posted
That's not entirely fair, kat. he's been unreasonably and imo, uncharacteristically unfeeling and nasty lately...but I don't think anyone who could appreciate our Mr. Card's works could truly have an ugly soul.
Just a soul in need of some fine-tuning. Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
He has to know how horrible the things he is saying are - not just this thread, but all of the bigoted, hateful remarks. It may not be a total loss, but it is not beautiful or good.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It has been interesting to think about these issues. This morning as I was putting on make up and styling my hair, I was thinking how much easier it is to buy and use beauty products than to loose the weight I want to loose. I' ve lost it before and it took months and months of thinking differently about food and eating less and exercising for at least an hour a day. I'm getting closer and closer to 40 and although I love to exercise, I realize that injuries are getting to be more and more of an issue with my weight. Is it healthy to expect myself to always be able to run a 10K? Injuries have gotten in the way of running and so I adapt (I spent hours last summer on the eliptical trainer re-reading the Alvin series AND The Wheel of Time). Now I'm back to running and I don't read as much.
I have read recently about the habits, urges, and assumptions of a woman who was very overweight. I found that her internal dialogue was not that different than mine. I don't want to exercise when I hurt. I want to eat more and more and more and more ice cream. I feel horrid shame after I eat a second bowl. My exceses are smaller but I am convinced that the temptation is so similar. How can I look on her as disgusting when I battle the same feelings with various degrees of sucess?
Posts: 26 | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm fat and it's all my fault. Is that so hard to say? Is it so hard to take ownership of our shortcomings?
I think Irami's comments are, in general, true but perhaps missing the signifant fact that just because someone is obese, fat, that doesn't erase their other good qualities, and that we shouldn't assume that their obesity is a character flaw--though that is probably true. But so what if it is? Unless we have some emotional stake in that person's well-being, what reasons do we have for inflicting pain and suffering on that person with thoughtless words? It's not our place to push our views on others unless we absolutely have to.
I would rather our ideals of physical beauty that we look up to involve excellence-- Olympic athletes, David--than average 'pudginess'. On the other hand, I think that we should also understand that there are many different kinds of 'beauty' and just because one person may be deficient by one standard, that doesn't mean that they aren't champions in others that may far outweigh (*ahem*) their flaws.
I like Irami and I appreciate the fact that he's honest, politely honest for the most part, about where he stands and doesn't fling platitudes, pleasantries, and one-line snide, bitchy comments around like the rest of you lazy bastiges do to sugarcoat what he really believes.
Even though I think in this instance he could have phrased what he said a little more politely, and that he left out a lot of nuance, I think we should appreciate that his comments give us far more to think and talk about, and are more honest and forthright, than a lot of what's been said in this thread.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow. I never meant this to be anything but light-hearted. I picked weight as an attitude I'd like to see change merely because I have a weight problem myself, and because it's something that is out of control with the worship of anorexia (even as we blame society for it).
I guess I didn't read Irami's posts carefully enough, but I didn't see anything that exceptionable about them. To make a blanket statement that there's something wrong with his soul is simply out of line - unless this is somehow a "joke" whose point I'm missing because I haven't been around Hatrack enough.
Here's a rule of thumb: If you wouldn't speak about an alcoholic or an addict that way, then don't speak about an obese person that way, either.
Of course, that may be inviting a lot of anti-addict and anti-alcoholic comments, so maybe I should just leave well enough alone.
But let's leave judgments of people's souls up to God.
But the fact is, I have compared notes with a lot of friends, and there are quite a few who have similar eating and exercise habits as I do -- yet weigh considerably less.
Now, that does not mean that I am absolved of my responsibility to improve my health. It is something I am working on.
But neither is it accurate -- or even helpful -- to say "I'm fat and it's all my fault."
Might be more useful for some people to say "I'm a heartless jerk and it's all my fault."
Abby, I love the fact that you see yourself as an Amazon warrior. I'm sorry if you thought I would laugh. If I would have, it would merely have been because the image fits so perfectly. There ought to be a story about you in the book I have by my bed, Turn the Other Chick. (((((Ryuko)))))
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Down south, Many people are naturally big, but most of us are avid outdoorsmen or women so we are in shape. I am one of the few who could be called "Fat". I am an avid sports player, especially football, and I have tried many diets, but nothing seems to work. I have learned to accept my bigness and think of it as a positive. I'm glad I met someone who loves me for who I am, not my body size, and I am sometimes happy to big big. Punks tend to shy away from messing with bigger people because they think we are dangerous. Also, most of the people down here are mainly muscle, with only a small amount of fat, but it appears to be more becuase of our size.
Posts: 16 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just want credit for not Dobie-ing this thread. The inside of the lip is raw.
You see, personal grooming has achieved new heights of diversity and wild variety. I know, because I've gotten exposed to a lot of the, shall we say, less-sunburned areas of Madison in my line of work.
It's a different world, Old Farts, than where we come from.
This week I realized that my calves are getting really cut, from all the biking and stuff. Trouble is, I think the muscular chick look is much worse than the soft, matronly look. *sigh*
I don't know what I weigh, but I'll bet it's more than anybody would guess. In any case, I don't find it an accurate measure of anything, except weight, natch. So if I ever go up in the space shuttle and they have to calculate how much fuel to use for me to reach excape vellocity, weigh away.
But it isn't an accurate measure of health. Even when I was so skinny they used to pass me around and try to guess my weight, no one ever got it. I think it's because I look white but I have a lot of Native American blood, and the bone density is different.
In eighth grade I was underweight for my height, and fit. I have lots of muscle and big bones, however, so all the guys (they were friends so it was all in good fun) always made fun of me because I weighed 145 lbs. In eighth grade! That was a lot. (ahaha, not anymore )
posted
I do not believe we can change public opinion of what is beautiful because to do that you have to be in a position or power or in a position others want to be in.
The rich decide what is beautiful because most people want to be rich and not have to deal with the daily pressures of working to support their family.
I personally do not like the overly thin look. I am much more into people who are in shape (very different). I think a person who works out and is into their personal fitness is attractive. It shows motivation, dedication, and desire. While these are only a few characteristics that make up what I look for in a person they are some of them.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
With respect, Mr. Card, has your wife read the same posts Irami made?
I'll refrain from quoting his comments verbatim, but his posting was abusive, scornful and derogatory.
I believe a number of people have taken exception to his categorizing and self-righteous, condescending arrogance on a topic that is, for many, a sensitive and sore point.
posted
I'm so sick of appearances being the measure by which people are judged! Why can't we judge them by how much they care for others, or how fun they are to hang with, or what they like to read?
I am the skinny girl in a circle of larger friends. I think my friends are beautiful, but they all seem to have issues with their bodies. They really don't realize that I find them absolutely lovely, paragons of womanhood. They have shapely bosoms, warm arms, and sweet faces. Their bodies of various sizes are good to hug, supportive of their children, and sexual to their spouses. We bellydance together for exercise, and they move so beautifully (while uncoordinated I stamp and curse because I can't get those beautiful curvy moves.)
But they are all amused because I am now pregnant, and they can watch their skinny friend get fat. I feel like a lab rat. Why should my metabolic rate, that I honestly cannot control, make me the freak?
Anyway, I hope all you Hatrackers will look in the mirror, really look. You'll see sharp, intelligent eyes, gorgeous smiles, bodies that can carry you places and do things regardless of their dimensions. You are beautiful. And the reason I can say this is because all of you choose to do beautiful things with the bodies you have. You write, play, visit friends, support the weak and grieving, garden, speak your minds, rejoice with those who rejoice, give time and money and energy to good causes, bear children, father children, care for your families; myriads of healthy and joyous pursuits. I find you beautiful, because your shapes are part of you.
As long as you feel healthy, and are able to do the things you want to do, then all is right with the world.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Scott, the 48 hour diet cannot be good for you. A couple overweight people in my ward gave it a go, and lost massive amounts of weight in a short, short time. But it just doesn't seem healthy to me.
On the other hand, Kristine looked great at the Bailey's Crossroads signing, and I didn't notice your weight gain. (Though you were wearing a black half-turtleneck, which I thought was academic of you. . . and black is so slimming, you know?)
Anyway-- I applaud the discipline it must take to abstain from all but one meal every 48 hours-- but URRGH! I just don't see how it can possibly be healthy.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Perhaps if you see it as a sort of fasting. But it would indeed be hard on your body. You'd have to be super-careful to make sure you were getting adequate nutrition. And some nutrients don't stay in the body as long as others. I hope anyone who chooses to change their diets in order to lose weight will carefully examine their options and make sure they are not sacrificing essential dietary needs in the pursuit of a lower weight. Also, realize that diets to lose weight should be SHORT TERM - you don't want to lose weight indefinitely. Far better to shift into healthy eating patterns you intend to keep for the rest of your life. And healthy exercise patterns. I am no authority, but it seems if you did that, your weight would naturally shift into something that is healthy for you.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have issues with my personal body image. I know it hasn't always been accurate in the past. When I was young, I was relatively skinny, but my doctors told me I needed to lose 30 pounds because I was over the high end of the weight range for my height. They ignored the fact that I was at a healthy weight and was extremely strong (I could pick up the front end of my car. Granted, it was a back-pocket car, but still.) I believe them. Them, and my mother who used to yell at me every day about how fat I was.
I was stupid to believe them, but believe them, I did.
Sleep disorders, hormone imbalances, a sick gallbladder, and a bunch of other health problems, and voila! I gain weight. Now, I really am fat.
Except.
Fahim and I meet online. We chat. We fall in love. We run webcams so we can see each other. He doesn't understand what I'm talking about when I say I'm fat. As far as he's concerned, it isn't true. We meet in person, we get married, we're still in love. We have a conversation about my body image. I'm fat, I say. He still looks completely perplexed. How can I possibly think that? He just doesn't understand. "You're not fat," he says, matter of factly. It's just not within the realm of possibilities with him.
I love him even more than I did already.
Am I overweight? Could I stand to lose some? Of course. But in his eyes, it doesn't matter. To him, I'm beautiful the way I am.
This is a huge gift. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
He must be punchy-silly today (my normal state of mind).
If you check foobonic, you'll see that this topic is a hot one at our place. I'm 125, but Nene' is, well, much heavier. My stress is to talk about health issues, not appearance. She is walking now, and I support her whenever I can.
Besides, my tastes run toward the... er... abundant side. Posts: 1843 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think weight is that big of a deal. It's unhealthy, it causes complications, it constricts lifestyles, but in sum, it's a minor issue.
It's not morally arbitrary, like race or eyesight, or being left handed. There are choices involved, and blame should be assessed and public measures should be taken. With respect to pregnancy, not even the medical profession can explain all of the changes that happen in a woman owing to pregnancy. It's one of the many reasons I would not want to be a woman.
What I do resent is what I consider a powerful segment of people conspiring to delude each other and the public without respect to the truth. This isn't merely a weight issue, it's the reason why there are seperate sentencing guidelines for crack and cocaine, it's the reason why there are idioms on the SAT, this excuse-making and convenient rejiggering bleeds from minor issues to major issues, and I wanted to stop it right here. A lot of people are fat because they are entrenched in poor lifestyle habits and routinely make poor choices. The question isn't whether these choices are poor, rather, the question is whether we are going to do anything about it, or are we going to behave like the cigerette companies and try to brand obese as cool.
posted
"being fat is on the same par as being a murderer or a terrorist now."
In fairness to Irami, I'm not sure he was saying that. I think he's saying that he feels a natural repugnance when faced with a fat person, and that he feels this repugnance is justified in most cases because it reflects at least one or two relatively minor character flaws. This is perfectly in keeping with other elements of his personality, which is unapologetically judgemental on a number of issues.
I do not mind, quite frankly, that he believes fatness to be unhealthy and would like to work to reduce it. Big whoop. He's entirely right.
What bothers me is that he considers repugnance a valuable social tool to advance this cause. He and Scott have both written about the many useful products of shame; on this, it appears they agree.
posted
I am also concerned about this 48 hour diet. You need to look into issues such as starvation induced cortisol resistance, which will make you fatter in the long run. Sleep deprivation also overstimulates the cortisol, which leads to the insulin resistance seen in those U of Chicago studies. I think it would be a good bet that consumption of caffeinated beverages may also affect the insulin resistance.
If I were to compare being overweight to other "moral crimes" it would be homosexuality. Are you born that way or did your parents make you that way or do you like being that way? Doesn't matter, I don't have a right to hate you for it. I'm a little that way myself.
I'm in a 12 step group for my compulsive eating, the general idea being that I have used food or lack thereof to avoid dealing with emotional pain over the years, and so I have been working on facing that pain and doing other things with it and avoiding certain foods.
Before I really got the message of 12 step, I probably would have agreed with Irami. I even went through a phase where I wondered how we could have fat church leaders. But I fortunately grew past that. No one is perfect. Why measure my weakest area against someone else's strength?
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Perhaps that's a public attitude that ought to change. Can we be content NOT understanding exactly everything that happens? Pregnancy is an awesome experience - and it's weird, too. Nothing to bring you to earth, faced with the limitations of your body, like pregnancy. Nothing to elevate you to the Ultimate Mysteries of Life and Death like bringing a wee one into the world. I think pregnancy is a really amazing transient state.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
How about this for a rule of thumb: Your body should be able to take you anywhere you want to go and let you do whatever you want to do.
If my body allows me to carry a 70-pound backpack into the Uintahs this summer, I'm satisfied; forget what other people think.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Your body should be able to take you anywhere you want to go and let you do whatever you want to do.
I don't think so. If you want to hit seventy home runs or be Mr. Universe, I've heard it helps to take steroids. In the opposite extreme, I've been told that gymnasts routinely are pushed to do awful things to their body in the name of getting a better score.
posted
The human body is disposed for certain activities, and the line seperating appropriate exercise, ritual self-mutiliation/prodigality is grey. High school wrestlers cut massive amounts of weight to get a competitive advantage. I don't know how I feel about this particular practice, but I know that it requires thought. There are issues of autonomy, respect, and propriety are involved, and maybe I'd lighten up if there weren't anything at stake, but I think issues of autonomy, respect, and propriety are important, and should be spoken to with due severity.
quote:I'm so sick of appearances being the measure by which people are judged! Why can't we judge them by how much they care for others, or how fun they are to hang with, or what they like to read?
Wasn't it you who started an entire thread about how much you like the attention of being pretty? That was a while ago, and maybe you've changed your mind, but I don't think that there is anything wrong with that.
Tom,
My spelling is awful, and my room is a mess. Both of which could be rectified with better habits, but I'm too lazy to do anything concerning either. I'm not proud of it, but it's the case, none the less. I even organize myself around my deficiencies, choosing smaller apartments because I figure that that's less room to clean.
Mr. Card,
quote:But let's leave judgments of people's souls up to God.
Thanks for the defense, but I don't mind FriscoProofKatAlias' comment towards the ugliness of my soul. Somethings are better spoken of in the open, and I think we should try to judge appropriately the quality of other's character.
All of this leaving judging up to God is pretty talk, but if remember correctly, you are a fan of pre-emptive military action, i.e., action based directly on perceived notions on the quality of a person's character.
I'm not saying this is wrong. I am saying that its a queer sort of privilege to say that it doesn't belong to man to judge a person's soul in one instance, then change your mind the moment you feel as though you have something dear at stake. _____________________________________
I should be clear. I don't have a problem with obese people who notice their obesity and are on a reasonable plan to do something concerning it. This is one of those areas where intentions count, in my book, for a great deal.
It's the willfully obese, too caught up in their own glory to say "no" to themselves, or seek out and maintain a program that will help them say "no" to themselves that I can't be bothered with.
A lot of my friends are alcoholics. The ones who are dealing with it, as slowly as it takes, I find to be wonderful human beings. (Yet another judge on the quality of ones soul. We want to let in praise but rid ourselves of blame, can't we see that they are two sides of the same coin?) The alcoholics who worship Bukowski and want the entire world to orient themselves and bask in their addiction, usually don't stay my friends very long.
quote:shouldn't judge a person's soul...something dear at stake
Yeah, I don't mind fat people until everyone in our department chips in for pizza. Then I know my share is at stake.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
mimsies - I read your posts and listened to you talk about the cysts, and I wanted to tell you I feel where you are.
With polycystic ovarian disease losing weight is darn near impossible, so I understand. I've done herculean feats to lose weight and not been able to do it. I've tried everything from fanatical exercise to starvation type diets and still been heavy.
The best shape I was ever in, I was working as a waitress at night and attending college during the day, walking the campus, I ate well, and I wore a size 6. But if you looked at me on paper, I was still 40 pounds overweight. Forty pounds! And a size 6!
I have no idea where I carried all that excess weight. My doctor told me women with PCOS could always fool the guess your weight people, because they were always heavier than they looked.
So now, I have thrown away my scale. I am trying to get healthier now, and yes I'd like to wear smaller clothes, but my main motivation is the ability to keep up with my kids. Yesterday we were riding bikes and scooters and I got tired earlier than I wanted to. I spent too long fighting depression and eating to make myself feel better, and I paid the price - now I want to fix it. So yes, some of this is my fault, and I'm not blaming the PCOS for all my weight. It makes it harder to lose, but I have only myself to blame for putting it on.
But here's what is upsetting me about Irami's attitude the most. I have no doubt that had he seen me when I was a size 6 he'd think I was worthy of his respect for my physical condition. But if he'd seen my stats on paper, he'd think I was lazy and should be ashamed of myself.
Weight is so arbitrary. When you see someone you have no idea what they've been through. They may have just given birth to twins. They may have PCOS. They may be on medications that cause them to gain weight, or have a lot of edema.
Judging people by how heavy they appear is no different to me than judging them by the color of their skin. Personally, I'd rather do neither.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I have no doubt that had he seen me when I was a size 6 he'd think I was worthy of his respect for my physical condition. But if he'd seen my stats on paper, he'd think I was lazy and should be ashamed of myself.
Even if we pretend that it's that simple, in the first case I would have been right and in the second case I would have been wrong. Somethings, like fitness, are often best judged by appearance. When I see the smoke, I think fire. When I see someone with glasses as thick as mine, I imagine that they can't see too well without them. And when I look at Ruben Studdard, I think, "He has a great voice and a lovely smile, but Man, that guy must have a lot of junk around his heart." ______
This actually has me thinking on good and bad souls. If we temporarily throw out right and wrong, it's worth noting that many times excessive behavior reveals itself as virtues. All of those manic/depressive poets and drug addled artists did beautiful work that they may not have produced without the presence of their vice.
If my understanding is correct, the God of the new testament doesn't have a bad side. I think that narrows ones idea of good or Godliness. I'm thinking about the Greek Gods who all have a bad sides, this side is extricably tied to their good sides, all different facets of the same quality. For example, Hera is the essence of wifely fidelity, and as glorious as this is, it leads her to commit audacious crimes born from jealousy, which are inextricably tied to her qualities of wifely fidelity. The same quality reveals itself in different ways. I'm quite taken with the implications of this idea. It's not new, it's as old as the human condition, and I've been thinking on it for a few years now, and I still haven't figured it all out.
posted
w00t! Size 6 and 40 lbs overweight? If I fit into a size 6, I could care less what the scale said. Kudos to you for tossing it. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a dear friend who eats a diet that makes mine look like crap, doesn't eat sweets, runs 4 miles every night, hikes, swims...she ran the Seattle half Marathon earlier this year. I eat decently, but love chocolate and pasta and cheese, walk a mile a day, maybe garden a little. She will never, ever be as small as I am. Her kids are all way bigger tham nine, too. Eating right and exercise are very important, but sometimes genetcis play apart too.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that a person can intuit health and care from ways other than size, even proportion. I don't know if these qualities can be reduced singly to pounds, dress sizes, how the weight is carried, or anything like that. I think the human mind knows this and does complex work before saying, "That guy is too fat." It's whole package, and I think, to an informed mind, it can be evaluated by appearance.
posted
Scott, I wouldn't comment on anyones soul here, because how would I know about the condition of it? However I do have a problem with someone who equates being obese with having a character flaw, and I take exception to him passing any sort of judgment on those people, regardless of if he personally knows them or not, based solely on appearance (and his own preconceived, unsupported beliefs).
I thought that was a point you were making in your first post, too.
I am not saying that being overweight is a good thing, or that people need to make excuses for their weight problems. However, I STILL find it amazing that Irami doesn't see the hypocrisy of judging people solely on their appearance, but then calling foul every time he thinks race could have been an issue on just about anything.
I guess it is only OK to be close-minded and bigoted if it is something that doesn't affect him in a personal manner.
Keep in mind that the standards as to what is acceptable have changed more than once, and that even doctors can't agree on what is healthy or not. When I was in the army, I always had to be weighed, because I am only 5'6'-5'7' tall, and according to their weight charts, which were made pre-1965, I was overweight. At 158 lbs, I was overweight. You could count my ribs under my tee-shirt, and when they did a body fat measurement I only had 17% body fat, way under their 22% max allowed....but I had to be weighed every time, 4 times a year, for the whole 3 years I was in the service.
There are a lot of people who could stand to lose a few pounds, but either can't do so, or won't....and that is their choice. As long as they aren't suing McDonald's for making them fat ( ), I don't have any say in what they do about their weight....if they do anything at all.
If it isn't a problem to them, then it isn't one for me, most of the time.
But the very thought that someone feels morally superior to anyone because of their weight makes me nauseated. Lots of people have problem with excess but are thin, and lots of people who can't seem to lose weight naturally have undergone a potentially dangerous, life threatening surgical operation just to lose the weight....showing me that it wasn't just a "moral weakness" or lack of moral strength that had been their problem. If anything they are more concerned with weight than we are, and are willing to risk everything to get rid of it.
I still think that Irami's willingness to act this way shows tells us more about his character than it does about the physical condition of the person he has judged and found lacking.
I find myself agreeing with Tom.....
There is more than one reason I am glad I am not Irami....and none of those reasons have anything to do with his race.
posted
Was anybody here surprised when Clinton had heart trouble? Did you need to look at his EKG? Did you need a cholesterol count? Nope, all you needed to do was watch him eat, and you knew there was trouble brewing.
In 1992, when everyone was slapping him on the back, laughing with pride about the man's appetites, I think we would have served him better, if instead of being in awe and indulging him, more people said, "Whoa, Bill, I don't think you can eat whatever you want to whenever you want." And I'm sure at least one person said that for every five who were eager to serve him another helping. That one person was probably considered a prude, ruining a good time.
quote: I should be clear. I don't have a problem with obese people who notice their obesity and are on reasonable plan to do something concerning it. This is one of those areas where intentions count, in my book, for a great deal.
So apparently you can tell just by looking at someone that they're working on it.
And I can't help but wonder what "glory" has to do with being permanently fat.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Was anybody here surprised when Clinton had heart trouble?
Would you be surprised to learn my sister-in-law has extremely high cholesterol?
You might be if you saw her. And followed her around and watched her eat.
Hers is entirely genetic, she weighs 115 pounds, wears a size 5-6 and detests fast food and eats sweets very rarely. Extremely healthy woman, to look at her.
Yet her cholesterol is extremely high and there is a family history of heart disease, and yes, all her family members that died of heart disease were also thin.
There is much more to know about a person's health than looking at their appearances.
I am overweight, but my blood pressure is extremely low and my cholesterol is within normal ranges - much lower than my skinny sister-in-law.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Non-smokers get lung cancer, and cigar smokers live to be 100, but there is a reason that doctors breath a sign of relief when they find out that their patient isn't a smoker, and inwardly grown when they see a new patient is a obese.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
If I would have, it would merely have been because the image fits so perfectly. There ought to be a story about you in the book I have by my bed, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I almost wrote a story for that anthology. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
), I don't have any say in what they do about their weight....if they do anything at all.
