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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Gas Prices, Katrina's Second Blow (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Gas Prices, Katrina's Second Blow
Glenn Arnold
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I didn't have showers at work when I rode to work. Bicycling tends to keep you cool, since there is a constant wind, unless you're climbing a hill.

Very rarely did I feel a need for a shower, and mostly it was coming home in the afternoon. It's generally pretty cool in the morning, except for a few days a year. (at least around here)

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Katarain
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People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.

For instance, I think it's Charlotte (might be another NC city) which has most of its workers living outside of the city. And it's not like they could change that now.

America is spread out... it's vast. You can't fairly compare it to England and European countries. It's easier to live on a smaller scale there, as they still have neighborhoods with everything you need readily accessable.

In America, though, if you work in the city, chances are you don't live there. And if you live in the "country," chances are things are so spread out that you HAVE to drive to go shopping and go to work.

Maybe if you live in the city and work in the city, biking becomes advantageous... even necessary.

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Storm Saxon
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I think one of the obvious effects of high(er) gas prices is that we'll see a return to nuclear cities....
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El JT de Spang
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Glenn,
I'm fine. My hometown (Hammond) took serious wind damage and the last I heard they'll be without power for 4-6 weeks. A couple of my friends houses got hit by trees, but everyone's alright, and I heard a lot of "It could have been much worse."

My brother is staying with me till LSU goes back to school, cause he still doesn't have power in Baton Rouge. We're all fine though, thanks for asking.

A lot of my friends from college have apparently been freaking out a little cause they can't get in touch with me (my cellphone is a Hammond number, and it's virtually useless) but I think I've passed the word around to everyone by now.

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Bokonon
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I think one of the obvious effects of high(er) gas prices is that we'll see a return to nuclear cities....

Never!

I refuse to glow in the dark!

-Bok

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Noemon
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I live 7 miles from work, and I would love to bike to work during all but the harshest months of winter, but there are only two routes that I could really take. One of them involves being on one interstate and one state route for most of the way, both of which strike me as foolish places to ride a bike, and the other is through a series of incredibly bad neighborhoods, in which I definitely wouldn't be safe.

I'd like to carpool with someone, but there doesn't seem to be anyone in my general area who works in my building.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.
Curious that you would say that because I'm the one who said it and I have lived in the Western US for virtually all of my life.
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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Its $3.19 in San Diego right now.
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Glenn Arnold
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El JT de Spang,

I had to reread your post a couple of times before I figured out you can't be posting from Hammond, 'cause wherever you are still has power. I'd guess there will be problems all over what with shortages and so forth.

Good luck.

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:

People who seriously say that driving 15 miles to work every day is unacceptable don't understand what it's like to live in America from a purely geographic standpoint.

Which is one of the major arguments against urban sprawl. There was a time when towns were built in such a way that everything was within walking distance.

Then again, 15 miles is within biking distance, yet most people don't see it that way. It doesn't really matter whether winter or other weather interferes with riding your bike, because anytime you can ride your bike is better than nothing.

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MrSquicky
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Biking...bah. I roller blade to public trans hubs and get around that way. Storage is so much easier and blading is a lot more fun. You're kinda screwed if it rains though.

The "bike/blade/pogo stick" to the office initiative is one that I'd love to see carried out, and not just because it would make my life a lot easier. It'd be good for the country, economically, healthy wise, pollution wise, and psychologically. Goodness knows, perhaps the rising gas prices might make this a possibility.

---

So, perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the whole "stratgeic crude oil reserves" and "Increassed oil production" and "price for barrels of crude oil" things unrelated to what's actually happened? That is, except in public perception and people trying to make a quick buck out of it. We've lost refining capacity, not a significant volume of crude oil. The price of barrels of oil is going up because people see an oppurtunity to make money, not because there's any realistic reason why crude oil has become a more valuable commodity, right? I mean, the demand will be effectively lessened as the crude to refined oil throughput is now significantly lower until these refineries (or something replacing them) come back on line.

In the same vein, what the heck is having strategic reserves of crue oil or OPEC pumping out more crude oil going to help us with? As far as I can tell, the supply of crude hasn't changed.

Also, <insert rant about gas stations indulging in price gouging>.

[ August 31, 2005, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

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J T Stryker
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quote:
Since prices went up this summer I had already been driving as little as possible, and combining errands so I can conserve gas, but now that school has started I'm going to need at least a tank a week even if I go nowhere but school and back.
I'm the same way. But my problem is that:

1. I live about 13 miles outside of the city limits

2. I'm a full time student in High-school. That means I have to be at school by 7:45 at the latest, which would put me at getting up around 5am to bike there.

3. I work in a theatre. I usually don't get off till about 2 or 3 am. I need to sleep at least 3 hours before even attempting to go to school.

4. I live in rural Indiana... There are a lot of hills, blind curves and pot-hole infested roads between me and town. there are several bicycling fatalities a year. I do not care to be one of them.

5. My income is not predictable. At the moment, I am getting steady work. However, since I'm low on the seniority list (but high on the skills list) I have little job security. If my Unions business agent only has 5 jobs open for a show, and none of them require one of my specific skills (rigging), then the odds of him getting through the 30 some people ahead of me is extremely low.

So basically, I'm going to have to go into debt, in order to have any hopes of one day being able to get out of it....

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Storm Saxon
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There are long lines outside the gas stations in Orlando. I'm visiting my brother tonight and on the way here, all of them had cars lined up into the street. I'm having flashbacks to the '70s.

There are rumors going around that gas will run out in all or part of Florida and I think people are panicking.

I tend to think that's crazy talk. In this case, I think the market will find a way, but we'll see.

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Noemon
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Yeah Squick, opening up our crude oil reserves will do absolutely nothing to ease the gas crisis we seem to be finding ourselves in. The bottleneck right now is in refining the crude oil, not producing it. It's a gesture, pure and simple, designed to make people feel like the president is doing *something*, in much the same way the president's leaving his ranch and returning to Washington is a gesture.
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camus
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Hmm...55 miles away from where I work driving an old Cadillac. [Wall Bash]
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Noemon
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The upside of the rising gas prices is that it may focus our country on reducing its dependence on oil, and do it while oil is still plentiful enough that we'll have time to wean ourselves off of it.

Of course, a resonable person would have thought the same thing about the oil crisis of the 1970s, so you never know, but if I were to pick a silver lining for all of this that would be it.

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Storm Saxon
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Lots of gas stations with bags over the handles tonight. Had to pass three before I found a Shell with gas....
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Storm Saxon
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By the way, I think that before the country starts conserving energy, It'll turn to nuclear energy...in the nuclear cities. [Smile]
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Tstorm
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I'm kinda looking forward to doing my errands on bike tomorrow. Everything is close enough, and I don't have to haul lots of groceries. I'll save a gallon of gas, at least. [Smile]
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Shigosei
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I like living on a university campus in the middle of downtown. Classes? Five to fifteen minutes of walking. Food? In my dorm complex, and no more than twenty minutes to 50 restaurants. Mail? In my building. Doctor? Ten minutes. Library? Five minutes. My friends? Some are down the hallway. Movie theater? Twenty minutes. Rec center? Two minutes. Groceries are an issue, but I could probably ride the bus if I couldn't tag along when my friends with cars go.

Clearly, the solution is for all Americans to go back to college!

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Hmm216
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I live in Orlando,Fl and I waited 1 hour for gas. I had to use premium because that was that was left. Many of the gas stations were out of gas, and the ones that werent has long lines to get gas.
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katharina
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I had to wait for gas last night, but that's because the the girl in front of me finished pumping gas, then spent TEN MINUTES CLEANING EVERY WINDOW ON HER CAR TWICE. I swear she did it just to annoy me. I don't know what's wrong with her. >_<

And I paid $36 for 14 gallons of gas. That should last me until a week from tomorrow, though, now that the drive to work is less than four miles.

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Glenn Arnold
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I stand corrected: Bush has said that he hopes people will conserve gas.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:

Clearly, the solution is for all Americans to go back to college!

Really, colleges are a good model for planning. Many college not only have dorms for student housing, but also buy or build houses within walking distance to campus, which they sell to professors with the agreement that the proffessor has to sell it back to the college when they no longer work there.

Businesses (especially bars, but...) build up in a single district within walking distance, so students from campus can walk downtown for entertainment and shopping.

I question whether this is still true today, since most colleges have been in business for a long time. The infrastructure I'm talking about may predate the automobile in some cases, but thankfully colleges seem to stay in business for a very long time, so the infrastructure still exists.

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TheHumanTarget
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Doesn't Florida have its own refineries? Looking at the pipeline diagram... Pipeline Map
it appears that Florida is not connected to the Colonial Pipeline. It isn't all trucked in is it?

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Glenn Arnold
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The two short pipelines on the Florida peninsula both come from seaports. I'd guess that gasoline is brought to the seaports by ship, stored in tanks on shore and then transported by truck. Florida has a lot of coastline.
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The Rabbit
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I'd just like to point out that it's Thursday andI just read the following on the NPR website.

quote:
President Bush acknowledged in a news conference Thursday there would be a temporary disruption in the nation's oil supply, and he called on the country to conserve energy. "Don't buy gas if you don't need it," Bush said.
Remember, you heard it first from The Rabbit at Hatrack.com
We need a gloating icon.

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Glenn Arnold
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Look 4 posts back.
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The Rabbit
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Thanks Glenn, I appreciate nothing more than a man who admits he was wrong before it's pointed out.
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camus
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"Europe will dip into its emergency stocks of gasoline to help the United States through an energy crisis that began when Hurricane Katrina smashed into Gulf coast refiners, EU governments said on Friday.

Spain and Germany said they were ready and able to send fuel across the Atlantic in an operation coordinated by the West's energy watchdog, the International Energy Agency. A U.S. government official confirmed Washington had asked for help and said most of the gasoline would come from Europe."


Hopefully this helps things a little.

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The Rabbit
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How long does it take an tanker of gasoline to cross the Atlantic?
I seem to recall it's something on the order of 2 weeks.


Depending on the extent of the damage, gasoline from Europe might not make it here before most of the refineries are back up and running.

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Dagonee
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I wasn't sure how feasible shipping gasoline was. I'm glad to hear this, although I think you might be right about the timeframe.
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camus
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Well, it's a nice gesture anyway. And just knowing that there is more coming might lessen some of the fear about shortages and keep the prices from getting out of control right now.
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Dagonee
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That's very true, camus. It's stockpiling that will cause the major problems in the short term.
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Lyrhawn
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The IEA is releasing 60 million barrels of oil, gas and other refined materials over the next month, at 2 million barrels per day.

I don't know if that means giving, or selling, or what, but it certainly should help.

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fugu13
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There's a very interesting article in today's Financial Times on the IEA move. Specifically, people are pointing out how the emphasis on the US's massive Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which has long been criticized by other countries, has been proven ineffective in a very important real world scenario. Instead, Europe's much smaller supply of emergency gasoline (both publicly and privately held) is proving far more effective.
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Alucard...
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To put things in perspective, the IEA released 60 million barrels of oil and GW Bush authorized 30 million barrels to be released from our strategic reserves. Okay that's a start.

OPEC pumps out 30 million barrels per day.

I have a friend in the oil business, and the problem short-term is refining the crude oil we need for gasoline and other uses. Right now, the Federal Govt is struggling because its source of gasoline refining is without power due to Katrina. Expect gas to go to $4 per gallon if it is not already there.

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Treason
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Groan....I just spent $20 on 6 measley gallons of gas. I've also heard it's supposed to go up to $4 a gallon this weekend.
!

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Alucard...
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I bought a truck that has horrible gas mileage, and I average about 11.1MPG, but I knew that going in so I couldn't complain because I tow and haul a lot of different stuff.

But the dang thing has a 37 gallon tank and the last time I filled up was about 3 weeks ago when gas was around $2.49. I never knew it before this vehicle, but gas pumps actually shut off automatically when you reach a certain dollar value. I have had pumps shut off at $50 and $75 even. This next fill is going to suck, big time. I might even have to reset the pump twice this next fill.

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Treason
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Ok, I feel much better now!
(I have a Ford Focus.)
[Razz]

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Shanna
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I haven't driven my car in over 2 weeks. I've been walking to and from school everyday (which sucks in 105 degree weather) and I've been joining carpools to Walmart. I have Corolla and get excellent mileage, but with friends hoping to get gas to go home and help their family...I can't in good conscious use gas that I can do without.

Compared to the thousands walking out of NOLA on foot, I don't mind the inconvience.

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Peter Howell
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I just did the conversion calculations from litres/CAD to gallons/USD for Newfoundland's current prices... CAD$1.35/Litre works out to... drumroll please... USD$4.29/gallon... and I just got a message saying that it'll probably be going past $1.40 tomorrow! I am so glad that I don't own a car.
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fugu13
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Alucard: also, that's 30 million gallons of petroleum, which isn't the big problem, the big problem is there are no refineries to refine the petroleum. Bush's gesture will have little effect besides symbolism, whereas the IEA release will reach the gasoline market within the next week or so.
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Lyrhawn
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Well, actually the SPR release will have SOME effect. Refineries are the ones who requested the release, thus, they will be using the oil released to make gas to make up for the interupted supply from the Gulf.

Also, I LOVE my Ford Focus. It takes a beating and keeps on ticking, and has some sweet freeway gas mileage.

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fugu13
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I did say it would have little effect [Wink] .
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CORPSE-A-TRON
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If we didn't see the need to find alternative fuel sources and develop them, we should now...
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Dagonee
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quote:
Bush's gesture will have little effect besides symbolism, whereas the IEA release will reach the gasoline market within the next week or so.
Symbolism will have a decent effect if it stops or reduces hoarding.

And you're not helping by pointing out the release won't increase gas supplies. [Razz]

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fugu13
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Eh, the rest of the world has been telling the US to start stockpiling refined products for a while now, I'm perfectly happy to blame our government for not paying attention and then getting a bloody nose politically.

And get a bloody nose it has, the Financial Times yesterday used this headline to explain the situation: "Europe's offer of petrol places Bush in quandary" (its a British paper, so petrol means gasoline, here). Also, the immediate need for making gasoline out of what petroleum there is has led to a reduction in the production of heating oil . . . such that experts think there may well be a shortage of heating oil in the winter. Coincidentally, the IEA also has stockpiles of heating oil, while we do not.

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Dagonee
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I know this doesn't deal with lack of gas, but it was interesting.

This is still hype from the company, and there's some politicking in there. But, for what it's worth, a feasible method of producing petroleum from oil shale:

quote:
Shell's method, which it calls "in situ conversion," is simplicity itself in concept but exquisitely ingenious in execution. Terry O'Connor, a vice president for external and regulatory affairs at Shell Exploration and Production, explained how it's done (and they have done it, in several test projects):

Drill shafts into the oil-bearing rock. Drop heaters down the shaft. Cook the rock until the hydrocarbons boil off, the lightest and most desirable first. Collect them.

Please note, you don't have to go looking for oil fields when you're brewing your own.

On one small test plot about 20 feet by 35 feet, on land Shell owns, they started heating the rock in early 2004. "Product" - about one-third natural gas, two-thirds light crude - began to appear in September 2004. They turned the heaters off about a month ago, after harvesting about 1,500 barrels of oil.

While we were trying to do the math, O'Connor told us the answers. Upwards of a million barrels an acre, a billion barrels a square mile. And the oil shale formation in the Green River Basin, most of which is in Colorado, covers more than a thousand square miles - the largest fossil fuel deposits in the world.

Wow.

They don't need subsidies; the process should be commercially feasible with world oil prices at $30 a barrel. The energy balance is favorable; under a conservative life-cycle analysis, it should yield 3.5 units of energy for every 1 unit used in production. The process recovers about 10 times as much oil as mining the rock and crushing and cooking it at the surface, and it's a more desirable grade. Reclamation is easier because the only thing that comes to the surface is the oil you want.

If the yield is consistent - which is hardly a given - then each square mile would yield about 49 days worth of U.S. oil consumption. The 1,000 square miles of the formation would yield about 134 years worth of consumption at the current rate. Again, this is dependent on the process scaling up well enough. And, of course, consumption will likely increase. *sigh*

But it's still potentially good news.

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Avadaru
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I'm down to less than half a tank, and starting to panic because I'm not sure how I'm going to get to work once I run out. I finally found a station that had gas yesterday, but they were only taking cash and all I had was a five. I paid $3.09. That station is out of gas now. I hear rumors about stations that have plenty of gas, but most of them are across the MS river from me, and I'm afraid if I drive all the way over there, I won't be able to find any. It's a pretty crappy situation all around. [Dont Know]
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