posted
Give me a break, Irami. There are plenty of people whose tendencies toward overweight -- mine, for instance -- are only partly due to choices they make. Genetics play a HUGE role.
I have friends who are super-skinny and work out many hours a week, and I have friends who are super-skinny and couch potatoes, and friends who work out many hours a week and will NEVER be skinny.
Are there health issues to being overweight? Certainly -- I'm with Boon on this, I want to get healthier so I can feel better. If it became easier to find clothes, that would be a bonus. But not the goal.
And shame is not only unwarranted but exceedingly counterproductive.
Megan and Katarain are both absolutely correct. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: To me, pudgy means "very slightly overweight", which to me equals "not healthy".
I am in fantastic health. My muscle tone is great, I eat a healthy, varied diet. My doctor had nothing but praise for my healtha at my last check-up. He even tried to talk me into having another baby.
I bike 17-34 miles regularly, and pull a tagalong when I do it. My treadmill test takes forever, because my cardiovascular health is so good it takes some doing to get my heart rate elevated. I am healthy.
I am not, however, as thin as pop culture would suggest I should be. My doctor says I'm not overweight.
I will tell you this, though. I like my dark hair and pale skin, because it's me. It's natural. Friday night (after Sin City), my beloved and I went out for a bite with our friend, and we had to wait for a seat. Evidently, I was sitting next to a girl with blond stripes in her hair and an airbrush tan ( I didn't see her). When we left, My Beloved told me how glad he was that I didn't want to look like that.
I'm happy being me. My husband is happy. I'm not a covergirl, but I am NOT unhealthy, either.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Thanks rivka, but I'm not fishing, I'm being realistic. I just spent an afternoon with a friend of mine who insisted we get our pictures made together. *wince* I hate having my picture made.
I can see it. Fifteen pounds less, and I'd be Sandra Bullock, but Id just as soon be ME, Ya know?
Trev, hold the ice. I know I have a certain charm. I don't really GET it, but I know it's there (waiting outside for my hubby at the theater, some kid started with the eye-contact and smiling thing. The hubby showed up just in time to see some CHILD ask me what time it was ).
I've seen my mother cause grown men to push and shove for the chance to open a door for her. Her attitude was that all that was just temporary, surface, and therefore not important.
That's the attitude I want, is all. Just me, being me.
But I do understand the idea of being at odds with that stupid voice that says you aren't such and such, so you aren't good enough.
quote: I am not, however, as thin as pop culture would suggest I should be. My doctor says I'm not overweight.
Then my comment does not apply to you, Olivetta . I'm not sure if you were agreeing or contesting what I said, but I'm fairly sure you were contesting.
If you are the weight you are supposed to be, if you are eating healthily, exercising blah de blah, then you are not "overweight".
My badly-put point was that "pudgy" to me probably means fatter than what people think of pudgy, and that generally means overweight. I wasn't sure what OSC meant by advocating pudgyness, although I assumed he did not mean what I would define as pudgy.
Thin people to me are not "normal" they are "thin". Normal is anything from "thin" up to what I understand OSC defines as "pudgy". My pudgy starts when his "pudgy" leaves off. I think.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Irami, To a certain extent, I can see what you are saying. There is a level of distaste that most people feel when they see a very overweight person. A cringing inside. In some people, this reaction might come from a fear of finding that weakness in themselves. From others, it's a purely asthetic reaction, to something they view as ugly. However, very few people ever stop to think that there may be a reason for the state that person is in, beyond sheer laziness and lack of self control. The assumption is almost always that the person got themselves into that mess, and they can get themselves out of it if they would only buck up and TRY. That is not always true. And you have no right to assume it is.
A little empathy seems to be something you could benefit from. I've seen pictures of you, and you are a thin person. Judging others based soley on your own abilities and codes lends itself to the type of blindness that hurts both yourself and others. Thus the reactions you got to your posts.
You mentioned shame twice in your original post. "I'm not willing to undermine the truth in the name of making fat people feel good about their shameful habits." "but I think I'm firmly in the camp that people need to stop eating so much fast food, have more salads, drive less and bicycle more. Short of that, they should live with the shame"
Has shame ever been a positive motivating factor in your own life? Do you really think shame will EVER be a positive motivating factor in anyones life, or even that it should be? Stop for a minute and think about what you are really saying people should do. You are saying that people who are overweight should be looked down upon, should be degraded and made to feel ashamed of themselves, just because they dont exercise as much as they need to, and they allow society and circumstance to dictate what they eat, instead of what is good for them. I'm not saying that these habits shouldnt be changed, or that they should just be accepted as normal. But you will never help anyone to become a healthier person with shame and fear of public distaste as a motivating factor.
I dont think this is how you really view the world, just from other, well thought out posts I've read from you. Maybe it is. Either way, the way you expressed how you felt made me sad, and it made me think about how many other people out there look at people like my mom and sister with revulsion and distaste. i think this, ultimatly, is what Mr. Card is trying to say we should change. The additude of shame associated with being overweight.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I love all the people. You are all beautiful.
An aside (sort of): the other night, I saw Regina King (actress recently in "Ray") on a talk show, and she was wearing a lovely gown that accented her rounded thighs. That's right! Generously round! Boy they were beautiful.
And so are you! That's right, I'm talking to you (imagine me pointing out of the monitor...okay, that's a little freaky, sorry about that, hope I didn't knock over your Dr. Pepper)!
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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quote: For the most part, I look at fat people with the same disdain most people reserve for people who don't brush their teeth. It's not only a sign of bad hygiene, I worry about their priorities, which indicate their character.
Well, we already know that race is an issue with you, so I am not surprised that you show poor judgment elsewhere. The funny part of it is that racism began because people don't like the different, the strange.....because others appeared different and acted different than they did.
Assuming someone lack moral fiber because they are overweight is no different that assuming someone is unintelligent because they are black.
quote:Has shame ever been a positive motivating factor in your own life? Do you really think shame will EVER be a positive motivating factor in anyones life, or even that it should be?
I believe in shame and guilt as moral motivators. I think under-utilization of shame and guilt explain many inadequacies in our society. I also believe that shame and guilt are most appropriate in the presence of the shining positive vision. I don't think letting fat people off the hook in a nation when obesity is a serious problem is the example of a shining positive vision.
_________ As an aside, I'm in incredible shape. It's uncalled for. I can stand up and do thirty five pull-ups right now, and that's after working out this morning. Aside for the year I did Capoeira and my senior year in high school, I'm in the best shape of my life. It's a matter of good eating and exercise habits. The eating came from my dad, who did not abide by his kids eating sweets. And the exercise habits are the product of Erika Dickson. I had a crush on Erika Dickson. She liked jocks, and pretty soon I got so into excelling at the sport that I forgot about Erika, and she found herself another man, and I was wedded to the track. The women come and go, but thankfully, the passion they inspire stays the same.
Nobody needs to be in the kind of shape that I'm in. But I do believe that not everyone who supports this relative body image bandwagon is as healthy as Olivetta, and I'm not one to make excuses for them.
posted
People without a sense of shame or guilt(or their opposite, dignity or reverence) can only be motivated to refrain by external factors, like violence or prison. That's the problem with sociopaths.
I think that people can, and should be taught to eat better, as a matter of self-respect. But we have a pervasive idea in America, that people can and should be able to do whatever they want when they want to. This idea causes almost as many problems as it solves.
As an aside, we have a lot of people in Washington who believe that our enemies do not have a sense of dignity, reverence, shame, or guilt, and that's why we have to bomb them. The telling bit about that, as katarain sees, is that the Neocon solutions tell more about the quality of their character.
quote:I think that people can, and should be taught to eat better, as a matter of self-respect. But we have a pervasive idea in America, that people can and should be able to do whatever they want when they want to. This idea causes almost as many problems as it solves.
I agree with all of that, I just disagree that being overweight means that a person is not following this counsel.
posted
You're a bigot in favor of many things and irrationally against many others. Your own character is not doing your causes any favors.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
America is a fat-ass country. Saying something like "let's accept pudgy people" is great, but if we're talking about changing the world, how about we ship half of all the calories you eat to Africa.
You won't get made fun of for being a fatty, and you'll be helping some other people. Not to mention, you might get a bit healthier.
If we're supposed to think of thin people as narcissistic and uptight then we should think of fat people as lazy and greedy.
Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Irami, Again. I can see what you are saying. However, I think that shame and guilt need to be addressed to different things. People who are attracted to children should be ashamed of that attraction and allow that shame to modify their natural(or unnatural) tendencies. People who have hurt others should feel guilt over the pain they have inflicted and use that guilt to make sure they never do it again. And, yes, some people dont possess those feelings, so they need to have a physical deterent making sure they never act on their desires. I totally agree that shame and guilt are neccessary factors in human society.
I think, though, that so many of the problems we have as a society, come from a misapplication and perversion of those natural feelings. I come from a background where shame and guilt were the primary motivating factors to do right. Oh, and lets not forget fear. These things were used as a bludgeon to ensure obedience and compliance with the generally accepted way of things. Fear of God and fear of your peers, shame at feelings that werent OK by certain standards, and horrible guilt when one strayed from the path of righteousness. As I grew up, I rejected that world view, and recreated one for myself that included shame and guilt, just over things that I KNEW were wrong, not over what others told me was wrong.
Your likening the issues "fat" people have with those that socially deviant people have is wrong. Like Myr pointed out, you are oversimplifying something that you have no actual experiance with. Making someone feel guilty for having a food addiction is so much more likely to send them on an eating binge than it is to make them want a salad. Most overweight people eat for comfort. Feeling ashamed of yourself because you just ate that entire pie often makes you crave a roasted chicken, just for the comforting oblivion eating provides.
I have alot of experiance with this, having been a binge eater and very overweight for most of my life. The only way I broke that cycle was to accept parts of myself that were making me feel a dull, constant ache of shame, and come to terms with why I needed to stuff my face all the time. Shame had nothing to do with this, and neither did guilt. It was about accepting myself, and learning to love and respect every part of me. I try to help everyone I know to feel the same way about themselves. And I'm not going to do that by pointing out how ugly I was when I was fat, but look at me now, and dont you wish you could be as hot as me? If you just stopped eating crappy food you could be...
That said, I agree that people should be taught self respect, and healthy habits. I just totally disagree that shame and guilt have any part in that teaching process.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I exercise everyday, I eat mostly veggies, and chicken once a day for proteine, but confine myself to droolingly looking at sweets. I walk or ride the bus (which involves quite a bit of walking, our public trans is so-so), I dance.
I have terrible asthma. I have fibroid ovarian cysts. I am 60 lbs overweight. I am NOT lazy. I am NOT greedy. And I think you who are SO quick to criticize are disgusting for ASSUMING I am.
posted
I was VERY skinny, waiflike until i was 22. Then I just got to be average, but was slowly putting on weight (and unable to find any means of controlling the cysts). I rode my bike everywhere, and when I wasn't riding i was running. My college schedule was pretty hectic so I was always running to get there on time. But I still put on weight SLOWLY.
Then I got pregnant!
the first 4.5 months I LOST weight, then I stableized and just stayed at a still average weight (the Dr. was getting nervous) then BLAM! I popped out everywhere. I looked like a telletubby. Even my feet grew. The actually got LONGER in addition to wider.
I never lost the weight afterward, but the cysts have gotten worse.
posted
I was so skinny as a little kid you could count my ribs through my shirt.
But at the age of about 13, I suddenly started putting on weight. No change in lifestyle. Just ... a spare tire. Yeah, I ate like a horse - but I did before.
I CAN control it, to a point. Sudden drastic changes - fasting for a month, or suddenly increasing my hours of exercise per week - can lead to substantial weight loss. But then the weight creeps back on. Usually one extravagant year or so to lose the weight, then five to be back to where I was, or nearly.
But I'm a mesomorph. I know people who no matter what they eat or how much they exercise, they simply hold onto the weight. For some it's heredity - they look exactly like one of their parents - and for others it's a health issue - cysts, cushing's syndrome, etc. But for me, it really IS something I can control if I just make it the central issue of my life. My pattern is to gain weight primarily when I'm concentrating on something else.
So doing Giant and Magic Street last fall put on ten pounds, Christmas put on another five, and the Giant book tour put on five. That's twenty. A big sack of flour. I'm not so much ashamed as annoyed. Now my clothes don't fit right. I hate that. So ... I'm back to more intense exercise and, probably, my 48-hour diet, where I eat one meal every forty-eight hours.
Posts: 2005 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Back to the very original post in this thread - what if we did call people on their observations and tried to spin them in a more positive direction? That wouldn't be too difficult. I'm choosing to take the initial post fairly seriously, because it's something I see daily.
We have a lot of gossip and negativity at work, and I've found the best way to defuse this is to spin it gently toward a positive or less catty direction. Silence implies consent. If you overhear someone saying something negative about someone or something else, call it.
If we look at the people we choose as partners/mates, chances are those people don't meet anything like society's expectations of attractiveness. I still get girly when I see my husband, and I still have a crush on him after 10 years. He looks really good to me, even with spare tire and bald head.
On my goodnight note, it's good to remember there's often more than one right answer, and someone invented chocolate because vanilla wasn't enough. God invented enough body styles to suit everyone's preference.
Posts: 230 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
It's OK, Scott. If anything I thought you looked a little too skinny before.
I too can control my weight if I really put the effort in. But it has to be a *lot* of effort, unfortunately. I'm pretty good about not letting too much creep back on--and getting it off when it does. It's pregnancy that kills me.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I came to read this thread hoping for jokes and maybe some serious discussion about how the socially accepted norm for people in the United States is an unhealthy bodyshape for many people to be in. Not all, but many many people. I came expecting to make a jovial post or two and feel a little bit better about the effort I was making to better myself and others and become less hateful of the way that I am shaped while simultaneously working to make the shape more to my liking.
Instead I am met with the hatefully barbed posts of Irami, who is shameless about his prejudice against people who are overweight. I was afraid, yes, afraid, when I met my first anorexic, and she told me that she felt all the time that people were looking at her and thinking that she was fat, lazy, and greedy. I was afraid because despite having problems with my own weight for many many years, I had never entertained those thoughts. To me, being overweight made me invisible and perhaps mildly scornful.
The newly introduced idea haunted me for a few weeks. Recently due to changes in sleep habits, diet, and lack of exercise, I have put on twenty-five to thirty pounds. I have begun to suffer pain in my knees because of the extra strain, not to mention shame at the surfacing of new stretch marks on my belly, and a resounding hopelessness.
I remember feeling shock when my mother told me after years of gently pushing me in the direction of weight loss that only now did it really matter that I lose weight, because before it did not endanger my health. I was shocked because to me it had been life or death. I was convinced for quite a long time, and I am not entirely unconvinced now, that there was no way for someone who looked like me to ever date.
Even after six years of Tae Kwon Do, attaining my black belt after years of strife, doubt, self-hatred, and shame, I still did not drop below two hundred pounds.
In about thirty minutes, I'm going to bed in preparation for getting up much earlier than I'm used to, in order to walk the two miles to the class I attend at another university instead of driving, one of the steps I'm taking to improve my health. But for right now, I'm sitting at my computer, not doing my homework, crying.
In my opinion, the people who have commented on Irami's posts previously are being all too nice. I want you to know, Irami, that I know well the shame you speak of, and no matter how strongly I am or was at any point ashamed to be overweight, it pales in comparison to the shame I feel for knowing someone like you. Whatever shame I feel is in compensation for the shame you obviously don't feel for being so hateful. I reject your opinion with my very being, fat and all.
My group of friends run the gamut between rail-thin due to heredity to 5'9", 300 lbs and I do not discriminate. I will not lie and say that I have not looked upon someone who is obese or morbidly obese and felt sadness and felt superior and felt relieved that I was not them. I don't deny that I regularly compare myself to those around me and feel righteous when I am the lesser of the two of us, so to speak. But I am not proud of those feelings and I work to direct them towards honest self-improvement.
You shock and disgust me, Irami, and this has nothing to do with the way you look.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I gained forty pounds on BIRTH CONTROL for cryin' outloud. That puts me in the "overweight" category for my age and height. The South Beach diet makes me physically ill and I'm so turned-off by the "variety" of foods they offer that I'd rather not eat at all then eat those meals. Running and doing The Firm (tm) video aggravate my hip and leave me in excruciating pain a few times a week. So my only recourse (is that a word?) is walking which still hurts my hip but not nearly as much.
So i must be a pretty huge waste of human space, being all shameful and guilt-ridden as I am that the universe is conspiring against my weight-loss.
I like you, Irami, but lately you've had a serious bug up your bum.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:We like stick-straight hair? Jews and Italians and Arabs and Brazilians can only look hot when they fry and over-chemically process their hair.
Annie, I'm Jewish and I have straight hair. I also know many Italian, Arab, and Brazilian people with straight hair. I understand the point you made, but you hit a really sore spot for me. All of my ancestors were Western European (Germany, Austria, and England) and my father isn't Jewish. In every synagogue and youth group and Jewish student union I've belonged to, the vast majority of the people were typically Eastern European-looking. I've had people refuse to believe I'm Jewish and tell me that I don't look Jewish as if that were a great compliment (it didn't help that my maiden name is Gardner). Judaism may be an ethnicity as well as a religion, but it isn't a race and no one can look Jewish any more than they can look Mormon or Methodist or Hindu or Muslim.
I will never be happy with myself unless I weigh less than 115 pounds. I just can't overcome my programming - my mother was a Ford model in the '70s and there's never been a time when I couldn't count her ribs. She thinks that Calista Flockhart has the perfect body. A lot of my friends are the same way. I grew up hearing things like, "Nothing tastes as good a thin feels," "A minute on the lips, a lifetime on the hips," and "A missed meal is a good meal." I've worked hard to overcome my warped body image, but I'll never overcome it completely.
One of the hardest things about my fertility treatments has been the weight gain. I try to look at it as an exercise in humility, but it's driving me crazy. It has certainly made me sympathize with people who struggle with their weight.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Even before I gained all that weight, I was in the obese category of the BMI. But that, I think, is because I have a fairly muscular amazon's frame.
posted
(wails) Indeed. Rivka was wondering why my bumper sticker says "I Brake For Amazons." That is why. I was a little bit nervous to say so. (Thought she would laugh at me. That rivka is MEAN! )
quote: I was shocked because to me it had been life or death. I was convinced for quite a long time, and I am not entirely unconvinced now, that there was no way for someone who looked like me to ever date.
I just realized that this makes it look like I think that a lack of dates = death.
I'm in post-cathartic post giddiness.
Trevor: Yeah, I think I remember seeing that. I've doubted its efficacy ever since I tested myself the first time. Since then I've discounted it.
posted
Ryuko, Your post made me feel so angry for you. I mean, a serious surge of rage ran through my heart and I wanted to go pound "somebodys" head in. The idea that your self-image has been negatively affected by the unfeeling ignorance of someone who doesnt know you, and obviously could never truly know you, makes me so sad. I've seen your album on foobonic, and I cant imagine where you get such a horrible idea about what you look like. I honestly think you are gorgeous(ofcourse, that could be cause we kind of look alike). Dont let the ignorant predjudice of one un-empathetic soul get you down.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I am going to let my thoughts on this rest as is. I don't find the toothpick skinny girls that attractive. I like a some weight on them. A healthy weight. If they happen to be a bit more, so what. Do they feel good about themselves? Yes, then that's great. No, then better luck next time.
I like Chris Rock's take on this. There is nothing better(sexier?) than a big black woman.
He is referencing to the fact that most big black women feel great about themselves, and could give a sh@! less about what you think. She knows she has it.
A great attitude towards one self is important.
Now, don't mind me as I turn sideways and disappear.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I'm 5'7" and always been a bit heavy, even though I was always active in softball, dance, or flagline. The summer between graduating high school and starting college I couldn't find a summer job and got depressed and ended up gaining more weight. When I did start school I'd walk everywhere and I got really excited because I dropped two pant sizes and went back to my pre-graduation size. Now I think I eat reasonably well for a college student (I never get junk food but I've been known to eat macaroni/ramen/cheap foods a few nights a week). I get frustrated because even though I walk a lot and play DDR most nights, my weight has stayed about the same.
And I never like to look at scales--it just depresses me. My mind works in terms of clothing sizes. Which might not be much healthier, but oh well.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yeah, I weighed less than I have since I stopped growing taller during the first six months of my freshman year. Then I gained the weight back and then some.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I dont know if ignoring the scales is such a good idea, T. They tend to be indicitive of something odd going on. Like mutating to a reptile or something.
Posts: 499 | Registered: Mar 2004
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