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Author Topic: Is Pet Ownership Ethical?
Jenny Gardener
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A couple of threads lately have really got me thinking about the ethics of keeping a pet. (The ones on euthanasia and spaying/neutering)

Is it really a good thing to have pets or encourage the keeping of pets? What benefits does it bring? What effect does it have on the Balance of things? What position does it put you in?

For instance, we make the decisions of life or death for our pets. We confine them into small spaces and determine when they may feed. We "fix" them so that their reproductive organs are broken. We inbreed them until they are not capable of surviving without our influence. We use them for our entertainment. Sometimes we abuse them. We call them our friends, but do we really treat them as such?

I'm wondering what human relationships with animals really say about our species.

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Trisha the Severe Hottie
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Despite our very short engagement, the one thing we agreed on is that we wouldn't have pets. For my husband, his parents would sometimes breed their pedigree German Shepherd and he was acutely aware of the hard work/cuteness ratio. For me, it was the pain of going through one pet dying after another (though mine were hamsters). The idea is that we don't see pet ownership as something to be taken lightly.

The thing is that I do love pets. I'm fascinated by animals and have a huge drive to be nurturing. I think if my husband passed away I would get a dog, both as a companion and for security. It's trite, but I really think of cats as owning people and not the other way around.

P.S. I guess I'm saying that pet ownership can be ethical, if you have a real relationship with the animal, if they have a purpose besides looking good or whatever.

[ January 02, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]

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Paul Goldner
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I don't think its intrinsically ethical, or not. It depends on the owner/animal relationship.
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Jenny Gardener
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Can you have a "relationship" with an animal without considering yourself its owner?

Can you have a pet that you don't treat as a child or a slave or a prisoner?

I believe you can, but it is rare to find people who relate to animals with the same respect and honor they extend to other humans.

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Paul Goldner
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Yes, but animals AREN'T other humans, and as such, our relationship with them should be different then the relationship we have with other people.
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Jenny Gardener
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I agree! Animals are NOT people. So, does that mean we should take them into our homes? Why or why not?

And can we shift our perspective from that of Dominators of Creation to something else? Are we not animals ourselves?

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Chris Bridges
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In our case, we only adopt pets from the Humane Society or from local rescue organizations, animals that would have been destroyed otherwise. We get companionship, they get a safe habitat and life. Works for me.
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PSI Teleport
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I see dog ownership, specifically, as a sort of symbiotic relationship. You give the dog food and love that it needs, and you feed off of the love it gives back. Kids who grow up with dogs are better for it, in my opinion. Are dogs better off for their relationship with us? Maybe not as a species, but as individuals, I believe they are, if we treat them right.
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Shan
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Nathan and I are completely owned by Pepper and Smokey. Two fascinating, loving, loveable, sometimes infuriating family members - I, for one, look on the their presence as a blessing and a gift. I do wish that there were such as a thing as a pet translator and pet health insurance . . . [Big Grin]

Nathan gets the opportunity to learn skills in sharing and caring - which he is relly good at, but practice is important, and as an only child, I think Pepper (and now Smokey) fill some empty places for him.

I get to have lowered blood pressure due to some really good laughs watching Pepper and Smokey antics. I get to have higher blood pressure worrying about any health problems - [Wink] and I get to practice problem solving, like: how to keep Smokey out of Pepper's food since adult food does not do a kitten well . . . and vice versa . . .

Pepper gets a friend to keep her company, rather than being alone all day while Nathan is in school and I am at work. Pepper also got a good home to live in, proper medical care, good diet, safety and comfort - which is not what she had when Nathan and I rescued her from the shelter.

Before we adopted Pepper, Nathan and I had some very serious talks about pet care, and ensured that everything was ready to go (food, water, litter box, safe spaces, vet, carrier, books read and to be read on cats) . . .

Smokey might have done better in the barn he lived in - but I don't know . . . he is now vaccinated, dewormed, de-flea'd . . . safe, warm, fed, and has adjusted very well to being here in this home.

We have goldfish, too - but I can't seem to get the hang of them. *Sigh* I did better with fish before becoming a mother.

The church Nathan and I have attended for the last decade have a pet blessing ceremony every year -

I dunno - pets are a wonderful part of our life. Life does come with it's hassles and heartbreaks - euthanasia being one.

However, after finding a family member dead of suicide several years ago (very ill and in great pain) - I wish we as people could somehow figure a way through the morass of helping our loved ones to die with dignity if they so choose. I would far prefer that to finding them with their brains blown across the room.

Which is another way pets are blessings - they love us unconditionally - and seem to know when we need comfort, support and love - I remember sitting at my table sick with vertigo and head/neck/back pain (after Grammy used me as a speed bump) waiting for my ride to the emergency room, crying and scared. Obviously, I was not going to wake up my son - but Pepper (who knows not to get on the table) had no such inhibition that night and got right up there with me, purring and rubbing her head against me until help arrived. She also keeps a good eye on Nathan - I can tell if he's sick sick, because she will stay next to him and watch his face without moving.

I dunno - it's a good question, this one of "pets".

I am grateful for the friends we have in my family . . .

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Kwea
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I don't think that the relationship between animal and human is one sided. I think that they gain a lot as well, from meals to warm places to sleep, to somone who loves them and pampers them.

I don't think animals deserve the same rights and treatment as humans though, although I would turn a person in for abuse in a second. We are naimals, but that isn't all we are.

Dogs are my favorite, and I know form experience that dogs love human interaction. My Penney loves being around people, to the point that she freaks non-dog people out a bit.

I think that having a dog is a MUST, adn my wife agrees. I play with my dog as much as I can, and I believe that she is better off with me than in the wild....she is 11, and in the wild she would be dead.

I think that as long as an owner accepts responsibility for the animal, not just when they want to play with them but for good, as long as the animal is with them, then the relationship for both of them is good.

Kwea

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Kwea
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Shan, there IS such a thing as pet health insurance.

Here is a web page on it....try a google search for your area.

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Shan
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I love Jatraquero's . . . they have information about everything!

[Smile]

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plaid
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I think pets are important for folks. Especially for city folks, I think that pets are a good way for us to connect with other animals. (Yep they're domesticated, but still, they do still have that element of "other.")

I've got major problems with people who spend too much money on their pets though (fancy food, expensive vet care, etc.) I value life, but I value human life the most, and when I hear of someone spending thousands of dollars on vet bills to get a few more years of life for their dog, I have a hard time not thinking about all the good that money could have done if it had been given instead to tsunami relief, Physicians Without Borders, Planned Parenthood, etc.

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Noemon
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Paul is right, it depends entirely on the particular human/pet relationship being discussed.

quote:
Can you have a "relationship" with an animal without considering yourself its owner?
Of course! My current cat was a friend before I adopted her. When I was outside at my last house she'd frequently come over and just kind of hang out with me. I'd be raking leaves, and she'd climb up into the crotch of a tree and hang out by my head, or curl up on me when I was outside reading, or go with me when I went on walks. I started referring to her as my cat friend, and the term finally stuck as a somewhat embarrassing name. I didn't feed her for a very long time, so it isn't like she was in it for the food, unless she was very good at planning ahead.

All of my pets have either been strays that have wandered in asking for a home, or have been rescued from people who were planning to kill them, or were taken from animal shelters. I've always thought of myself as theirs as much as I think of them as mine.

There have also been plenty of animals, dogs and cats mostly, that I have had a relationship with without adopting them. Growing up there were always neighborhood dogs and cats that were fed by one neighbor or another, but that everybody in the community knew and was friendly toward.

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Sara Sasse
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I've had much the same experience as Noemon.

quote:
When I was outside at my last house she'd frequently come over and just kind of hang out with me.
That is so sweet. I knew neighborhood cats like this, too. They'd come by just to chat, so to speak. Catch up on how each of us is doing.

Although some believe cats to be stand-offish, that has never been my experience with ones who shared my home. All through my life, the cats I lived with would stalk me, waiting for me to sit or lie down so they could snuggle and roll over for a good tummy rub.

Hungry eyes, little purry rumbles from deep chests. Stalking. I often have to go to a cafe to get any work done. *grin

[ January 02, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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raventh1
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Since I was little, we have had this cat, his name was Lightning. (I say was because now we mostly call him kitty, because being around 20 now he isn't 'lightning' any more.)
I've always thought of him as a little brother in a way, and it's been really tough to watch him grow old and watch his life drain from him over the years. At this point he isn't a clean animal anymore, and I have a hard time seeing how he could be that happy.

When he was little he was an outdoor cat, with our dog (an awesome dog... another story) who when the cat got close to him eating his food and growled several times, snapped at him, and broke his little jaw. We were all heart broken, and we took him to the vet and they wired his jaw shut to fix him up. He of course got better, and got along with the huge older brother of a dog (Buddy, who has since passed on) and enjoyed many years of life outside. I can tell you he enjoyed it because of the way he acted when he wasn't happy, and when he was.

Looking at the same cat today, I don't know what to do, I feel that he isn't happy, and would be better off if we were to put him down. I've known him his, and my entire life.

He is my little brother. I don't own him, and we haven't ever really owned any of the animals we've had. It's always been a good friendship or companionship.

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Vadon
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We own a cat named Sin, we have quite a few very religious neighbors, so we call her Kitty around them... But, think of it this way, look to how a dog bonds to you, they eventually are extremely dependant, and if raised as a puppy in a human home with food for it without work, it comes to adapt to that. You could view pet ownership as a favor, making a pet's life easier.
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Noemon
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One of my childhood cats was named Cin--short for Cinders, because of her fur color. But yeah, some of our more religious neighbors weren't so sure about the propriety of that one until we explained it to them. Then they loved it.
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Boris
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Heh...Here's the view from a pet...
"Let's see, I get shelter, food, water, all the affection I need...So what do I have to give up? WHAT?!?!?!"

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Yozhik
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quote:
Animals are NOT people. So, does that mean we should take them into our homes?
Well, if I don't, they'll sit outside and whine and bark and whine and scratch at the door and whine, until I do.

Luckily we have a dog door now, so they let themselves in and out of their home.

[ January 02, 2005, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]

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Yozhik
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By the way...

To us, it's a papasan chair.
To the Labs, it's a dog bed on a nice bamboo frame up off the floor.

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Tatiana
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I don't own my cats! I don't think you really do own a cat. Each cat owns itself, like any other person. But they do need to bond with humans in order to live. That's how they make their living now, as a species. They are inextricably linked to us.

My cats are my children. I spend any money on them to take care of them that I would on my children. For instance, when I adopted Drive By, her initial medical expenses were more than I have spent on some cars I've bought. People asked me why I wasted so much money on a stray kitten. But she's been the most awesome wonderful cat. She's enriched my life so much. Other people might spend that much money over their lifetimes on coffee or something. Going to the movies, maybe. I get far more enjoyment than that out of Drive By, even if you just view her as entertainment.

But she's so much more than that. All my cats are. They are people, each with their own personalities and quirks. They are very much like children, in that they look to their human as a parent for all of their lives.

They are equals in personhood, though not in independence. You do have to do some things against their will. Neutering, for example, and medical care. But there is no limit to the number of kittens you would have if you didn't neuter, and they would all be diseased and starving. You couldn't possibly care for them well, no matter how rich you were. That's not being a good human to your cat. And if you let them have their way about medical care, you would have to stand by and watch them die, knowing that you had the means to prevent it. Medical care is preferable. They are always delighted to be well, even if they still don't make the connection between being well and that nasty stuff you forced them to swallow.

My criterion for ethical treatment of animals is if I would agree to the same deal. I do think humans mistreat animals too often, both individually and collectively. So many pet owners are irresponsible, and our industries are less than humane. It's always wrong to treat something with feelings as though it has none. You don't treat a living feeling being the same way you would a block of wood. It's just evil to do that. Yet pets if treated well can have happy, healthy long lives full of interest and affection. They benefit greatly from their connection to humans. And they freely and willingly connect themselves to us, as well. All my cats (aside from one litter I let Mouse have) have adopted me, too. They just let me know that I'm their human now.

Humans as a species survived when the other hominids and many of the great apes died out. The reason we did is that we teamed up with other species, cattle, sheep, goats, horses, oxen, wheat, corn, rice. We had this propensity to join with other animals. To see them as "us". It is why our species is not extinct today. So people who think it's unconscionable to devote important resources to animals are mistaken. We benefit from the alliance as least as much as the animals themselves. Indeed, we owe our very existence as a species to this tendency.

"Whatsoever ye do to the least of these, that ye do to me." To me that has to mean all feeling beings. And how can the least not mean the least?

[ January 02, 2005, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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Elizabeth
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One case for ethical pet ownership. I think this dog makes it clear he wants to be around his humans:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050102/ap_on_re_as/tsunami_boy_s_best_friend

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J T Stryker
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I believe that pet owner ship can be very ethical, assuming that you and the pet consider the other equal, like my dog. he and i argue (verbally, i say no, he whines yes, and the discussion begins) sometimes he wins, sometimes he lets me win (he has finally relinquished my bed after 2 years of arguing). But as long as your pet gets all of their shots, and is fixed if so desired. and yes my dog is fixed, but he didn't speak to me for a month afterwards though.

quote:
To us, it's a papasan chair.
To the Labs, it's a dog bed on a nice bamboo frame up off the floor.

really, my dog only gave up on the bed when i got a papasan... I'm not allowed in it, just ask him. if i sit in it, he'll sit and stare for a minute, then he'll bark at me, and then if i still refuse to get out, he jumps in, borrows under me and nips at me.

[ January 02, 2005, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]

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raventh1
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I used to think quite a bit about building an aviary, I honestly don't know why, but I haven't really thought about it in a long time. Thinking about it now, it does make me think that it could work, even how I had planned it, but I don't know if I'm up to that sort of thing.
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Space Opera
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I've been thinking on this question since Jenny posted it. Most pet ownership in itself I don't believe to be unethical - usually it's the relationship between pet and owner that I disagree with.

But, there are certain forms of pet ownership that give me that *wrong* feeling, like the keeping of exotic animals. Tigers are tigers, and they will bite your arm off - give it up, it's been proven. I also have some relatives who keep parrots. They are healthy and well cared for, but it seems wrong to me when I go over there and see these big beautiful birds with clipped wings sitting in their cages.

With *typical* pets, again, I think it's more of a problem with the relationship itself. In my own opinion, it's wrong to get a large dog who needs to run and then expect him/her to sit outside on a chain all day. While I realize that not everyone has a large fenced-in yard, it seems like it would be more prudent to get a small dog that doesn't depend on a lot of outside exercise for its happiness.

But I suppose it's all a matter of opinion. Some people might think it's wrong that we let our dog run free. (He's an inside dog, but I'm talking about when we let him out) Yes, I suppose he could somehow get hurt or maybe even bother someone down the street. But it's impractical to fence in several acres, and we live on a dead-end gravel road. No one fences their dogs around here; the old owners of our house actually laughed when we asked if anyone did. It seems to be an accepted fact that dogs run free - Max already has several "friends" that come to visit him on our property, and at least once we've seen him at the end of the road visiting.

space opera

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mr_porteiro_head
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I'm not a big animal lover myself, but I think that pets are a good way to have citified children learn about life and death.

quote:
Can you have a pet that you don't treat as a child or a slave or a prisoner?

I believe you can, but it is rare to find people who relate to animals with the same respect and honor they extend to other humans.

I distrust people who treat animals as though they were human.

quote:
And can we shift our perspective from that of Dominators of Creation to something else? Are we not animals ourselves?
If we wanted to.
No.

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Strider
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I think the fact of the matter with most pet ownership today, is that we're dealing with domesticated animals. For the most part, these pets would not survive on their own in the wild. We are also, as some have mentioned, dealing with shelters and the like where the animals are to be put to sleep or if not that, are not provided with very nice living conditions. So consider the alternatives to not having a pet because you consider it unethical. The animals die out in the streets. Or they are put to death by shelters. Or they live all their lives in a cage waiting to be adopted.

I think pet ownership is just as rewarding for the pets as it is to the owners. Food whenver they need it. Love. Warmth and shelter from the elements. Playful interaction. Obviously this is not true in all cases, there are bad owners out there that treat animals very inhumanely. And that sucks. And it really hurts the heart to hear some of the horror stories out there of how people treat their animals. I fear even more for the children of people like that.

I guess my point in all this is that I understand the worry that Jenny has, but given the state of things, domesticated animals really benefit and enjoy having a loving owner.

[ January 04, 2005, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Strider ]

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advice for robots
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It breaks my heart whenever I see a dog on a chain in a fenced-in enclosure, laying on the hard-packed dirt and looking extremely sad. That, to me, is unethical.

I can barely stand going to a zoo. That really breaks my heart. I don't think I've been to a zoo in 10 years because I hate seeing so many sad animals.

I like most dogs, but I will never own one unless I have 5 acres in the country for the dog to run around in.

I prefer cats as pets precisely because I don't have to chain them up to "keep" them. There is a little black cat that hangs around our house. We don't let her in and we don't feed her, but we have set up a little bed for her in our carport so she can stay out of the wind. I feel bad for her knowing she's cold, but we just can't adopt a pet right now (and she belongs to the family across the street). Still, she is always around when we're outside, rubbing against our legs and providing fuzz therapy for me. She'd be happy if we adopted her and let her inside and fed her, but I think she's happy now.

[ January 04, 2005, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]

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Strider
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I know how you feel AFR. Leonide and I have three ferrets and two kittens, and have both wanted a dog for a while, but won't get one till we have a place that a dog can be happy in, with a yard and room to run around.

The ferrets probably have it the best. They have their own room now that is blocked off, and their cage is open 24/7. So the move freely in and out at their leisure.

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Teshi
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You know this thread is begging for a dobie, but I refuse to do it.
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BannaOj
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To tie into something Stryker said before. I think that the only consistent argument that can be made for unethical pet ownership is by someone who is a vegan. If you eat meat then you are contributing to the raising of animals with low quality of life. If you are willing to allow the raising of animals to eat, keeping animals for companionship is far less ethically sticky, IMO.

AJ

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Synesthesia
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As long as people take care of their animals, feed them properly and don't abuse them, it's better than them having to survive out in the wild.
Most dogs and cats are no longer built for surviving on their own in the wild without a lot of stress and sickness.
I just wish people would be more responsible when it comes to pets and not let them breed uncontrolled so they just end up spending their whole lives in cages... That's just depressing.

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Yozhik
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quote:
In my own opinion, it's wrong to get a large dog who needs to run and then expect him/her to sit outside on a chain all day
Amen.

quote:
I like most dogs, but I will never own one unless I have 5 acres in the country for the dog to run around in.
How about an acre and a half and an Invisible Fence? Our Labs love it; they have plenty of room to run and play, they are not tied up, and we don't have to worry that they will stray and get hit by a car.

They go in and out through the dog door as they please. When the weather is fine, they play, watch what's going on in the neighborhood, or sun themselves in the driveway. When it's cold and rainy, they snooze on the couch. Seven-of-Nine spends most of her time outside on watch; she's part chow, and chows are natural guard dogs.

Our dogs know where the boundaries are, and since we trained them that it's bad to cross the line, they don't any more, so they hardly ever get the "correction" any more. (The shock is not that bad, by the way; I inflict it on myself several times a year just to make sure the collars are still working.) I have seen Seven chase deer up to the line and then skid to a halt rather than cross it.

And the fence was easy to install; the only hard part was burying the cable around the entire perimeter of the property.

quote:
I distrust people who treat animals as though they were human.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're criticizing those people who spend tons of money on designer doggie outfits and expensive toys. I'll agree with you. I don't think dogs like to wear clothes anyway. (Mishka allows us to dress her in jingle bells and reindeer horns sometimes, but only because she realized after the first time it happened that "reindeer costume"="attention and admiration from a crowd of children.") And as for expensive toys, our critters are just fine with tattered plush animals from Goodwill, tennis balls, and sticks found out in the yard.

On the other hand, if you regard a dog as an object to be used in whatever way you wish, and then thrown away, I've got a problem with that.

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Synesthesia
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I hate it when people keep a tiger as a pet then get suprised when it tries to eat them...
Falconry would be interesting... there are times in which I had my own unkindness of ravens because that would be interesting.
Other than that, most wild animals should not be kept as pets and people should never, ever put clothes on animals...
Simply because most of the time it's more stupid than funny.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I'm saying I distrust people that act as though dogs were people.

But I also think that it's wrong to treat them as though they were pencils.

They are animals. Closer to us than pencils, but still not people.

edit: because duh

[ January 04, 2005, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Kwea
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MPH, I thionk you meant people there in the first line.

But I could be wrong.

[Big Grin]

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Tatiana
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They're all our close cousins, though. I mean the common ancestor of a dog and a human was alive less than 65 million years ago. People talk about "anthropomorphizing" animals, but in large part, they actually ARE anthropomorphic. For instance, cats understand the mapping of corresponding body parts the way a human baby does. A human baby will sometimes stick out their tongue in response to you sticking out yours, which shows that they understand how your tongue corresponds to their tongue. In a similar way, cats that aren't accustomed to human interaction reveal their knowledge of this mapping by interpreting a raised hand as a threat. Among cats, a raised paw means "come closer and I will swat you with my claws". It takes them a while to understand that humans stroke with their "paws", basically using their hands like a cat mother would use her tongue. I've seen wildish kittens go through this learning process many times, shying, at first, from the threat implied in a raised hand, then gradually learning that human hands are sort of prosthetic tongues.

Also, cats rarely distinguish hands from feet. To them a paw is a paw. So if I stretch my foot toward Felicity, she will come and rub her head against it just as she would my hand. Again, she maps her own body onto mine in the correct fashion.

I am glad cats don't warn each other against felimorphizing humans. We get along so well largely because we are a lot alike, because in fact we are cousins. Hunger, fear, affection, pain, surprise, warmth, comfort, peace, they experience much of great importance in life exactly as we do. The relative dominance of smell over vision is a real difference between us, and the feline sense of dignity and utter lack of a sense of humor are another. <laughs> They don't get a lot of our monkey games. The human ability to throw objects seems astonishing and magical to them. But really in most every way, to them we are nothing but large rather clumsy cats. [Smile]

[ January 04, 2005, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]

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Synesthesia
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This topic makes me want to get a cat.
Perhaps one will adopt me once I get around to straightening my apartment.

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Tatiana
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They do prefer things to be clean and neat. However, my sloppy housekeeping hasn't kept many cats from adopting me over the years, so fear not.

I wanted to comment on treating animals as children. I do treat my cats as children, and they are children that will never be adults, in that sense. However, I respect their autonomy and their person-ness. Treating someone as a child doesn't mean treating them as less than a person, to me. They get to make all the decisions about their own selves (other than medical care). I don't force them to accept affection if they don't feel like it right now, for instance. I don't make them wear clothes or function as toys for small children. I don't specify where they must sleep or sit. Many of the arrangements in our home are specifically chosen with their needs and tastes in mind. So while they are my children, they are also equal to me in personhood. I wouldn't shoo a cat out of a chair so I could sit there, for instance.

They freely give up some of their choices to us, because they know we love them and know best. Even though my cats hate taking medicine, yet they still come to me and tell me whenever they aren't feeling good. In many ways, the relationship that I have with my cats informs my understanding of God's relationship to me. It awes and humbles me to think of it that way.

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Synesthesia
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I just would not want a cat or a rabbit to eat these papers or get lost in a box or a plastic bag or something.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
hey're all our close cousins, though. I mean the common ancestor of a dog and a human was alive less than 65 million years ago.
65 million years does not make close cousins.

My cousin that I grew up friends with and introduced me to my wife -- that's a close cousin. [Smile]

[ January 04, 2005, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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mackillian
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The one place in my life that I knew I had unconditional love was from my dog. [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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I'm sorry.
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beverly
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We have domesticated animals that are no longer capable of caring for themselves without human support.

I own guinea pigs. These things wouldn't last in the wild! They are slow, stupid, delicate, and tasty. I am doing them an enormous favor by protecting them, housing them, feeding them, changing their cage, etc. But do they thank me? Nope.

But they are awfully cute, warm, fuzzy, and they "purr". They are basically tribbles with feet. I love having them around. I think it is a pretty good trade off, and they are getting the better end of the deal.

If one of them had a stroke, would I take them to the ER and spend thousands to make sure they got through it? No. I would for my child, but not them. I would, however give them all my TLC to help them to be as comfortable as possible as they suffered death. After all, if they didn't have mankind, they wouldn't be alive at all.

So basically, I don't think animals have the same rights as people, and it bothers me when people treat them that way. Or worse, treat animals better than people. "'Cause people are evil and they hurt other people. Not like my cutsie wootsie little schnookums who wouldn't hurt a fly...."

Now, if I knew that a species of animal were sentient, I would be all for them having equal rights. What was that word OSC used in Speaker for the Dead? I can't remember. But in my mind a non-sentient creature does not have the same rights as a sentient one.

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Synesthesia
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Varlese? I think?
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Noemon
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What are your criteria for sentience bev? If we were to encounter a sentient species, how would we know that we had done so?
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fugu13
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Hey Jenny, checked your email lately?
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beverly
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Noemon: I dunno. Communication would be important, and understanding. I am pretty confident that none of the animals people routinely hold as pets are sentient. I don't know about dolphins or apes though.

I do think that erring on the side of being compassionate to animals is a good idea.

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Noemon
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Yeah, it's a hard thing to define. Anybody else have any thoughts on it?
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