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Author Topic: Pool Jumping
Katarain
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I go home now... don't tell me that now that we all made nice, the debating stops... *sigh*

I need more entertainment in my life. [Wink]

-Katarain

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Jim-Me
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:

I also think that part of acting out like that, which IS normal, is accepting the concequences of those actions if caught.


[Big Grin]


I wanted to make this point, too, just didn't do it as well. It's just no fun being a hooligan if you aren't facing punishment for it.

Or, to put it back on Xavier's original terms, part of teaching your kids to take risks *properly* is making it a *risk*... not a cake walk. [Smile]

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Tammy
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Whew…I just finished reading your comments, at least most of them. Maybe I didn’t explain some things like I should have.

Last night after I found out what had happened I called Jim the owner of the pool. I’d never met him or his wife. We have a list with phone numbers and addresses of everyone in the neighborhood. I told him I was aware of what had happened at the pool and that I was sorry. I told him that the kids and I had discussed what had happened and that I was taking the matter very seriously. He’s a very nice man; he voiced his concerns and told me what he’d discussed with the kids.

I knew that he’d already talked to the kids and that they’d apologized to him. Earlier that evening, the pool owners were asking around trying to find out who had been in their pool. My children and the girl who’s mom is going back to work in two weeks went and confessed. They didn’t have to, but they did. I’m proud of them for that and I told them so. They knew what they did was wrong. My children were very quiet and respectful while I was talking to them about this. They knew.

I wanted my children to know that what was done could not be repeated. I wanted them to understand how serious it is to cross lines into private property. I think the fact that they jumped into an older couple’s pool bothered me a lot. If they had jumped into one of the children’s pools, I wouldn’t have been as upset. As parents of the children, we deal with stuff like that differently. Being the parents, we’re a little more forgiving and lenient and we all give a little in that area. These older folks don’t have to play that game.

As an after thought I brought up the seriousness of unsupervised horseplay in a pool. They’re strong swimmers and I’m pretty secure when they’re in water.

You know, when you have neighbors that are as close to us as ours are, mainly because of the kids, you have little issues that crop up once in awhile. For the most part, the kids all get along pretty well. They’re kids, they play, fight, fuss, ignore each other, make-up, etc.

The kids cross streets (probably without even looking sometimes), climb trees, play in the woods, jump on trampolines, ride bikes and skateboards, play basketball, baseball, football, raid each other’s refrigerators, play in each others rooms, etc. The boys tease the girls and the girls give it right back to them. The girls play silly games that include daring each other to do silly things, like ring a neighbor’s door and ask them if they can borrow an ice cube or cotton ball. Most of the kids are on the same soccer, basketball or softball teams. These kids are active and they take appropriate risks every day. These kids are silly. These kids are pretty stinking normal. Occasionally we have to get together as parents and play referee. It’s rare. Most of the time the kids end up coming in at the end of the day and no one has to go looking for their kids. They really do have a lot of freedom. They usually keep to the homes of their friends. I’ve never seen them cross the boundaries over to “childless” homes.

I honestly can say that I’ve never thought twice about the way my neighbors have disciplined their children in the past. My plate is full. I have plenty to deal with!

It just bugged me a bit this time that they dealt with this the same way they’d deal with a tiff between the kids, or something as normal as that.

This was different to me.

As far as the grounding goes, I’m really not that creative or evil. I just take away what they really like…for a little while.

I won't even begin to go into how my parents would discipline me for a certain look or for one little word of talking back. That was then...this is now.

p.s. Elizabeth, the other little girl in this story just called me right now to apologize for putting dog poop in my son's shoe. [Smile]

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El JT de Spang
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I'm a little late to the party, but I wish I'd been here earlier to say I agree with Xavier.

Punishment is earned, but with an 11 and 14 year old I think grounding is a little harsh. If it were me (and it's not, so this is just my humble opinion - I support every parent's right to discipline their own children however they see fit) I would say that grounding is a bit harsh. If the kids are 6 and 8, totally different story. But with kids that age, I would think the stern talking to would probably do the trick.

Presumably, they would understand the need to respect other people's property and why such boundaries are necessary. Even the liability issues can surely be explained.

More to say on this, but I'm sick of typing.

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Jon Boy
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You know, it sounds to me like the kids have learned and understand how wrong it was. If I grounded them, I'd probably be fairly easy on them. I'm not sure what a "fair amount" of grounding will accomplish.

Let me add a personal experience. When I was about fifteen, my friends and I took a bus across town to the mall to go to a movie and hang out. I thought I had explained our plans pretty clearly to my parents, but they didn't remember such an explanation.

We stayed at the mall a lot longer than we should have. Eventually we called my friend's mom, who came to pick us up. All our parents were upset that we'd been gone so long—especially mine, since they didn't know where I actually was.

They grounded me from going to movies with my friends for the rest of the summer—and it was still only June. My parents talked to my friends' parents and said stuff like, "So, what are you going to do to ground so-and-so?" and the answer from all my friends' parents was "Nothing."

My grounding from movies only lasted a few weeks, and I think even that was excessive. I didn't need to be grounded to learn that what I'd done was wrong. I didn't need grounding to deter me from doing it again. Frankly, I think my parents' anger with me far exceeded any crime I had committed. Just keep that in mind when punishing your kids.

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dean
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I'm on the opposite side, JT. When they're younger, they're less likely to understand how wrong what they were doing was, and to be less able to relate the length of time of the punishment to the seriousness of the infraction. Older kids can handle longer punishments than little kids can and are more likely to deserve them by having knowingly done something wrong.
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Xavier
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Haha, the amount of typos in this thread is amazing (myself being one of the worst offenders). Guess it shows just how fast we were all typing [Big Grin] .
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Kwea
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Sounds like they knew what was up, and wanted to make amends...I would probably consider that when deciding punishment.

But it souldn't be a cake walk, and there should be concequences.


[Big Grin]

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Father Time
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Zavier,

Allow me to submit that you are wrong. But--you're entitled to be.

Age is not the factor--those who were gorunded learned a valubale lesson in many ways.

To repsect other peoples property.
To understand that every decision has a consequence--good or bad.
To understand that rules in a household are a predecessor to rules in a nation.

To have no consequence for your actions encourages disrespect.

You also showed no concern for the welfare of the home owners. Regardles of the age of the teens, people slip, fall, get injured and die, yes even teen agers. These homeowners would have been devastated and potentially liable for not locking the gate. In this day and age of ridiculous litigation, you just never know.

I hope I'm not being too hard on you but this goes beyond a stupid prank and these aprents were very justified to lay down the law. The other parents missed a teaching moment. But then, they taught their children to do as they please without consequence.

Oh well. Let's all go for a swim.

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Kwea
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.............
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Belle
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I'm late to the pool party too, but I just want to voice my agreement with Tammy. I definitely would have grounded my kids.

Trespassing someone else's property is not a lighthearted prank. It's a crime. And I believe it was last year when a teen supposed to be a strong swimmer drowned in our area, there was a big to-do about it on the news. No matter how strong you are, water must be respected at all times.

I think Tammy's kids sound like great kids, they knew they did something wrong, they fessed up and they apologized. But I think the reason they are probably great kids is because Tammy has raised them to respect others and other people's property and she is the type of mom that isn't going to write off criminal behavior with "oh well, kids will be kids."

Good on you for stepping up and wanting to teach your kids a valuable lesson. I feel sorry for the kids whose parents don't want to enforce responsibility in their lives. Those kids could learn lessons the hard way down the road.

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TMedina
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Not to mention, you can't be guaranteed the homeowners would be willing to let things go.

I refer you to the "Good Samaritan Cookie Case" - how much did the families of those girls have to pay, even though the teens had the best of intentions?

-Trevor

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Xavier
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I'm debating whether to respond to Father time.

On one hand, he addressed me by, well sort of, by name, and that should warrent a response I would think.

On the other hand, its hard to believe from his post that he actually read any of my posts in this thread.

So I think I am gonna go with not responding...

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Elizabeth
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Except for the response you just made to him, of course...
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Valentine014
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Took me a while to read through the whole thread, and I think I read it pretty cafefully, but I have a couple of questions.

Was the pool gate locked? If it wasn't, is that law in your state (not sure which one you're in, it's not in your profile)? If it wasn't locked and it is the law, is that a concern for you? That it might happen again, and this time something bad happened?

You stated:
quote:
I try to practice the “punishment fitting the crime” law.
. Your discipline in this situation was to ground them. How exactly does that correspond with that statement? What does grounding have to do with trespassing?

Idea: Perhaps a fitting punishment would be to have your children help the homeowner clean the pool through the rest of the summer...?

Personal Experience: My mother tried to effectivly enforce "grounding" since I was about 8. It quickly lost its harshness when I discovered the wonderful world of books. I can't go outside? Good, it's too hot anyway. (smartass<--which in turn would get me a few more days added on). She never really tried anything else on me, even when a lot of different punishments would have more effective.

Xavier: I know that you had no discipline in your life. Ever. This makes me nervous.
quote:
I have no problem with him being punished for breaking a rule...
You say that children should have some sort of punishments, the severity to ultimatly be determined by the crime, but you have told me on many occasions that as a child, your father tried to discipline (grounding), but to no avail. You and your brothers simply ignored him and to punish him, you or your brothers would stay out for a few days!

Do you now disagree with your actions as a teenager or would you accept the same treatment from our kids?

Edit: I'm only posting this comment to Xavier because he's in bed sleeping and I want to start the conversation now, while it's fresh.

We've had the kids and disipline conversation before and it one of the few that never ends well.

[ June 15, 2005, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Valentine014 ]

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Kwea
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I thought of the pool cleaning thing too, it was something my parents would ahve thought up... [Big Grin]


I do think that grounding can be effective...my mom took away my books while grounded, because she knew that she didn't have to worry about me not reading onvce it was done.


The punishment fitting the crime isn't a literal thing, you know....it usually means that the duratrion and/or severity of the punsihment fits the severity of the infraction.

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Kwea
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Also, my parents sometimes . . .not usually, but sometimes....allowed for time to be taken off for good behavior while grounded. I could never count on it, and looking back I figure now that it was probably around family vacations when grounding would not have been praticle to them [Smile] . . . but if I was good, and had shown true remorse, then sometimes the grounding was lifted a little early.


My main point is that that is her job, being a parent...to determine what unishment fits the crime. She has already said that if they had been crashing other kids pools, or something like that, it would have been a lot less of a problem.


Sounds to me like she really thought this out pretty darn well.


Kwea

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Kwea
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SOrry, Firefox has been acting weird a lot lately. Keeps telling teh No Data message again. [Frown]
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JenniK
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I have worked as a lifeguard at a pool, a summer camp with a pool and waterfront (lake), and at Walt Disney World's Typhoon Lagoon (insane!), and although I understand what Xavier said, I am also aware that even an expert swimmer can drown in just 2 inches of water.
My problem with the entire story is this:
quote:
My normally well behaved kids, along with a few of their normally well behaved buddies jumped into a neighbor’s pool
...

There is so much potential for danger in just that statement. Kids like to goof off and play around, and near water, even more so. Chicken fights and jumping in right after someone else. Disaster waiting to happen. I know personally. I had someone jump in just as i came up...their feet landed on my face! I was about 13 at the time and it was so not fun. Luckily nothing was broken ...just a really bloody nose and a headache, but it could have been a lot worse. I agree with the statement about not knowing that the other parents said to their kids and all , but the thought that it wasn't dangerous is scary.

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Tammy
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quote:
Your discipline in this situation was to ground them. How exactly does that correspond with that statement? What does grounding have to do with trespassing?
quote:
The punishment fitting the crime isn't a literal thing, you know....it usually means that the duratrion and/or severity of the punsihment fits the severity of the infraction.
Thanks Kwea! I couldn't have put it better myself. That's exactly what I meant by that statement. I had thought about having my kids go and volunteer their services, however they might be needed. I also thought of getting a plant and having the kids deliver it. I'm still involved in that thought process; it's only been a couple of days since it happened.


quote:
There is so much potential for danger in just that statement. Kids like to goof off and play around, and near water, even more so. Chicken fights and jumping in right after someone else. Disaster waiting to happen. I know personally. I had someone jump in just as i came up...their feet landed on my face! I was about 13 at the time and it was so not fun. Luckily nothing was broken ...just a really bloody nose and a headache, but it could have been a lot worse. I agree with the statement about not knowing that the other parents said to their kids and all , but the thought that it wasn't dangerous is scary.
I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think what they did was dangerous. It just wasn't the first thought that ran through my mind. I'm a mom for goodness sakes. I'm always worried they'll end up in the hospital. Actually my son is an accident waiting to happen and not because he's normally well behaved or otherwise. He's daring, adventurous and a bit clumsy at times. I can't tell you how many times I've had to take him to the ER due to bike crashes, etc. He's wild. I'm terrified of him driving a vehicle.

That's not what I meant by normally well-behaved. I really just meant that they normally don't do things as disrespectful as this, that's all.

I really appreciate all of your comments. I've read each one and have tried to understand some of the different points of view. I feel good about my decision. I've always tried to practice discipline without anger and that is not always so easy to do. As upset as I was over this I didn't blow! I don't want to scare or alienate my kids. I want to gently adjust their thinking and teach them valuable lessons. I try.

p.s. I'm taking the kids swimming today. They're going to get some good, fun and legal water action.

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Elizabeth
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The thing is, in this case, grounding does fit the crime beautifully. They trespassed on a neighbors' grounds, they are confined to their own.
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mackillian
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I still the pool cleaning idea is good, too. Bwahahahaha. That would suck.
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Tammy
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I don't know, I think my kids might actually enjoy cleaning the pool. [Smile]


It's hot t t t t here!

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Elizabeth
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Community service as a consequence does not have to be miserable. The kids will still learn from it.I think it is a great idea.
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quidscribis
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I agree. I also think that it would be wise to let the homeowner decide what work they need to do and how much of it. After all, he's the victim.

(Disclaimer: I have no kids, so what the heck do I know?)

As a kid growing up, I was never disciplined and I had no rules I had to live by. I don't count abuse as discipline, nor do I count changing their minds every other day on what I should or should not do as rules, by the way. I would have preferred it if there were actual rules and discipline. As it was, no one cared if I was out until 3am on a school night when I was 12.

I personally agree with earlier comments that parents who care about their children have rules and discipline children who break those rules.

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Elizabeth
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I was always a self punisher as a child, worried about causing anyone disappointment. My dad had to look at me with a little strenness, and I would crumple. My sister was the same way.

My brother needed a heavier approach, as he pushed the limits constantly.

So, there is always a fine line between being consistent, and giving each child what they need.

I tend to go by the "Being fair does not always mean being equal" approach. My kids understand that, but many don't.

Parenting is like taking raft down a river. A rocky, rapid river.

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Tammy
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quote:
Parenting is like taking raft down a river. A rocky, rapid river.
...without a life jacket.
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rivka
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. . . and all the training is as-you-go!
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Elizabeth
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But what a glorious ride!
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Farmgirl
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Speaking of rivers, rapids and life rafts....

We had a record-setting rain here recently (15 inches in one night in some areas). The river is very high and rapid.

So on the news they tell about these 3 kids here in Wichita. They decide they want to raft the river (usually the river is so low you have to portage more than you boat). Anyway, so these three kids build a "raft" from logs, styrofoam blocks, rope, etc. They drop it in the river and get on. The raft promptly falls apart in the rapid current, and an army of EMS, Fire, Rescue crews have to rescue the kids. THe police captain interviewed on the radio said the kids were doing it pure "Huck Finn" style.

So the kids are charged with "reckless navigation" -- a misdeamenor, and about the only thing I think they could come up with to charge them for. Spent a night in Juvenile Hall, I think.

I was kind of sad that they got charged. Okay -- so it was a stupid idea. But they were wearing life jackets -- they weren't entirely without sense. Sure, it made the emergency workers have to rescue them, so I can see their point in that way.

But all I could think of was that the kids showed some ingenuity, some daring, some creativity -- built something themselves and tried it out. I would rather my kids do that than sit in front of the Nintendo all day.

I wonder if the Wright brothers would have gotten arrested for crashing their first flight attempt?

Farmgirl

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mackillian
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Obviously if they crashed, it would be reckless navigation. The air! Not the ground! [Wink]
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