posted
Why can't we agree here to reject certain widely held beliefs and attitudes and replace them with better ones? Surely we have enough people here to transform public opinion, as our ideas gradually spread through the culture.
The technique is not to argue the point, but merely to speak as if everyone already knew the "new" attitude, and if someone disagrees, you look at him with scorn or roll your eyes and say, "Whatever," and change the subject.
One suggested attitude change:
OLD: Thin people are attractive and healthy and fat people are unhealthy and funny-looking.
NEW: A genial pudginess shows moderation and lack of self-obsession, making pudgy people seem attractive and kindly, and thin people narcissistic and uptight.
Sample transformative dialogue:
Old-fashioned person: Look at that funny fat person! Ha ha! New-attitude promoter: Whatever. Have you seen the great new styles at Casual Male Big and Tall?
posted
I'm all for it. Does being tall and pudgy make me extra attractive? Or does that keep me at the 1 out of 2 stage?
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Not against it, but should we promote "fattness?"
I mean that the obesity in America has greatly increased over the past few years. To the point that it is looking like the new generation will live shorter, fattier lives than their parents.
I do not promote the thin either (even tho I am).
Americans in general need to learn to enjoy the outdoors more often. Heck, even indoors in a gym would be ok.
The thing is, Americans do not exercise nearly enough. I remember as a kid I was always outside the house.....usually mowing the lawn, but I was always active. These days I do a lot of running around at work. That and I am required to maintain physical fitness and readiness.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think it would probably be advisable to get the public's attention away from physical appearance altogether. Though I definitely agree with your overall point.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
That's why I suggested "pudginess." A middle way. The natural proportion of body fat, really. Instead of the hyperlean look that is only natural to a small percentage of the population. It's not really pudgy, except by today's standards, where the natural mean is treated as if it were a hideous deformity.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Raia, while I like the idea of moving away from physical appearance as the standard of judgment for people, human beings are such visual creatures that I don't think it will be possible.
What I'd really like to know is how the "waif" look became the standard of beauty. I know things generally go in cycles in terms of body types that are considered attractive (flappers in the 20s, for example, as compared to the hourglass that was popular in the 40s and 50s). Does it all disseminate from the world of fashion?
And can we possibly create this change, as a relatively small population, with very little ability to place the new potential standard for attractiveness in front of the eyes of the public? (Assuming, of course, that we have no hatrackers who work for fashion magazines, in which case, we're in business.)
Or am I taking this too seriously? If that's the case, then, I'm all for all of us changing the standards; that'll make my goal weight just that much closer. Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
How about we realize that weight distribution is a trait, much like eye color and hair color? The old concept of being "big boned" has a scientific correlate: somatotypes .
Boy, I wish google would let you filter to only get results from .edu sites. And those personality and somatotype ones really bug me.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I spent my youth being ignored by boys and despised by other girls because I was so skinny. I heard the whispered "anorexia" on occassion. One of our best friends once admitted he thought I was a "barfer" when he first met me.
Two babies later and I'm proud to be average, though part of me still remembers being a skelletal size 3 with a certain amount of triumph. The truth is, though, being of moderate size is the more attractive place to be. I'd much rather be healthy and a bit bottom-heavy than skinny and sickly.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Off-topic, but...I LOVE google scholar. It has come in handy so many times for me now in its short life.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
It's a nice idea, but you're talking about a fundamental change in how people perceive the world.
Until we as a people stop using the phrase "better than," some standard will be used as being more desirable. If only so people will be able to say "I'm better than..."
If it wasn't a physical standard, then it would be who had the most cars or the most cows or the most colored, shiny pieces of rock and glass.
Is this a perverse variation on pack hierarchy? We are, at the end of the day, glorified animals.
To me, pudgy means "very slightly overweight", which to me equals "not healthy".
I heartily advocate people being the weight they are supposed to be, but I do not advocate people deliberately eating unhealthily to increase their weight. Eat well, and people will discover they end up the weight they are supposed to be. This may be the normal, or fatter or thinner, but it's natural.
Atheletes could never do it. Young men and women, whose body fat is naturally low would have all sorts of problems later in life, although no different from the reverse problem that exists now.
Humans are supposed to vary in height and in weight, just like they're supposed to in gender and in race. We're a mixed bunch. No new or old stereotype is going to fix that, only a healthy diet.
In my opinion, of course.
Actually, I think that "how to lose weight" articles in young women's magazines should be banned. I think that would be awfully effective. Of course that would cause uproar, as it's censorship. However, I think that if we can ban cigarette ads, we should be able to ban something that's equally dangerous.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I believe, and Scott may correct me if I'm wrong (yes, we've already become close enough for me to address him as Scott), that this thread was supposed to me more on the humour side of things, people.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
If that's the case, it was too subtle for me! (Iiiiiiii ammmm noooot wooooorthy!) I'm also in a militant mood. So every semi-comedic suggestion will be met with militant ideas.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I never understood how my friends who are wonderfully curvy could complain about their weight. I'm thin, but that's the only thing I've got going for me. They have curves in all the right places and a perfect hourglass figure and they're complaining!?
I think it's one of those things where you always want what you can't have.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I take exception to the notion of natural and body type.
Natural refers to our interaction with the environment.
Stand out in the rain and you'll get wet. That's natural. Moving out of the rain or building a shelter is not unnatural.
We overeat because our schedules are rushed, we make poor eating selections because McDonald's is nearby and easy and so on.
A natural consequence is packing on body weight. A natural consequence is increased risk for heart disease, diabetes, arthritis and so on.
You shouldn't exercise in order to aspire to someone else's standard of beauty or physical perfection. I don't need the Taj Mahal to keep the rain off my head.
However, wanting to better your life and reap the benefits to be gained from a physically healthy lifestyle is not unnatural.
quote:Why can't we agree here to reject certain widely held beliefs and attitudes and replace them with better ones?
Because there is no silent force of nature as powerful in its ignorance as "common sense," which doesn't usually contain much in common with sense at all.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Aesthetics are highly personalized - I've known a woman who complained about having breasts that were too large (a small c-cup, I think) and right next to her was a woman who would have killed for her breasts (she was an average a-cup).
Blac's observation about the grass being greener is very true, but I also believe people want to find something wrong with themselves and women are, for various reasons, more inclined to do so than men.
It's a fine line from being unhappy with your physical appearance to an unhealthy disorder that warps your perception of yourself. And that's even harder because its amazingly difficult to get an objective perspective from the inside.
posted
I think any standard of beauty runs the risk of turning racist. I take issue with thr non-white supermodels and actresses we adore. Sure, they come in all colors now, but you'll notice that the Halle Berrys and Lucy Lius of the world still have very European features - long, oval faces and prominent cheekbones.
How is an ethnically Tongan girl supposed to feel about her wide, flat face that no amount of make up or diet is ever going to change? In the classic Mormon flik Johnny Lingo, they showed a story of an "ugly" girl who was still accepted and turned out to be an "eight-cow woman." You'll notice, though, that even though Mahana was ugly to her Polynesian peers, she was thin and had chiseled European features and to the American audience she turned out to be a total fox.
We like tall models? Mexicans are short and thick-waisted. We like slim models? Africans are curvy and big-breasted. We like stick-straight hair? Jews and Italians and Arabs and Brazilians can only look hot when they fry and over-chemically process their hair.
No matter what we change the "norm" to include, we're excluding someone because of their genes. That's where the problem is.
Not that I wouldn't mind it if pasty white, plump, hairy German genes were to come into vogue; I just don't think it would be very egalitarian either,
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:every semi-comedic suggestion will be met with militant ideas
.... and assimilated! I'm with you, comrade!
One of my favorite parts of being constantly humorous is the flip side of seeing the grim seriousness behind all types of humor.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Each race should have many standards of beauty - and the more accustomed we become to different physical types, the more we can, on a personal level, see the beauty in every physical type.
But the fashion industry is about making money, so the types they promote are likely to be the ones they think will appeal to the majority of their market segment, which is usually "rich women with more money than brains, who think what looks good on a skinny model will look good on them, but they're wrong."
As for the cycle of favored body types, it's usually about money.
When only rich people could get fat, then stout people were considered beautiful. When only poor people ever got tans, then lovely pure untanned skin like rich people had was considered attractive.
Now, when only the rich have the leisure to get a tan and only the rich can easily afford the time to keep their bodies honed to perfection, then those who wish to be "beautiful" will sacrifice in order to try to acquire the "look" of the rich. At present, that means trying to look like a convict sentenced to hard labor - dark-tanned, heavily muscled, with no body fat and very little clothing.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
The real idea is to stop to have a behaviour drive by the apparence. When i look somebody, i reject my a priori as much as possible. Apparence may be a mask. A beautiful and charming person may be a perfect horrible man (or woman).
I try to look the good side of everybody. I am convinced every body have a good side. Maybe very little, but one.
That's my opinion.
Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Boon
unregistered
posted
My husband thinks I'm beautiful whatever size I am.
I wish I were healthier, so I could have more fun with my kids. But I don't really care what size my pants are.
I don't care what size your pants are, either.
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I just wonder how you know what size you Are Supposed To Be. How do you know??
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boon
unregistered
posted
I don't know, and I don't care.
Like I said, I don't care what size my pants are, I just wish I were healthier. I'm working on that, but a smaller pant size is not the goal.
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posted
That's what I mean. How do you tell what body type/size/proportions/whathaveyou is healthy for you as an individual?
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boon
unregistered
posted
I'll be there when I feel good. When I can run with my kids in the field without being winded, when I can bike for miles without feeling like my legs will fall off, when my face doesn't turn beet red when I climb a flight of stairs, then it will be right.
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I guess I'll have to wait til there's a cure for diabetes because I can never tell the difference between being out of shape and having bad blood sugar.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I think a new assumption should be that perfectly coiffed hair is out and the just rolled out of bed look is in. Not the manicured, just from the hairdresser, just rolled out of bed look, but the real, half of your hair is pushed-up on the side and flat while the other half is reaching out for your neighbor's ear, just rolled out of bed look.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Why can't we agree here to reject certain widely held beliefs and attitudes and replace them with better ones?
This hinges on the word "better." If you mean more popular, and in this case, being overweight is strikingly popular, then the answer is easy: I'm not willing to undermine the truth in the name of making fat people feel good about their shameful habits. It's another instance of rigging the game that I talked about in the "tricknology" thread.
For the most part, I look at fat people with the same disdain most people reserve for people who don't brush their teeth. It's not only a sign of bad hygeine, I worry about their priorities, which indicate their character. I don't know if you are arguing for new attitudes or new plattiudes.
You can say I'm a product of a market culture, but I think I'm firmly in the camp that people need to stop eating so much fast food, have more salads, drive less and bicycle more. Short of that, they should live with the shame. I wouldn't be averse to spending tax dollars on public education with respect to poor dietary habits.
There was a special on MSNBC last week concerning Houston, the fattest city in the US in the fattest state, and the reason why people were so fat were because they are cheap, the weather is awful so people spend more time indoors or in their cars, and they are swelled with the entitled feeling that they should be able to eat anything they want when they want to eat it.
I don't think that standards of beauty are as arbitrary as you make them out to be. There is a reason why the statue of David doesn't have a excess belly.
quote:There is a reason why the statue of David doesn't have a belly.
Yeah. Michelangelo was so proud of himself for knowing the human musculature system that he couldn't quite grasp the concept that not all people have such well-toned muscles that you can see each one of them under their skin. Have you ever seen his paintings of females? They could break the average guy in half!
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:For the most part, I look at fat people with the same disdain most people reserve for people who don't brush their teeth. It's not only a sign of bad hygeine, I worry about their priorities, which indicate their character.
posted
Maybe we can genetically engineer the next generation so that their brains are worn as a second skin. Then people can judge you by your intellect, not your body!
New Generation catcalls: "Damn, look at that medula oblongata!"
posted
Overeating is a symptom of many kinds of debilitating situations, including depression or addiction. But just because the root cause is not always gluttony, I'm not one to call it okay. That's like excusing violent criminal behavior because the perpetrators are in the midst of impoverished circumstances.
posted
Overgeneralizing is a symptom of many kinds of debilitating situations, including ignorance and lack of education, and intolerance. But just because the root cause is not always pettiness, I'm not one to call it okay.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I'm a fat bigot. I'm also a murder bigot, a terrorist bigot, a drug bigot, a smoking bigot, and a suicide bigot. And I'm shamelessly biased in favor of spinach and broccoli.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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