posted
I guess you could spin-off and say "what's the point in teaching our kids to spell if they unlearn it in Middle School/ Jr. High as soon as they start learning word processing programs?"
Also, do you think we've been helped/hindered by calculators? How many mathmatical geniuses have been brought down by the ease of pressing buttons and getting a quick answer?
posted
Let it get below a certain level of correctness, and it's hard to take the poster seriously. Put it all into one paragraph with no punctuation and jr. high level mistakes all over the place, and it become unreadable.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Seriously this time, I think it matters...to a point. As long as it shows a basic understanding of the rules of grammar, I am fine with it.
I am just learning to type properly, and sometimes my thoughts are way ahead of my fingers. Also, there are some types of typos that occur often, where you type adn instead of and, switching the order of the letters within the word. I don't have a problem with that, and I don't think that most people here do either.
However, it also depends on what type of thread you are posting in. If it is a serious topic, people should be able to read it fairly easily so that they are spending time thinking about your points rather than your grammar usage. The whole point of the rules are to standardize the process of writing, and that only works if everyone follows the same set of rules.
To me using the proper grammar is more about respect for the reader than anything else. If I want to communicate with someone, I want it to be easy for them to understand what I am saying. If they are taking the time to read what I have written, then I should take the time to at least try and spell most (or all) things correctly, and to use paragraphs that make the thoughts easier to comprehend.
Anything else is rude.
If I am joking, or in a fluff thread, then I don't really care...I am typing as fast as I can, just to get a punchline in first, or to chat away with someone before they leave.
posted
I remember in Elementry and Middle school spelling was the only thing keeping me from strait A's. In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's the last quarter of school. That was the most wonderful A- of my life (the only A I ever felt I actully had to put forth effort to earn), and the last one anywhere that spelling counted toward grades.
Now if English made sense like Spanish.....
Posts: 147 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: I guess you could spin-off and say "what's the point in teaching our kids to spell if they unlearn it in Middle School/ Jr. High as soon as they start learning word processing programs?"
Even at age 5, when my father let me write letters to relatives in Australia, I always put a capital at the beginning of a sentence and a full stop at the end. I knew that when you take a breath you put a comma, brackets add stuff and names are capitalised.
Sure, I wasn't a pro, but I always knew that if I don't do what I should, I just look stupid.
That, by the way, is why I am the only person I know who writes with capitalisation and punctuation while using IM (since I spoke to 0% of you on IM, that makes sense).
butt i meen how can u rite like dis adn ppl can understand u if ur doin it so stupid
Translation: But - I mean - how can you write like that previous statement in such a way that one would be able to understand? After all, it makes you look stupid.
It's not a matter of dignity, or ease-of-read; Junior High students, except for few exceptions, can write as well as a 7 year old, just with 12 y.o. slang.
Thank goodness I can write; and I speak as onw who spnds half his day with 14-15 year olds. Tha same happens in Hebrew, by the way (except no capital letters exist, and people don't use abbreviations such as "ppl", "u", "ur" and "y").
quote: Also, do you think we've been helped/hindered by calculators? How many mathmatical geniuses have been brought down by the ease of pressing buttons and getting a quick answer?
Yes. Had I not been taught arithmatic at age 4 (I mean, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division of several numbers) and fractions at age 6, as well as simple algebra when I was 10, I'd never be able to get very far calculating stuff in my head.
Just an example that happend an hour ago at school: I am in the advanced group, called "Taglit", and 4 or 5 of us gather around and do the most complex stuff in maths, we call ourselfs the "Taglit SheBaTaglit" (Taglit of the Taglit). I am not in their league of algebra, but I can calculate the square root of 576 in no time. I know the powers of two up until 16777216, and any calculations of numbers between them I can calculate in no time.
For instance, I know by heart that 512 + 256 = 768, I know that 128 - 32 = 96. That's even without a calculation. I went over this stuff due to RAM sizes over the past 8 years...
But still, I can subtract a 3-digit-number from another more quickly than my friend can use his Casio-watch's calculator (depending on the numbers).
Yes, they both sadden us, but those are facts. And I am happy I can write like an adult without any personal strain of putting a full stop at the end of a sentence. It comes naturally. The same with maths.
JH
[ February 01, 2005, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't want you to think I was attacking you Catseye. You're posts just made me curious mostly and raised some questions in my head.
I know you said not to go through your posts....
I think we can handle it, although I admit, I respect posters much less, when they shows no care for making their posts readable. You probably won't find me responding to a thread that starts out with a load of gibberish. On the whole, I think Jatraqueros do very well at caring about readability, and it is one of the things that keeps me coming back to the site, even at 4:45 in the morning.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: I think we can handle it; although I admit <here drop the comma, and use either a colon or "that".> I respect posters much less when they show <no "s".> no care for making their posts readable...
I hope I made TomTom's post make more sense.
BTW, Tom, I'll run through your posts and find eccentricities. OK? (j/k! j/k!)
JH
[ February 01, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do find it funny that people would rather dwell on a grammatical issue instead of the point of statement.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find it interesting some people may not care enough about their point to make a good faith effort to use decent grammar/spelling when communicating it, that it may be more easily understood.
*Hurriedly checks this message for typos and dangling participles...*
-Bok
PS- Dang you all! Well, really just JH, since I am a Daghead threw and thru!
posted
aka "the most" and "the single most" for example.
I’m not about to say that blatant bad grammar doesn’t ruin a good argument. But some things get silly when the true intent is obvious.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The thing is, many times in my life I've said something thta I thought was crystal clear, and found that others couldn't necessarily follow. Remember, comprehension rests with the receiver.
quote:I think we can handle it, although I admit, I respect posters much less, when they shows no care for making their posts readable...
Ironically, that error came from the third or fourth revision of the sentence to make it more readable. I changed from a singular subject to a plural one to avoid a, "he or she shows no care for making his or her posts" situation.
Consider me humbled. Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm often guilty of correcting people. But I don't usually go after split infinitives or dangling participles. If there is a dangling participle, I usually go with a clarifying question rather than excoriating someone for the grammatical flaw.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Grammar got run over by a reindeer, and deservedly so. Any examination of "standard grammar" texts such as the Chicago Manual of Style clearly proves that their "rules" are made up by the none-too-bright. Just cuz some folks ain't got no appreciation for the power of the English language, don' mean that their disability should be the basis for its usage.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm looking forward to the time when nobody has nothing against double negatives.
If I were King, that day would be hastened.
I have found that most people that like to point out that two negatives make a positive are people that have never learned another language.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't use double negatives out of ignorance. I use them (and that only occasionally) because either a) I feel like breaking the rules or b) I think it's a stupid rule (which it is).
It is kind of you to notice the subjunctive, though. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Proper use of double negatives, and knowing the difference between them and a mere positive, is critical in understanding legal writing.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
My written spelling and grammar are fine, but my typing sub-standard. Add to that the fact that my attention is usually divided, and it gets worse. But, I try my best.
Calculators...I don't let my son use one, even when his book calls for it. I think they tend to hurt more than help.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
When I was working at my store the other week, a woman came in with her two children. While waiting for her credit card to authorize, I turned to the kids and asked if they were ready for school to start the next day, as it was the end of winter break. Then came this exchange:
Woman: "We were supposed to start today, but we had orthodontist appointments. I homeschool them."
Me: "Really! I was homeschooled for a couple of years."
posted
Calculators and spell-checkers are just tools, and like any tools, be become more or less dependant on them.
I can imagine somebody bemoaning these new-fangled bronze knives, and how people that use them don't know how to make a good flint knife anymore. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Professor: There is no such thing, in any language, as two positives equalling a negative. Student: Yeah, right.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
OK. I'm not sure how much I think the double-negative rule is stupid, now that I think about it.
If "nobody doesn't like him" meant "nobody likes him", then there is no way to say "there is no person that does not like him".
Let me just say that the rule in English that double negatives are wrong is just as arbitrary as the rule that says that double negatives are proper in romantic languages.
quote: In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's
Off-hand, I'd say that he or she did you no favors.
In most cases I'd agree with that but the teacher saw howmuch work I was putting into spelling and coming up short and that I was on the verge of just giving up. So he made the spelling words a little easier.
When my grades improved a little I actully redoubled my effort. Not to mention I was working myself into an ulcer over my spelling grades (yes I was one of those kids that worried over grades that much).
I found out from my mother years later that my teacher that year spent a lot of time researching kids and spelling to try to find a way to help me with spelling. It came down to learning styles. While I could understand concepts way above my level I just could not Memorize well. Math for example: I did very well with work problems but formulas killed me unless I knew enough about the concepts to make a word problem out of it.
That's also why I tend to spell better in spanish then most native speakers, the concepts behind spelling in spanish are consistent where as in english is mostly just memorizing. So the teacher decided that instead of letting me push myself into an ulcer he decided to help me first bolster my confidince by thowing out a few slightly easier words (that I still had to spend hours a day learning to spell them correctly)and then also teaching me how to use a dictionary and told my mother that this new thing called spell cheack on computers was coming out and to make sure I learned that too. I learned so I really have no excuse other then lazieness for my bad spelling.
And Scottneb, don't worry about me feeling attacked. People have to work pretty darn hard to get me offended. I always try to answer a question given me (and i apoligise if my answers ever soud like I did take offence). I try to be honest about my faults and don't mind it at all if other people are honest about my faults either.
Edit: Edited for grammer but dictionary is still MIA.
posted
Grammar will always be, to a certain extent, arbitrary. There's nothing innately mathematical about language. The current generation seems to have decided that this is yet another manifestation of the absurdity of The Man. Teaching grammar is taken as excessive cruelty and "grammar nazis" villianized.
This is silly. There is nothing restrictive about having to learn a proper (read: accepted) set of rules of usage. The sooner public schools pick up on this, the better.
However, I think Hatrack is an exception to the popular trend. Here, a pretty high standard is set and I see it as a rather helpful atmosphere. I suppose, then, that means a call to higher service to humanity of some sort...
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I lurk on other forums where the standard is higher, but they are heavily, heavily moderated. If you post more than two or three times in standard internet grammar, you get banned.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that Hatrack has a higher standard for grammer and spelling, but as long as someone is making an effort people cut them some slack. I think it is a good combination. This is not a place were people are made to feel like idiots because of small mistakes. They make be teased a little, but that is totally understandable.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: Calculators...I don't let my son use one, even when his book calls for it. I think they tend to hurt more than help.
I use calculators for three things:
1) Long divisions, or stuff that I can do perfectly well, except calculators save time.
2) Squared or higher roots of numbers I do not know (and fail to calculate using my system).
3) Stuff I do not know how to calculate but I know what it means on a scientific calculator.
JH
P.S. I never bring a calculator to school for maths, even though our teacher 'recommends' it for those who can't help it, or 'just in case'. He hates them, by the way.
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: I think that Hatrack has a higher standard for grammer and spelling, but as long as someone is making an effort people cut them some slack. I think it is a good combination. This is not a place were people are made to feel like idiots because of small mistakes.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact looking back I realize now that my 5th grade teacher dumbed down the spelling tests just so I could get strait A's --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Off-hand, I'd say that he or she did you no favors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In most cases I'd agree with that but the teacher saw how much work I was putting into spelling and coming up short and that I was on the verge of just giving up. So he made the spelling words a little easier.
Sweetheart, I suspect you were being teased because straight is misspelled.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
In my opinion, in Cat's eye's case, it doesn't really bother me because it's obvious that he or she is making an effort. It's when people pepper their posts with stuff like ur for your (or you're) or r for are or our that really bothers me.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
or ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
