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Icarus, you're in the right, of course. You couldn't have been more clear or documented better than you did.
I recall once my biology teacher gave a short pop quiz and I got the carpal bones and tarsal bones reversed. I knew I was having trouble getting them straight and finally guessed... wrong. The girl behind me also guessed wrong. Nobody else guessed wrong. We both made a 60 just by missing that question and he reported us for cheating. He figured since we were the only two who missed the question, we must have cheated. I was sitting in front of her! I thought it got resolved because there was no punishment for me. But OTOH the other girl mysteriously wasn't in NHS that year. The teacher then decided to make this pop quiz worth 25% of our grade that semester. Considering everyone else made a 100 that made everyones' day. I had the highest grade in the class aside from that so I still did pretty well.
I think he did that to punish me the only way left open to him. Holy cow. I never put that together before. We speculated a lot on why that girl was not in NHS anymore
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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AC, I like the way you think. I wish you were President of the USA so I wouldn't have to go to school anymore. I don't like school, so who are my parents to tell me that school is good for me? I think most of the teenagers in this country wouldn't attend school if they weren't forced to.
Posts: 853 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Well, I have less warm fuzzy memories of him now than I did... it was his first year of teaching and his father was one of my favorite professors in college.
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In my civilian life, and in my military (reserve) life, I haven't used anything I learned from nonmilitary schools past 7th grade or so. At that time in my life, I would have attended school even if not forced because I believed it when I was told that this knowledge, or at least the skills developed in attaining that knowledge would be invaluable later on. So far that has not been borne out.
Posts: 151 | Registered: Apr 2005
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When I was in middle school I had a few take home tests for Algebra. When she gave us the test it would be in an sealed envelope that she would stamp with her name along the flap. We were allowed to use books, notes, online resources, but no people. When we finished the test, we had to have a parent/guardian sign the bottom of the test as well as signing along the sealed flap of a new envelope that we sealed it in. That made it much harder (though obviously not impossible) to cheat. My mom trusted me enough that she would take my word for it that I hadn't discussed it with anyone or anything, so it would've been possible for me to call someone, ask for the answers, and then lie to my mom, but it really wouldn't have been worth it. For one thing, I could easily do the problems much quicker than it would've taken to get the answers from someone else, but I also knew that I would've been in huge trouble if I were caught cheating.
An example of a teacher having unrealistic expections, though, was my Spanish teacher freshman year of high school. We would have a quiz every friday on the material we'd learned during the week. During the quiz, he would hand out all of the homework and classwork from the week. Even if you weren't trying to cheat, you had to look at the papers to read the name so you would know whether to pass it back to someone behind you or hold on to it. It was very hard to not see at least a few random words or phrases, especially since the top of the paper (right under the name) generally had the grammar rules in big letters. (ie a<-->e) It's really difficult to remain honest and honorable when the teacher is handing the answers to you during the quiz and you know that the majority of the class was using that to their full advantage. I'm pretty sure that I was probably the only one in the room who didn't intentionally leave the homeworks face up every single time.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I had a student last semester who plagiarized his final paper. Copied about half of it (with slight re-wording) from an online study guide and a paper by a professor from Oxford. At the disciplinary hearing he claimed not to have known he was doing anything wrong, and said this was normal at his high school.
This from one of America's "best and brightest" young college students. He ended up with a year's suspension.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I really despise take home tests that have right and wrong answers. I think they punish the honest students. Students most definetly work together and compare answers. With grades becoming increasingly important to students and grade inflation making previously average grades unacceptable the pressure on students to cheat on take home exams is enormous. Even the parents who are suppose to be setting the good example are often applying the pressure to use any means necessary to achieve the goal.
In grad school, all of my tests were take home. I didn't mind them though because there were no right answers. I am a public speaking and political communication student and they were all essay exams. While we still would talk about general ideas there was no way to use people or the book to get a good grade if you didn't know the material and didn't have original ways to apply the information. I think these tests were fine and fair. The one class that I had that was quanitative in nature though had take homes and the entire class had get togethers to do them. I don't think anyone ever got one wrong. So either the professor was particularly dense or he expected the class would work together.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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Students in the HONOR society and in HONOR classes should not cheat. Period. You go Icarus!
No one should LOWER their expectations because of the decline in ethics in our society. Kids should still be expected to rise to our expectations. We just shouldn't be surprised that fewer and fewer of them are not meeting our very reasonable, justified expectations that they be good citizens. Neh?
Another teacher point of view: I know they cheat on homework but I tell them the consequences for doing so and I stress that they are only hurting themselves by not actually doing the work. I teach language arts so it is a little harder to copy though. When I catch students cheating on work from another class (happens often in math), I march them down to the math teacher who throws their work in the trash. It is very effective. On another note, I throw kids' work in the trash if they don't put their name on it!
AC, it is sad that those schools you say taught you nothing, didn't get around to teaching you character education. Maybe they did but you were too busy cheating.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I had a student last semester who plagiarized his final paper. Copied about half of it (with slight re-wording) from an online study guide and a paper by a professor from Oxford. At the disciplinary hearing he claimed not to have known he was doing anything wrong, and said this was normal at his high school.
This from one of America's "best and brightest" young college students. He ended up with a year's suspension.
Party of my university's plagiarism code addresses the unintentional part. I don't personally know anyone who's gotten caught and used that excuse, or anyone who's plagiarized in general, so I don't know what would happen here.
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Well see I go back to my thing about having to be very definitive about the definitions of cheating and helping. I recall in my senior year that I was helping many with Calculus homework. I never once showed someone my paper and let them copy answers. I did sit with them and tried to explain concepts to them (things like integration and the like). According to myself, I wasn't cheating in any way. I was offering assistance, perhaps even tutoring if you will (at no cost even), to someone who asked for my help. According to my school's policy though, I was cheating and should be failed. I think distinctions need to be made.
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AC, I was in the Canadian military as a W TechL. Well in the military I learned many things that I didn't know. However I also used knowledge from high school and other schooling I have had. Not all military jobs call for the same knowledge base and just because you haven't used your book learning doesn't mean you haven't used other skills you picked up in high school.
*looks like MandyM beat me to it Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mandy, your last paragraph very nicely put what I was unsuccessfully attempting trying to think of a polite way to say. Thanks.
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I'm actually of two minds about this. Yes, cheating is wrong. It's particulary wrong in this case when the students agreed to not copy answers from each other.
On the other hand, most of the classes that I've ever taken,and particularly the maths (because I suck at math), I've worked with other people whenever possible. Not to cheat, but to work with them to check my answers, and so we could learn from each other. But of course, if the instructor wanted me to do something by myself, I would. Take home quizzes aren't that rare.
I guess the point I'd like to make is that it seems to me that not working together outside of class for a lot of students is the exception, rather than the rule, and that some, maybe a lot of students, don't see the utility of doing things alone. So, while it's not understandable that the students cheated when they said they wouldn't, there may be a little more to it than that they have no sense of honor.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I guess that came out wrong. I actually really like the prof and am sure that he knew people worked together on the test. I guess at the point that everyone has the same answers to every question it becomes pretty obvious and either he was happy that we worked the answers even if it did take 10 people or he just didn't care to put forth the effort to design a test that people wouldn't cheat on. I think it is a bit naive to expect that people don't compare answers on a take home test. There is little risk to doing so and a large consequence to not doing so.
I taught a basic speech class and I can't imagine that I could have given a take home test that people wouldn't have cheated on. So, I gave homework and if they chose just to copy they would pay the price later when they took the test in the classroom but I certainly would have expected copying if everything was take home.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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I took a look at CalTech's honor system. If only society in general could be like that. I would also be ecstatic if my school adopted it. It sounds like a great system to live under.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I guess I'm naive. I took dozens of take home tests as an undergrad, and it never occurred to me to compare answers before handing them in. This wasn't unique - lots of us would photocopy our tests before handing it in and talk about it after.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Rivka, I thought you were very clear. But maybe since cheating is OK, politeness is too subtle and easily misunderstood. You know what I mean? Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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And let me point out that there is certainly a difference between COPYING (which is cheating) and EXPLAINING. Explaining actually helps someone understand. Copying lets them get away with not understanding.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I guess I'm naive. I took dozens of take home tests as an undergrad, and it never occurred to me to compare answers before handing them in. This wasn't unique - lots of us would photocopy our tests before handing it in and talk about it after.
If you're naive, then I'm just as naive as you are. It boggles me that people would think of doing stuff like that, but I'm a rule follower in general.
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The part that is naive is thinking that in a class of 35 students NONE of them will copy. I would expect some, perhaps even most wouldn't. But I would certainly predict that some would
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I understand that there's a difference between the two, and that was my argument. Some schools (at least the ones in my area) seem to be saying that it's all one in the same. If they see two people looking at a piece of homework during school hours, it can be written up as cheating, whether or not there is any copying going on or not. It's just too much suspicion. As I said in my first post on the topic, the cheaters are getting those of us who don't cheat in trouble. Cheating is so rampant that the restrictions in place to stop are hindering and hurting people who have honor and integrity.
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I think that if you want to cheat, you should not do it in another teacher's classroom. That's just stupid.
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I knew of a situation at my medical school in Galveston that involved cheating. It was discussed openly in our ethics class as part of the education. There was a set of twins in the medical school about three years ahead of me. They had to write this paper on ethics for the ethics class. One twin typed out the paper. The other photocopied it and turned the poorer copy in for his own paper. Talk about ironic. They got expelled but their father was apparently a very rich and famous surgeon and he hired a very good lawyer and they went all the way to the top fighting it. Finally the school gave in and put the twins back in medical school. They both went into lucrative surgical residencies and are probably quite rich now. So cheating and being rich does work out sometimes.
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theresa, feel free to explore this tangent, but be aware that this was not the question I asked. I didn't ask whether it was naive to think that nobody would cheat, or unrealistic to expect it. I was actually quite specific.
I asked if it was unreasonable to demand that students have honor.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I was actually pretty shocked how much cheating (or at least, how much complaining the professors do about it) goes on in college. Maybe my high school classmates were just better at hiding it?
It really frightens me that people who cheat because they can't be bothered to do basic physics will be the ones building bridges and designing defibrillators someday. Cheating doesn't harm you--it harms everyone who trusts that your grades are a reasonably accurate reflection of what you know. And it can hurt your classmates. If there's a curve, those who don't cheat may be at a disadvantage. If you work in a group, you can harm the grades of your fellow group members if you all get caught cheating.
Cheating hurts everyone. Don't cheat, don't help other people cheat.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Sorry if I went off on a tangent, Icarus. I'd agree that it's not unreasonable to demand that students have honor. I'd expect most students to have honor.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Ic, my computer math teacher in junior high encouraged cheating. He said life wasn't fair. He left all his tests and homework problems the same. People borrowed their older brothers' and sisters' answers. They sat together in groups to answer problems. They had answers hidden in desks during tests. When other kids complained he told them that was the way life worked. The teacher literally seemed happy to see them proving him right. "Life isn't fair."
Turns out his wife was having an affair with the mother of someone in my class.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I have a question. People have been emphasizing the fact that it was an honors class. Now, does that mean that just because someone can do math better than other students they are expected to have more honor than those students in lower level classes? Honor should be expected of all students, regardless of the level of class, no more honor should be expected of a student in a higher level class than in a lower level class. "Honors" is just a term to differentiate how hard the class will be.
National Honor Society is different. I was just talking to a housemate about this and he said that most of the kids in his school who applied lied on their applications. The day they were due, they were running around the halls asking people to sign off on community service that they didn't really do.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MandyM: Rivka, I thought you were very clear. But maybe since cheating is OK, politeness is too subtle and easily misunderstood. You know what I mean?
Mandy, totally. Although I wasn't referring to anything I posted, but some of the truly snarky stuff I didn't post. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: National Honor Society is different. I was just talking to a housemate about this and he said that most of the kids in his school who applied lied on their applications. The day they were due, they were running around the halls asking people to sign off on community service that they didn't really do.
This happens all the time. I got rejected by NHS the first time I applied because I only had a few things on my list (since it was all totally honest). A few people I know though had people sign off on stuff they didn't do (one guy's mother was on the PTA and signed that he worked every weekend for them when he really didn't), and they all got in. So yeah, I think there's not as much honor in the National Honor Society as there should be. It's frustrating to people like me who get rejected because others lie on their application.
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Yea, I got rejected the first time I applied as well, due to lack of community service. This other guy got kicked out due to drunk driving.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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I got rejected the first time for "lack of leadership", even though I was the treasurer for a club. The next year I applied without much change to my application (I think I added 3 more hours of community service, but it wasn't much of a difference) and I got in. So yeah, I definitely blame the cheaters there for keeping me out the first year.
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And to answer your question kojabu, I think it is more of a responisbility issue than an honor issue really. I expect my honors students to be more responsible. They are certainly prone to mistakes just like my regular classes but they should be the ones trying harder in class, not the ones skating by by cheating. You know?
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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It isn't that others aren't expected to have honor, it is that if you attach yourself to a group that bargs about honor, and has that word in it's title, then the hypocracy hit a little harder...
It makes it an even more irritating issue.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MandyM: And to answer your question kojabu, I think it is more of a responisbility issue than an honor issue really. I expect my honors students to be more responsible. They are certainly prone to mistakes just like my regular classes but they should be the ones trying harder in class, not the ones skating by by cheating. You know?
Yea, but I still think that regardless of the skill level, it should still be expected of the student. Why shouldn't students in modified classes be the ones trying harder so that they can learn the material and maybe move up a level?
I think it really just comes down to no one should cheat, eh?
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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The idea that working with others on homework assignments is considered cheating in some places boggles my mind. Tests and quizes I understand, because they're in place as a measure of how much you've learned. Homework, on the other hand, exists in order to teach you what you need to learn. I don't know about anyone else, but personally I learn a lot more if I do a math problem wrong, check it with a friend, figure out why, and redo it correctly than I do when I do it wrong and get a big red mark. Honestly the only reason I could think of for that not to be allowed is if the school is trying to hinder your ability to learn as much as possible.
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In comparison to children, adults are no less capable of wanting things that are bad for them. They may have a right to do what they want, but that does not mean you are really helping them when you assist in the fulfillment of mistaken desires.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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blacwolve, there's a huge difference between working with a friend on homework (or checking your already-done homework against a friend's) and just copying their work. Neh?
As I tell my students, I see nothing wrong with the first, but have a real problem with the second.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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It is also VERY important that the teacher makes clear whether copying or sharing work is allowed on an assignment. I specifically recall professors in college who left the question ambiguous, and thus left me in the tricky situation of having to guess whether it would be wrong to share on a given assignment or whether I'd be putting myself at an unfair disadvantage if I didn't. I've taken tests in the past where collaboration was allowed, so it really should be spelled out for take-home tests if it is not... especially for younger students.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I find myself, inexplicably, in total agreement with Tres.
If a student makes the choice to turn in work that is not theirs, then they must live with the consequences of that choice.
It is entirely reasonable to expect students to be honorable. It is entirely reasonable to expect students not to cheat, nor to share answers, nor to perform any of the myriad actions that would count as intellectual dishonesty.
It is also entirely reasonable for every adult to live their lives according to the laws written by the government.
Will all live up to expectations? No. But those that fall short must face the consequences of their actions.
***
On an other point, helping someone to cheat does not do them a favor in the long run. In the short term, that student may well get a higher grade. That higher grade may even lead to something like NHS.
However, in giving another person your work to pass off as their own, in allowing them to receive credit when there was no learning or understanding, you have set that person back.
As a teacher, I could do my students a *favor* and give them all A's for all their work, no matter what the quality. They would be happy, I'm sure, but did I do them any favor by setting them an entire year behind their peers in math?
Is it a favor to rob them of the knowledge that would give them a competitive advantage later in life, to essentially handicap them so that they have to work harder later to fill in the gaps they left along teh way?
Cheating focuses on the grade, not on the understanding. It is a result of students whose priorities are skewed (or the priorities of their parents). Encouraging or aiding the behavior just causes more damage.
Rather than saying you're giving someone poison, it's more like lending cigarettes or a light. Sure, it's harmless, and it's what the person wants - and if you don't give it to them, they'll just find someone else to do it, possibly thinking less of you in the bargain.
But you did them no favor.
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