with or without you. I heard they even have a list of potential contributers, monitoring charitable contributions and personal wealth to know who to dun. Real concerned about Civil Liberty aren't they! You should fit in with the hypocrites, saying you have faith and stabbing the faithful. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------God that was good! I need a cigerrette...
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jar Head: Yes, who needs such as this? The great 'I do not really give a shit' mass of self indulgence. In the end he will wait for the winners to emerge and jump into that line. Trying to sheepishly blend in with the cheering throng. Better to lose and die then to believe in nothing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Well we came to better terms by the end, he showed values and I showed restraint, and explained my reasons for passion.
If I am not allowed to have passionate opinions here then I will go, hell I only joined because BC showed the site to me and was always laughing at left wing wackos. If you were smart you might consider it an opportunity to find out why 90% of the counties in the US have a majority that agrees with me! Something besides the liberal faith that we are all dumb, maybe it is because we care! Care enough to fight, care enough to rage, care enough to bust our humps every day for our loved ones, care enough to stand up and vote for our president and care enough to stand up for our faith. These things matter to me... your nostalgia for hug threads and hand holding doesn't. I avoid those threads maybe you need to stay out of the serious ones.
It is funny that you think we are the same person, I guess there is room in your mind for only one right wing military man, there are millions of us!
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
We should definitely accept them. We do NOT have to accept their nasty, destructive behavior. I'm all for using Hatrack to work out issues, but they don't have to randomly shoot people in their quest.
Hatrack is the nicest place on earth, and even the very dregs of behavior will be defended by someone, but the quotes above aren't irritated quirks. They are deeply nasty and malicious. Not acceptable.
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm losing all patience with those two... Not nessasarily because of their conservatism but because of the ignorant way they present it. Who needs more of that? I'm sick of it. There is absolutely no reason to be that obnoxious.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:They are deeply nasty and malicious. Not acceptable.
quote: We do NOT have to accept their nasty, destructive behavior. I'm all for using Hatrack to work out issues, but they don't have to randomly shoot people in their quest.
You have never encoutered my behavior, just my opinions, and I do not recall ever shooting at random. I find the idea very insulting.
[ December 19, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Jar Head ]
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:If I am not allowed to have passionate opinions here then I will go
It's not the passionate opinions.
It's the insulting manner in which you present them. Consistently posting incorrect facts and not acknowledging contrary evidence, either by admitting a mistake was made or providing evidence, is also a big part of the problem.
posted
You have me mixed up with someone else, I only speak about what I know which is not much. BC might get into all that, I still am suspicious of evolution, I have never seen a qauntum and I stopped math at high school geometry. I drive trucks and raise my boy.
However I do know this, the law is so made that I dare not go to court without a lawyer, the judges openly punish those whose only defense is the truth, and the law is made by the lawyers for the lawyers. A lawyer is taught that his highest moral good is to sell his opinion to the highest bidder. The rest of us call that prostitution. So if your arguments do not get response it might be the lack of anything nice to say...
Posts: 117 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:However I do know this, the law is so made that I dare not go to court without a lawyer,
Are you also upset that you can't practically operate on yourself?
quote:the judges openly punish those whose only defense is the truth,
What does this mean exactly? That people who tell the truth always lose? Or that people who tell the truth are found guilty or liable when the truth they tell demonstrates guilt or liability?
quote:and the law is made by the lawyers for the lawyers.
Do you mean "for lawyers to use when representing clients"? Then you're correct.
quote:A lawyer is taught that his highest moral good is to sell his opinion to the highest bidder.
Nope. Flat out wrong.
quote:The rest of us call that prostitution.
"Us"? Do you mean everybody else in the world but lawyers? Or do you mean some subset of people? Exactly for whom are you speaking?
OK, let's drop the joke. I think that this forum should be 'correctd' as suggested above. I know, I've one some weird things here and I'm definitely not innocent; but truly, come on! Those quotes were shocking!
Jonny
[ December 19, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
The thing is, there's almost always a person or two like this around. BC and JarHead combined don't begin to rival Baldar when he was in a *good* mood.
And the early, angry David Bowles was able to bring intellect to bear in addition to venom, which made him a much more potent, destructive force than either of these two. It was difficult to ignore either Baldar or Bowles, because in additon to being really, really unplesant, they both brought something worthwhile to the community. I still wish Baldar could have shaped up and learned not to attack people--his perspective was an interesting one, when his frothing at the mouth didn't obscure it. And David Bowles, of course, learned how to function in the community and became a valued member for quite some time before quitting Hatrack and taking up residence at GreNME.
posted
You know, there have been some threads where these two have simply been ignored and the conversation carried on around them quite happily. Heck, how many times do people wish that they could just ignore their problems and have their problems go away? And here we have a situation where it would actually work and people just can't do it. It's almost funny.
I guess it comes down to why you're here. Are you here to instruct or are you here to interact with friends? If the latter your friends aren't going to think less of you for not sinking down into the bilge to slog out some misbegotten point. If the former then I can see how you may fear that some rare lurker/passer by might see a post and think that we all condone it and you don't want to be responsible for that.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
" I still wish Baldar could have shaped up and learned not to attack people-"
Baldar got banned over at ornery shortly after being banned at hatrack. After a while, during which time Tom Davidson and I, among some others, stated that Baldar was an honorable enough person that we expected him to honor the ban, Baldar came back under a new handle. Took a while before we figure out it was him, because he ALMOST behaved rationally for a while, but finally devolved into his normal posting style.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Hatrack was at its peak whenever the person telling you about it was new to the forum, I think. Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
::idly wonders if Jon doesn't have a troll persona out there, and is laughing behind his hand at my telling him that he fits well into the community::
::takes anti-paranoia pill, dismisses the idea::
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Hmm. I think if rude behavior is ignored (or reported) long enough it will eventually go away. BC and JH just make me giggle because some of the things they say are so off-base. I for one can ignore that, but I will also happily report anything to the mods that crosses the line. Some of their posts make me wonder why they have such a need for attention; it seems as though they say crazy things in order to develop a tough persona and just upset other people.
posted
Really Paul? I wouldn't have imagined that he'd have returned like that. Huh. The draw for these forums can be pretty strong, though, once you've gotten into the habit of frequenting them. I wouldn't be surprised if his sneaky return didn't come as a surprise to him too.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
***raven slowly backs away from the well, in an attempt to conceal his purpose for being there. *SUDDENLY* The air raid siren goes off, and 50-100 troops come charging in to surround the supposed purpetrator. Raven slowly raises his hands, in a possible attempt to throw a suspicious looking vial at the feet of others while looking innocent and trying to show he is not armed. A rustling of the surrounding bushes draws the attention away from Raven, as he rids himself of the evidence. The evidence lands in the well.
Sorry, it was me ok.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Yeah, I didn't think he would return like that, either. One reason why I never even thought of the possibility that Ron was the same person as Baldar. I had talked to him off of hatrack and ornery, and he seemed like a really upstanding person, not interested in deceit or underhandedness. I still sorta think that of him, but I have to wonder why he decided to come back in a sneaky fashion.
The mod only figured it out when he got an email from baldar saying that he had this new persona. Once I knew the two posters were the same, after mod announced what had happened, I recognized that the two personas were almost identical. But I was certainly embarresed about my defence of him.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
These threads are kind of funny. How often does confronting a troll really work? Jar Head has already shown, even in this thread, that he won't take criticism of any kind. He quotes valid opinions from other posters, and then shrugs them off as whining or stupidity (even though he's the one who most often comes off looking like an idiot).
I guess this thread is great for allowing regular forum members to commiserate, but I seriously doubt it will have any effect on Bean Counter or Jar Head. Personally, my enjoyment of the forum hasn't diminished in any way because of their presence. It would be awesome if we could all just ignore these two, but it seems like someone is always willing to take the bait.
Posts: 1855 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Regarding my post, I was responding to this little gem by our friend the Bean Counter :
quote:KoM you are the turd that half floats and half sinks to the bottom of a bowl while bubbling occasionally.
Respect is a line that travels two ways; I do not feel any particular obligation to be polite to this idiot. If I ever say anything of this sort to someone civilised, please feel free to rein me in right sharply.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Respect is a line that travels two ways; I do not feel any particular obligation to be polite to this idiot. If I ever say anything of this sort to someone civilised, please feel free to rein me in right sharply.
And if you continue to attack your 'enemies' they will just come back to attack you with more strength, and likewise you would them. If you were to be nice, or respect them even when they do not respect you, you make them forfeit thier game. The only way to fix respect problems, is to rise above mud slinging.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Is there no possibility of some of us banding together to tell the trolls (deliberate word choice, Xap) to shape or get the heck out of this community?
Deliberate but poor word choice... A troll is someone who is intentionally harming the forum, not someone who is presenting an opinion in an unpopular, incorrect, or uncivil way. And if these quotes constitute being a troll, most people on this forum are trolls.
I agree that all the statements you listed are both disrespectful and unacceptable for this forum or any civil discussion. However, I disagree with the suggestion that the problem should be pinned on just these three Hatrackers, as some are suggesting. I could pretty easily go find a bunch of recent quotes from plenty of other Hatrackers, some of whom have been here for a long time, who have said equally bad or worse things. I know at the very least, things have been said to me in recent threads by Hatrackers not listed here - things just as bad as what BC, JH, and KoM are being accused of here. And I've seen the same elsewhere to others.
My point here is not that because everybody's doing it, it's acceptable. Rather, it's just the opposite. Rather than putting the blame down on one or two "trolls" to solve the problem, we should recognize that it's a larger problem than that, and that it's something even those who are civil MOST of the time need to work on. Driving any one or two members of the forum is not going to make it civil. All of us acting civil will make it civil.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I disagree that respect is only required toward those who behave respectfully. Respect is required toward everyone. Retaliation in kind to unacceptable posts results in yet more posts that are unacceptable.
There are no people who are unwelcome here. There are no ideas that are unwelcome. The thing that's not just unwelcome here but actually not tolerated for long is insults, disrespect, and general nastiness.
This thread is an attempt to give the offenders a chance to see what they are doing and change. Countering with misbegotten ideas about what constitutes a real man won't help. Insulting everyone even more won't help. There are no issues of gender here. The real men on this board are those who speak with intelligence and respect, not braggadocio and swagger.
Knowledge of how to interact with other people in a civilized way will bring huge benefits in every aspect of a person's life. It gives a person enormously more stature with others. It makes lightweights into heavyweights. This is a great gift that the community here has to offer to people, this knowledge. Do the offenders have the wisdom and humility to accept this gift? That is what this thread is hoping to foster.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
People are not perfect. People get hurt. No matter how hard you try to make things come across with the intent of helping someone, They _always_ have the opportunity to take it as though you mean to harm them. However: Every time someone says something to you, you have the option of thinking the best, and taking it as best as you can. Only _you_ allow others to bother you, and hurt you.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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