posted
I recently gave a take home quiz. I usually don't do this, because of the increased possibility of cheating, but I chose to because it was a precalculus quiz on graphing some fairly complicated functions, and I knew students would not be able to do it in anything like a reasonable amount of time in class. So I decided that, given the large number of quizzes I have given, the security of one was not of paramount concern.
I told students they could look in their books or notebooks while working on this quiz. I specifically told them, however, that they could not get answers from other people. I also required them to write an honor statement on their quizzes before turning them in: "On my honor as a student I have neither given nor received aid on this quiz." I also gave the students some pointed words about honor before they took the quiz home with them.
The day after this quiz was due, another teacher caught one girl who had not turned hers in copying the answers from the quiz of another girl who had also not turned her quiz in yet, in the other teacher's class. She took the quizzes and gave them to me. I noted the similarity of their answers and passed them on to a dean. The girl who had been copying admitted to doing so, saying that she had felt under a great deal of pressure because the class was hard, and she was thinking of dropping it.
Now the story has changed, and her parents (and their advocate) are fighting the consequence. We just had a meeting to discuss this. The contention of the family is that she did not cheat. However, aside from that, the following point was made:
"I don't agree with giving take-home quizzes. In 2005, it's not the same as it was a generation or two ago. The culture has changed. The kids have access to too much. It's unreasonable to think that this is not going to happen."
(In other words, she didn't cheat, but it's wrong for you to expect her not to cheat.)
Bear in mind that this is an honors level class.
The reason the family is fighting this is because the referral may keep her out of NHS--the reason being that NHS apparently expects their members to behave honorably. (The damage to her average from receiving a zero is minimal.)
I am very intrugued by this notion: not that it's unrealistic for me to expect honorable behavior and honesty, which it may possibly be, but that it's unreasonable to do so.
posted
Last year I used to have this column taped to my classroom window. It seems especially timely here.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
That's horrible Icarus. You're totally in the right. It's parents like this, that excuse bad behavior, that are an even bigger problem than the actual cheaters. If I'd cheated in high school, I would have been grounded for the rest of my high school career. And rightfully so.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I consider myself an honourable person, and on take home quizzes don't ask for help...but then I don't usually need it. If a friend or class mate asked me for help, I help them without a second thought, and if I were honour-bound not to...well, I can take the hit.
However, if I have enough time, I go through it with them step by step and try to push them to finish questions by themselves. If I don't have the time, I’ll let them copy mais c'est la vie.
I get on quite well with my teachers, but there's a bond that your not going to break (and, I assume, have no intention of trying).
At the same time, if I were caught I would expect full repercussions. You made plain your place, and the breaking of that trust needs't be dealt with; so, full steam ahead.
Don't think less of the students involved because of these actions.
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't think their claim is worth considering, and I even doubt that they mean it. They're just using words to get you to do what they want. Nobody who behaves like them really merits listening to. Strong opinions, and just my humble ones, but there they are.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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They think so little of their own parenting skills, then? A sad reflection upon themselves, but remarkably honest of them.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: "I don't agree with giving take-home quizzes. In 2005, it's not the same as it was a generation or two ago. The culture has changed. The kids have access to too much. It's unreasonable to think that this is not going to happen."
(In other words, she didn't cheat, but it's wrong for you to expect her not to cheat.)
I think the parents are full of it. Nobody in the previous generation cheated? Nobody in the generation before that? Bull. Some people cheated and if they got caught they got in trouble for it and faced the consequences.
If there's anything that's changed in the culture it's that not many parents would be making lame excuses for their kids. Or they just did it in a different way: influence and favors instead of excuses and false victimization.
The kind of doublethink summed up in the parenthetical seems to be prevalent in our culture lately. But getting into specifics there would probably result in a big derailment.
In short: I hope the school doesn't cave in. Especially when you had the students write the honor statement and everything.
Now, my students are somewhat less likely to cheat than the average HSers, because of the environment. (It happens, but very rarely.) So I'd consider the possibility that my expectations would be unreasonable for your students . . . except they're considered perfectly reasonable at Caltech, where take-home finals (in very high-pressure classes!) are common.
Throw the book at them.
Solar, I have little but contempt for someone who considers themselves "honorable," yet puts the convenience of a friend before honesty and integrity. Bond, shmond! You think you're doing them -- or yourself -- any favors? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Interesting about the pressure... I wonder where the pressure on her to be in Honor Society could be coming from </dripping sarcasm>
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Thank you very much for that link, rivka. That could come in very useful if I am asked to defend the quiz.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I think that the article you had on your door is appropriate. The funny thing is that Pitts himself had an "up-close-and-personal" experience with a form of cheating known as plagiarism recently. Apparently, there was this local columnist who wrote for a small town paper here in GA, and he would take chunks or even whole essays written by Mr. Pitts and have them published as his own work. When it came out that he had done this, he was immediately fired.
What parents and kids need to understand is that there are serious ramifications concerning cheating that go way beyond NHS eligibility. This is a pattern that, gone unchecked, can cost their child her livelihood. I realize that sounds rather extreme, but it works like that. What the parents are doing is stupid and setting their daughter up to do it again. If she's caught in college, they can't save her. Once she turns 18, they no longer have a voice when she does something stupid. At that point, it will be on her to take care of the issue. Universities are not kind to cheaters.
The sad part is that the girl has probably not learned anything from this except to be more sneaky next time.
Posts: 392 | Registered: Aug 2004
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My policy on helping friends was that if they asked, I helped, unless I knew it wasn't allowed. So if it was an assignment I had, I would know what help was allowed. If it said "exam" on it, I'd know no help was allowed. Other than that, I expected my friends to police their own honor.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
That is a very sad commentary on the parents themselves. I can't believe they would say such a thing.
I also hope the school doesn't cave.
The girl doesn't deserve to be in the National Honor Society if she is caught cheating in school. Period.
If this were my child, I would make her accept the consequences of her actions and consider it a good life lesson, and I'd support whatever punishment the school decided. Unfortunately, these parents aren't interested in actually parenting and teaching their child anything, they just want their kid to have all the advantages they can wrangle for them. And that's sad, because the kid will most likely now have a victim complex - "I didn't get what I deserved because the school and Mr. Icarus were unreasonable" instead of learning "Hey, I screwed up. I better not do it again."
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I don't like people like these who are excusing cheating, but I also don't like the precedent being set that any help outside of class is cheating (which seems to be the policy my old HS set). The reason I say this is my sister was accused of cheating. A Biology teacher (I think it was Biolgoy) gave the students an assignment to do at home, but it wasn't a take-home quiz or test or anything, just homework. My sister did it at home and went to school. A friend of hers was confused and asked for help, so being the nice person she is, she offered help. She didn't show the friend her answers (at least from what I was told, not just from her, but from others in the school, some teachers included), just offered some guidance as to what to do and such. Apparently some teacher saw this though and reported it. My sister and the friend both were failed on the assignment and written up for cheating. To me, that's too extreme and ridiculous. Now if it's like your situation Icarus where you've told them not to work together and make them sign on their honor that they aren't to work together, I can see them failing and getting in trouble for it. Heck even without those clauses, if it was a take home quiz or test, I could see failing someone if you saw them copying. It's when any sort of help is considered cheating that I just think it's bad. By this standard (which as I said my old HS has adopted), I've helped hundreds of people cheat, because I was always willing to offer help on assignments (even if it had been years since I had taken the class). Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but it just irritates me. Another case of the dishonorable getting the honorable in trouble. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Really, AC? So if I assisted someone in obtaining poison with which I knew they planned to kill themselves, that would be doing them a favor?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Icarus, I support your views 100%. The parents fighting the punishment are setting a terrible example, and I hope your school does not give into the pressure.
Having said that, I have to confess that I really hate take home exams. Take home exams are unfair for the honest students.
I took a whole bunch of them in college and law school, and every single time I know a lot of students cheated on those exams.
Unlike your student, most of the cheaters I know are sophisticated enough not to start copying each other's answer in school. In my experience, these cheaters are rarely caught, and even when they were accused of cheating, I've never seen them kicked out of school.
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Sure, if they really wanted to die. If I decide to commit suicide, I would get pissed at anyone who stood in my way (though it wouldn't bother me if they didn't want to help). (Whether or not I or somebody else might ever rationally decide to end their own life is something for another thread)
posted
I may not have stressed how much time I spend...passing over my paper is a rare occurance indeed. And they have had to at least tried it - generally I'm in a "I need help but can't go to the teacher" role.
Good way for meeting girls.
Oh, and with all this talk of honour, the American loathing of the letter u is really starting to freak me out.
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It should be a never occurrence. At the very least if it's a test or a quiz. (I disapprove of copying homework, but it's not quite as bad, IMO.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Icarus, it's definately reasonable of you to expect honorable behavior. I've had a number of take home exams in both high school and college and maybe it's just me, but it's never crossed my mind to compare notes with someone else, especially when you can use the book for help. For homework I think asking people for help is ok because if you don't understand something, how else are you supposed to learn. Copying is one thing (though I agree with rivka, it's not as bad, but it's still sort of bad), asking for help is another.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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So... Doing me a favor = Doing something that helps me, whether or not I want it Or Doing me a favor = Doing something I want, whether or not it helps me
Which is it?
If it involves hurting me, I'd prefer you don't do me those favors. A good friend would not do favors that hurt you.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
And as to the topic, I think it has ALWAYS been reasonable to demand honorable behavior, but has ALWAYS been unreasonable to think these things will not happen. People will cheat. That's not so huge a problem, though, as long as they still get punished. Then it is a lesson.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
the way I look at it, doing something I don't want won't help me, or the amount of help will be far outweighed by the fact that I didn't want you to do it.
Posts: 151 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:the way I look at it, doing something I don't want won't help me, or the amount of help will be far outweighed by the fact that I didn't want you to do it.
My child doesn't want me to take her to the doctor. So, am I doing her a favor if I just let her stay home and stay sick? Should I acquiesce to her wishes because any benefit of me taking her to the doctor is outweighed by the fact that she doesn't want me to take her?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I think there is more than one definition of "favor" and people are using the word in different contexts so what you get is a battle of semantics.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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AC, I feel like you disregard the other person's best interests when you try to help them. Yea, ok, someone wants to committ suicide and yea, they'll be pissed if you try to stop them, but really, if they can get help, they will probably be happy that you didn't help them.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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I am not so sure for a young child but for me, as an adult, no matter how sick I am, it is my choice and mine alone whether or not to seek treatment
Posts: 151 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
So if you were falling over with some disease and someone asked you if you wanted treatment and you said no, you would be mad if they called an ambulence to take you to the hospital?
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Another case of the dishonorable getting the honorable in trouble. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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They really take the honor code seriously there. And it's not enforced by staff or faculty.
