posted
I looked at the thread list, saw this thread at the top with zero replies, and assumed that it was the first announcement. Can you really blame me?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It might have helped if you'd just said it was nice rather than asking if it'd help if you said it was nice. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you! That was my first thought! However, my co-worker is very devout Catholic, and I did not say it out loud.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, it would be kind of funny if the Cardinal of Paris would be chosen. Then even the Pope would be Jewish and our secret plan(oh well, not so secret anymore...) to rule the world will succeed!
Posts: 803 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:You know, it would be kind of funny if the Cardinal of Paris would be chosen. Then even the Pope would be Jewish and our secret plan(oh well, not so secret anymore...) to rule the world will succeed
Sorry- You get a former Nazi instead...
quote:
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger — a favorite to become the next pontiff — joined the Nazi children's corps in 1941 as a 14-year-old and was later an anti-aircraft gunner.
At one point, he guarded a factory where slaves from a concentration camp were forced to work. He was later shipped to Hungary, where he reportedly saw Jews persecuted.
Ratzinger, a staunch conservative dubbed "God's Rottweiler," has said he joined the Hitler Youth when membership became compulsory. He and his brother were later drafted but deserted. The cardinal claims he never fired a shot and that resistance would have meant death.
Not so, Germans from his hometown of Traunstein told The Times of London.
"It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others," recalled Elizabeth Lohner, 84. "The Ratzingers were young — and they had made a different choice."
posted
Good thing Catholicism includes repentance, and that we are not all judged for the rest of our lives by the decisions we made under duress at fifteen.
posted
Well I'm at least going to put in my congratulations to all the Catholics here, and add my best wishes to the millions already offered, to welcome the new pope.
posted
Has he asked for forgiveness? In this article, I read that he looked at the value of life and chose to save his own... And now justifies it by claiming saving his own life was more important than risking it for what was morally right. That would be a difficult decision to make at any age much less 15. But forgiveness (assuming he has asked for it) and the appropriateness for a specific role in church leadership are 2 different things.
This confusion has lead to the same absurdities with Cardinal Law. So he facilitated the sexual abuse of hundreds of children (assuming hundreds of these ‘victims’ are lying there would still be hundreds) by moving known child abusers from parish to parish. If he honestly seeks forgiveness, he deserves to be forgiven. It is the only way the victims and he can be healed (though not the only thing that needs to happen for that healing-Law was only one player in that tragedy)- but even after that- determing whether it would ever be appropriate to then promote him to a higher position- forgiveness is just one of many factors to consider... accountability, honesty, wisdom- these are the characteristics required for institutional leadership. Arre these traits in evidence in the way Law and Ratzinger handle themselves in light of their decisions/roles in these events?
Posts: 8 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Cliff Claven. He was Ham, the piggy bank, in Toy Story, and he's had a cameo in every Pixar film.
I was wondering who you meant too. I think the actor's name is John Ratzenberger... but Cliff Claven as pope! Posts: 251 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:J, you are claiming to know if he has been redeemed or not?
Of course not- my point was that his redemption/forgiveness, etc. is a separate issue from his appropriateness as the leader of THE church. One can be redeemed, but not make a good leader or an appropriate (or perhaps inclusive???) figurehead.
quote: In a document in 2000, he branded other Christian churches as deficient -- shocking Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestants in ecumenical dialogue with Rome for years.
Susie, thanks for the welcome- and no I am not French but I am a fan of Lacan.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
So someone can be forgiven, but not really. They can be redeemed, but it can never be forgotten. A possible sin of omission done as a teenager during a war sixty years ago trumps everything that has happened in his life since then.
I don't think that's what redemption actually means.
quote:Of course not- my point was that his redemption/forgiveness, etc. is a separate issue from his appropriateness as the leader of THE church. One can be redeemed, but not make a good leader or an appropriate (or perhaps inclusive???) figurehead.
I'm a big fan of this guy named Paul. You may remember him as Saul of Tarsus.
Or, to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, "When we arrive in Heaven we may be very surprised by both who we see there and who we don't."
Posts: 472 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: So someone can be forgiven, but not really. They can be redeemed, but it can never be forgotten. A possible sin of omission done as a teenager during a war sixty years ago trumps everything that has happened in his life since then.
I don't think that's what redemption actually means.
You better believe it should not be forgotten. To forgive and to ignore (another word for forgetting) are two entirely different things. Forgiveness and redemption do not erase history or undo the past- they provide doors for sinners embrace life again and grow- but they do not remove the scars. A former Nazi could, possibly, have gained great wisdom and spritual leadership abilities during his/her struggle to reconcile belonging to an institution that murdered 7 million or so. I was asking if there was any evidence of this. The few quotes and stances I have read strike me as idelogically pure, which after the Nazi party, frightens me more than a little. Also to claim, he had to do what he did or face death, does not sound like asking for redemption. Can one be forgiven for something one does not think was wrong?
So many people think that to be forgiven is the final step in healing or moving forward. It is the first step. We should not forget our sins and not all sins are equal. Forgiveness does not erase accountability or consequence- it facilitates accountabilty which fosters consequences that can facilitate growth/life.
Regardless, I am curious as to what the 'sin of omission' was?
Posts: 8 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think I would judge anyone on whether or not they joined the Hitlerjugend, at least not when it was as late as 1941. What moral resource is a 15-year-old supposed to muster, against the entire weight of nationalism, patriotism, propaganda, and coercion? If it comes to that, in 1941 you could probably make a good case that he really didn't know what was happening to the Jews; Hitler's regime, while not exactly sweetness and light, had yet to be exposed for the utter cesspool it truly was.
That said, considering he's just been elected leader of one of the more evil organisations of our era, a mere Hitlerjugend membership is pretty small potatoes anyway.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You can't? Then I envy you, because it means you've somehow avoided the hate and vitriol that spews from KoM's mouth on a regular basis.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, I think the pendulum has swung a little too far in the religion-haters direction. Everyone was so careful after the rash of baptisms last fall to tone down the church talk to make sure that everyone felt included, but this is too much.
Even when the Red Sox won, there was a legion of people jumping on the one person who wasn't acting happy.
Now, this happens, and the threads are filled with a bunch of people generally being &%$#*%#s about it.
Time for the pendulum to swing back. How about the jerks stay out the threads?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't see why this day should have any particular respect. I held my peace when the old Pope died, because whatever he did in life he was, after all, dead. But this guy is coming in to his power; why should I hold back?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Scary... You know what happened last time Germany and Italy were in league together. All they need to do now is start installing some Japanese Archbishops and they'll be ready to annex the Polish Orthodox Church.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Give the French bashing a rest, eh? It's neither funny, original, nor true. Had the Americans had Nazi Germany on their border in 1940, they'd have collapsed in a lot less than six weeks, thank you kindly.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wonder what the Jews at Hatrack think about it.
I don't think I would have put him in that post, just because it might offend so many Jews. But, if they aren't bothered by it, I suppose no one else should be.
quote: How about the jerks stay out the threads?
If only wishing made it so.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
King of Men, I think you know I'm not normally one who comments much on your feelings about religion. I think you sometimes express yourself in a less than ideal manner, but you're intitled to your option, certainly.
But goodness, are you really one to talk about giving anything-bashing a rest?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
PJ
