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I am against government intervention? Only if the majority of the people are against it ala' democracy. I tend to lean more towards popular majority democracy than communism, anarchy or minority tyranny forms.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Um. what? Am I totally misunderstanding you or you me? Just to be clear: I meant I am against government intervention (I am a Libertarian) and Michael Moore seems to always want more of it.. see?
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I like him for standing up for what he believes in. I like him for getting in people's faces and not backing down. I like his conviction and compassion. I like his willingness to DO something about the problems he sees, he is trying to change the world. I like that he is not a republican basher. He does not care who is in office as long as they are honest, knowledgeable and care about freedom. I like that he is always trying to get help for people who don't have the money or the fame to get help themselves. He is the hero of the underdog, to me. I don't always agree with everything he says, but I adore the man. I love John Stewart just as much, who seems to have a better reputation around here. I think JS wants many (not all! before you argue that point) of the same things MM does, he is just quieter. Now I am off to bed! So darn tired.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Very true, Treason: people may disagree with his tactics, but Moore does have the courage of his convictions. And he sticks up for the underdog.
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I don't find propaganda-spewing ideologues very courageous:) Or at least not the courage that's worthy of admiration. Fred Phelps is brave, after all, isn't he?
MM has made lots of money by being rudely in people's faces. It's not like it's a sacrifice for him to do so.
I fail to see evidence of much compassion. Certainly not above and beyond other people who are compassionate without the lying jackassery.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jon Stewart doesn't completely edit his guests's words to the point that they're saying whatever it is he wants them to say, and then blast them for it.
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"Fred Phelps is brave, after all, isn't he?" Really? You REALLY want to say those two are alike? I can't take any argument you make seriously after that.
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Or at least that being brave doesn't always make it OK to hold specific views, and proclaim them to all who will listen, anyway. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I really didn't think it meant he admires Phelps at all, I didn't say that. I said he is saying they are alike.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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You're right, you didn't specifically say Michael Moore was brave. I inferred that from other things you said, since you were using words that could be synonymous with courage.
As for Phelps, I was pointing out that many of the things you said about Moore could be said of Phelps as well...and thus pointing out that the things you mentioned don't make an admirable person, necessarily.
And Glenn, I think Moore is Phelps-lite Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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"As for Phelps, I was pointing out that many of the things you said about Moore could be said of Phelps as well...and thus pointing out that the things you mentioned don't make an admirable person, necessarily."
There are things that can be said about anyone to make them sound good. I can say some of these things about Hitler as well, but I don't admire the man for goodness sakes. Phelps spouts hatred and bigotry and you compare him with a man who honestly wants to help people, no matter how annoying he is going about it? A man who expects our leaders to be hardworking and honest? I like Moore for all the things I said before, but I also just like HIM. I think he's a good guy, ok? I would have fun hanging out with him. He only wants to help people and make America a better place. I said before I don't always agree with him, but I respect him and I realize he is trying to do his best to make things fair and free for everyone.
Also- J T "Treason... your true colors are shinning..." I don't know what you mean, sorry.
BTW "Godwin's law revisited." there you go! Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Michael Moore letter - I left out some of the parts that would annoy everyone, just wanted you to see where you can send help immediately :
But today I want you to join with me in bypassing the colossally inept and incompetent Bush administration and get help DIRECTLY to the people of the New Orleans area -- right now.
A lot of you have written me to ask what you can do. Many don't know who to trust. Many want to do more than write a check. You are right to think that writing checks to relief agencies will not get water and aid to people in the next 48 hours. Checks will be needed later and can be written later.
I have a way, though, for each and every one of us to do something today that can affect people's lives TODAY.
For the past few days I've been working with a group that, I guarantee you, will get direct aid to the people who need it most.
Cindy Sheehan, the brave woman who dared to challenge Mr. Bush at his summer home, has now sent her Camp Casey from in front of Bush's ranch to the outskirts of New Orleans. The Veterans for Peace have taken all the equipment and staff of volunteers and set up camp in Covington, Louisiana, on the shores of Lake Pontchartrain. They are accepting materials and personally distributing them to those in need.
This is where we come in. We need to ship supplies to them immediately. Today they need the following:
Paper plates, paper towels, toilet paper, baby diapers, baby wipes, baby formula, Pedialyte, baby items in general, powder, lotion, handy wipes, sterile gloves, electrolytes, LARGE cans of veggies, school supplies, and anything else to lift people's spirits.
You can ship these items by following the instructions on this site Or you can deliver them there in person. The roads to Covington are open. Here's how to get there. You can drop them off or you can stay and participate (if you stay, you'll be camping so bring your own tent and gear and mosquito spray).
If you can't ship these items or go there in person, then go to this site and make an immediate donation through PayPal. Camp Casey-Covington will have immediate access to this cash and can buy the items themselves from stores that are open in Louisiana (all donations to Veterans for Peace, are tax deductible).
Each day I will post up-to-the minute information as to what is needed and the progress Camp Casey is making. Please visit MichaelMoore.com often and do what you can to help.
Many other groups are also doing good work. MoveOn.org has set up a system for people to offer rooms in their homes to the survivors.
There is no time to waste. People are suffering and dying. Each of us can do something. There is no other alternative.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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You would have a good time hanging out with MM because you do admire him and think he's a good person, and primarily because of your politics.
It's plain to see how he treats those whose political beliefs differ from his, and it isn't with the respect, courtesy, and admiration you see in him, Treason. Moore routinely spouts off hatred and bigotry, as you correctly stated Phelps does.
I think it Moore honestly wanted to help people more than he wants to toot his own horn, he would behave differently. He's more than intelligent enough to know what his methods do to the opposition, and how likely he makes it that they will listen to him.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Incidentally, perhaps you can see my point when you have to edit his own letters to make them palatable. What he did to Charlton Heston-if you care enough to find out-demonstrates his character and integrity sufficiently for me.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:So is the war in Iraq causing troop shortfalls for hurricane relief in New Orleans?
In a word, no.
A look at the numbers should dispel that notion. Take the Army for example. There are 1,012,000 soldiers on active duty, in the Reserves, or in the National Guard. Of them, 261,000 are deployed overseas in 120 countries. Iraq accounts for 103,000 soldiers, or 10.2 percent of the Army.
That’s all? Yes, 10.2 percent. That datum is significant in itself, a good one to keep handy the next time someone talks about how our forces are stretched too thin, our troops are at the breaking point, and so forth. If you add in Afghanistan (15,000) and the support troops in Kuwait (10,000) you still only have 12.6 percent.
So where are the rest? 751,000 (74.2 percent) are in the U.S. About half are active duty, and half Guard and Reserve. The Guard is the real issue of course — the Left wants you to believe that the country has been denuded of its citizen soldiers, and that Louisiana has suffered inordinately because Guardsmen and women who would have been available to be mobilized by the state to stop looting and aid in reconstruction are instead risking their lives in Iraq.
Most to eh staeside personal left are support staff suooprting the troops in Iraq, and can't leave their posts because that would place US servicemembers at risk in Iraq.
The person who wrote that hadd ot either be ignorant of that fact, or lying to mislead the public.
We ARE streched out too thin, and even 10% of our troops missing takes a toll on the rescue efforts.
Just because someone isn't physically overseas doesn't mean they are free to help, or that they are not involved in the missions in Iraq...My aunt was never in Desert Storm, as in Iraq, but she was one of the higest ranking experts on rapid mobilization.
And she did her entire job for 4 years while remaining stateside. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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13% of our troops are over seas due to the war on terror.
Perhaps if the Mayor had a plan they wouldn't have had to release the entire prison population. Which must have contributed to the raping, looting, & shooting at rescue people & helicopters.
I mean seriously, why wasn't there any plans in advance for this nitemare?
quote:You would have a good time hanging out with MM because you do admire him and think he's a good person, and primarily because of your politics.
It's plain to see how he treats those whose political beliefs differ from his, and it isn't with the respect, courtesy, and admiration you see in him, Treason. Moore routinely spouts off hatred and bigotry, as you correctly stated Phelps does.
I think it Moore honestly wanted to help people more than he wants to toot his own horn, he would behave differently. He's more than intelligent enough to know what his methods do to the opposition, and how likely he makes it that they will listen to him.
I do wish you would stop putting words in my mouth. I don't believe I ever called MM respectful or courteous. That's not how he does things most of the time. He is like a sledgehammer.
Please give me some examples of his hatred and bigotry. I have never seen this. I have seen him be rude to people, I have seen him yell and I have seen him provoke but I've never seen the extremes that you do, I guess.
quote: Incidentally, perhaps you can see my point when you have to edit his own letters to make them palatable.
I did that for you and others in this thread who don't approve of him. I was trying to be nice. I am certainly not offended by him.
quote:What he did to Charlton Heston-if you care enough to find out-demonstrates his character and integrity sufficiently for me.
I already heard this whole story, thank you for assuming I did not "care enough to find out."
Here is what Moore said about it :
The Truth: Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word – read the transcript of his whole speech. Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.
Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.
As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image – hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone.". Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it?
You can go here and read the whole thing.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Are you really going to tell me MM doesn't routinely espouse hatred and contempt for the Bush Administration in particular and conservative Republicans in general? If you really think he isn't, then we're just never going to find any common ground at all.
I don't think someone who cannot muster up respect for their opposition is worthy of admiration. I guess I assumed you thought that was important.
I didn't say you were offended by him, I said that it was an example of how hateful and bigoted he is that the people he routinely lies about and screams at can't stand to hear from him. You've admitted you admire the man. You're not the one he's screaming at.
I'm not going to visit Michael Moore's website. I prefer not to give him the money, however indirectly However, regarding Charlton Heston...
I assumed you didn't know the whole story, because plainly you didn't. You're trusting a man who by his own admission crafts propaganda about his own propaganda? Take a look at the websites I've linked here. It'll take maybe ten minutes of your time. I assure you, I've read Moore's explanations of his behavior before. Used to visit his website all the time. Used to, in fact, agree with him frequently and admire him somewhat.
Michael Moore is a hack. He's sleazy, propaganda-crafting, self-promoting blowhard. He's nice the way Pat Roberston is nice when he does great charity work on one hand and suggests the assassination of foreign chiefs of state on the other.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: don't think someone who cannot muster up respect for their opposition is worthy of admiration. I guess I assumed you thought that was important.
Certainly that rule can't be set in stone. Not all opponents are worthy of respect to begin with.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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"Michael Moore is a hack. He's sleazy, propaganda-crafting, self-promoting blowhard. He's nice the way Pat Roberston is nice when he does great charity work on one hand and suggests the assassination of foreign chiefs of state on the other."
I am not going to argue with you anymore. It is pointless and I am tired of it. I was not name calling and being rude. I did not resort to this kind of talk about anyone you admire. Nor do I want to know who that may be. I don't feel the need to make myself look better by bashing people. Even Bush. I was only trying to defend a good man. I guess I'll be done with this thread.
Posts: 870 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I don't understand why Ann Coulter doesn't garner the same negative attention that Moore does.
Conservatives seem to hate him a lot more than Liberals hate Ann Coulter, and she is cut of the same cloth. Two sides of the same coin, I think I've said that before about them on Hatrack. I wonder what accounts for the difference.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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of the same things MM does, he is just quieter.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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