Irami, I think you're making the serious mistake of assuming that everyone who is concerned with good grammar and punctuation is obsessed with good grammar and punctuation. You start with worrying and then work your way up pretty quickly to fetishizing. That's a pretty big leap and a pretty big generalization.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Irami, I think you're making the serious mistake of assuming that everyone who is concerned with good grammar and punctuation is obsessed with good grammar and punctuation. You start with worrying and then work your way up pretty quickly to fetishizing.
Oh look! I have a fetish! I've always wanted one!
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Irami, I think you missed the point of Olivet's post. She was saying exactly what you said, but in a self-deprecating fable form, as stated in the subject, and minus the didactic approach. You wouldn't have understood that this lady's caring for her family was more important than her grammar errors if Olivet hadn't written it to make exactly that point. And I think the rest of us were pretty much making fun of our own tendencies to be preoccupied w/ nitpicking.
That said, the world DOES judge us on the way we write. So I go along w/ everyone else in saying that if it doesn't come naturally, have someone proofread stuff you send out for public consumption. Protection from the Grammar Nazis, if nothing else! ;-)
[edited to change 'poing' to 'point', LOL--a Freudian slip?]
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Actually, Irami is basically re-stating the original point of this thread. He's being a bit harsher than I intended, but maybe that's a good thing.
I wanted to tell a story that Grammar Nazis could identify with, then lead them, gently, along with me as I discovered the error of my ways.
It is stupid to judge someone based on their grammar or typing skills (unless, maybe, you are considering them for a job where those things are important). My point was that we're all basically the same. I don't watch soaps. I've been to college. Yet, this woman and I both experienced the pian of losing someone very close to us. The seismic shift of losing our mothers is something we share, something we both can speak to from our experience.
Everyone will make a grammar or spelling mistake -- even the most jaded Grammar obsessive, and I think none of us would like to be judged by that. Surely we can find soome happy balance between being puzzled by confusing or nonsensical spelling or punctuation and nit-picking each other to the point that we don't really see the other person.
I was trying to be light and gentle, but I must have erred on the side of caution.
It IS small and selfish to focus on something so trivial. When I referred to it as a "character flaw" I was NOT being ironic.
Allowing yourself to be distracted by such things is just another way of avoiding seeing the good in people, of lifting our small little selves above them.
Edit:Thank you, Uprooted. I'm glad somebody was listening. Irami and I have a bit of history, so I do sort of think he was trying to rile me up. *shrug* So it was ironic that he agreed with me, in essence. It maybe shows that I wasn't terribly clear to begin with, though. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I rewrote a resume yesterday. I really shouldn't have been doing it considering if he gets the job he'll leave the company. But he's a good egg. Weightlifter Bob asked me to help him out. WB read it and knew it needed massive help but that he couldn't do it quickly enough, and that I'd probably do a better job anyway.
I had nothing better to do because it's been slow in the lab and was a heck of a lot more fun than just cruising the internet all day.
I went on the company website that he was applying to, and lo, they had a specific format they wanted resumes in. The guys were amazed that I a) found the format and b) knew how to do it. They wanted it computer scannable, and no bullets, underlining, caps, font changes or anything. I did put his name in 14pt font and do a few headings bold, but kept it to an absolute minimum. The only other formatting tool I used was a single "tab" in.
They also had pretty pointed comments about what sort of specific details they were looking for on a resume which were quite helpful. (I was surprised; a lot of companies aren't quite that explicit.) Either way, what he had before sort of resembled a functional resume, and they were requesting a chronological resume. Turns out he has 17 years of CNC machining experience. You wouldn't have known it from his first resume.
With my revision it becomes immediately clear why he's fluent in English, Russian and Polish, with basic German and Greek. He lived in Poland behind the iron curtain, went to trade school, worked two years out of trade school, spent 2 years in the Polish Army, then 2 years with a German company that sent him to Greece for a year, then came to the US has 12 years of work history here.
The only thing I think I may have made a mistake on (and it isn't that major) is that his time in 'Germany' may have been before the Berlin wall fell so I probably should have said west or east but I didn't think of it at the time. The city is there though. And even with that the resume is at least 500 times better than it was there before, because he'd had more major factual mistakes in it prior to my revision.
Then I was a real softie and helped him out with the cover letter too. I hope he gets the job; it actually appears to be a pretty good fit of qualifications and experience. However, if he does, then I've lost my carte blanche I now have in the Tool room as a result of helping him out.
Really, his grammar wasn't that bad, it was simply he had no clue as to what was required on the modern resume. I was able to automatically do the little things, like making sure formatting is identical on every entry, that make a huge difference in readability. No one notices when they are there, but when they are missing the lack of continuity often throws the readers eye.
Maybe I should have been a technical writer. I'm anal retentive enough and I do enjoy it. When I'm free typing my spelling can get creative, but I can catch most spelling errors if I'm actually reading a piece of paper. I don't know if I'd still like it if it was what I *had* to do for work. Though I'd say about 35% of my job now does involve technical writing.
posted
Sigh, as far as the character flaw portion Olivet, do you ever catch yourself volunteering to do the writing for it, because you *know* you'll do a better job than anyone else in the room?
I mean I know compared to some of the people here on hatrack, I'm no great shakes at writing or editing. However compared to ordinary people (and I don't mean that condescendingly) I write in the upper 90%. Part of me resents that I end up in the 'writing' or note-taking roles in a couple of the meetings I attend because I'm also the only female in the room. Yet, logically I know I'm the best at it also. I go round and round on that aspect of my grammar snobbishness.
posted
Good grammar is like wearing the right shoes. It's not the whole of you, and you shouldn't really be judge by it... but it totally sets the tone for the whole package.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I get dragged into doing the writing a lot, because people know I have edited copy for pay. It's a double -edged sword, though, because people expect you to be 'perfect' which sometimes translates in people's heads to "no squiggles." *giggle-snort*
I think, as long as we are scrupulous about not judging people based on their inability to do things we seem naturally good at, then we're okay.
I mean, I wouldn't want to be judged by how I look in a bikini or how good I am at basketball. People DO judge others based on those kinds of things, but it is just as wrong as judging people harshly for a comma splice.
(I'm bad with commas, actually. Have to pay extra attention to them or I put in way too maany. *snort*)
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
The woman cares more about her mother than the difference between like and lack, and I'm happy to hear it.
It's silly that I can call her story perfect, explain the message clearly and correctly-- if forcefully-- and still be accused of antagonizing her.
I meant exactly what I said. Olivet was clear. I did understand, and she was right. If anything, I wanted to cut into all of the crap that came after the initial post. You are a tall, smart woman, Olivet, if I ever mean to rile you up, you'll know.
As to everyone else, my point was this:
quote:Allowing yourself to be distracted by such things is just another way of avoiding seeing the good in people, of lifting our small little selves above them.
Except when I said it, I wanted you to know that I was damn serious.
posted
So is it really small minded of me to still be thinking that grammar and spelling is very important and is something people should take care in?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I wouldn't go that far. It does make you look stupid if you do it wrong.
I think we should all take care in our own usage, and be helpful and supportive when we see an opportunity to help someone else. If someone is obviously struggling with these issues in work memos or email, offer to help out.
I just think it's wrong to be personally dissmissive of people based on bad skilz. It may be an indicator of the over-all picture, but it's still a surface thing. Professional stuff is slightly more serious, I suppose, but on a personal level I would prefer to be a person who sees people first, mistakes second. Or fifth. Just later than the really important, human stuff.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:So is it really small minded of me to still be thinking that grammar and spelling is very important and is something people should take care in?
No, it's not very important. I mean, some rules say that it's improper to end a sentence with a preposition.
Yes, people should take care in and try not to make the same mistake twice.
But I think your smallness comes in shoes. I like a nice pair of shoes, but what kind of package does that set the tone for?
These are all distractions and signs of decadence. It's as if we lost our compass for-- or became scared to talk about-- what matters, and elevated quibbling to fill in the gap.
__ Olivet,
Of course we are cool.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
On the other hand I draw the line at editing incorrect grammar in my boss' crappy review of me. I truly think that it was his poor writing skilz and my well written rebuttal that was why they made him redo it and give me at least a cost of living increase.
AJ
(moral of that story, if you are going to screw someone over, make sure your own story is written so it's airtight otherwise you look really dum)
posted
Irami, I apologize. I totally missed the "That said, the fable is perfect" line in your post, which really does clarify your meaning, so my response was pretty stupid!
I still take some offense at the "small work for small people" line, though. If you are indeed only referring to the Grammar Nazis who think that they are more intelligent than the common masses because they can spot a typo, then I agree. However, I think that editing is important work, so if that's your definition of "small work," then I disagree. Misspellings and misuse of punctuation, not to mention clumsy diction, get in the way of communication; I would not have understood "all we like are donuts" without Olivet's explanation.
That said, the fable IS perfect and the point well taken. Look, we probably all have a little *name your own expertise* nazi hiding within--the tendency to judge those who appear inept where we are capable. To be human, we have to tell that little nazi to shut up and look at the areas where that other person outshines us, or simply for common ground as humans.
For example, I'm not one to think Bush is an idiot because he's not particularly articulate. I also don't think an IQ test measures much of anything important about our value as human beings.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Olivet, I hope you know this is written with all the love in the world when I type: would you please stop posting fables and finish your Landmark????? <---- a sentence that should also have lots of !!! too.
Some of us are losing our grip on the edge of the cliff.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
Stick it in the dishwasher, if you've got one (and if the keyboard isn't part of a laptop ). Seriously.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: It IS small and selfish to focus on something so trivial. When I referred to it as a "character flaw" I was NOT being ironic.
Some of us do this for a living, you know. I don't appreciate having my livelihood referred to as a character flaw. Of course, this does not mean that I look down my nose at people who don't have superior writing skills.
Pretty much any personality attribute can be taken to a fault. Being concerned with language is not necessarily a bad thing.
And I'll second ketchupqueen again: Irami, you're being at least as petty and judgmental as you're accusing others of being.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jon Boy, hon, *I* do it for a living, too. People don't PAY me to nitpick their emails and forum postings, so if I do that, it is for my own amusement. It may not be amusement at looking smarter or or 'putting them in their place' but it still isn't a product of loving your neighbor. Unless it is a serious thing that is actually causing them harm somehow, in which case it would NOT be appropriate to do it in public, I think.
Edit: It just doesn't seem kind, to me. However, neither do Irami's comments, though I know that just seems to be his style.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away. By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.
Posts: 375 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, I am judging. I judge the lady in your story kind for caring about her mother more than the difference between like and lack. I judge your job as small, Jon Boy, if your job is merely correcting grammar. Your livelihood isn't a flaw. It's just small. You have a nice wife and a baby on the way. Those are both HUGE, so it's not as if more important work isn't cut out for you. I worked at a grocery store for years, and my job was pretty small too, and I gave people food.
Some people are accountants. You know what, accounting is small work. We need them, the profession is filled, fine. But if I went to an accounting website and saw a discussion of accountants laughing at those ignorant simps who can't do their own taxes, I would think the same thing about them. ___
As an aside, I went to a banquet for translators, mostly french, dutch, and spanish, and I found it hilarious how seriously these translators took their work. Now, translating is hard and necessarily business, but these people actually preened at their wit as if they had written the material. Again, translating is thoughtful work, but you should have seen these cats and kittens, purring at their own genius. They weren't even proud of the translations, they were proud of the plot of the stories and poems, again, as if they had written them.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That was one of the rudest, snobbiest, most uncharitable and most delusional things I've ever read.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Irami, do you not see translation--good translation, anyway--as a creative process? A good translator is an artist, I think. A different sort of an artist than an author, sure, but an artist nonetheless.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I usually try to keep mum about it, unless I'm being paid. I guess it's true, though, that many people are baffled by punctuation.
I'm not surprised, because I don't have a real high opinion on the average person's intelligence. I've just met too many people who are completely devoid of basic skills in math, reading comprehension, and writing.
I don't think having good grammar and expecting others to as well makes you a bad person. It's not about feeling superior. These are rules that everyone learned at some point, and the application of them is, to me, a matter of pride.
I work with people who have post graduate degrees in Architecture who routinely misspell words on construction documents. I'm talking about legally binding building plans that will still be on file long after everyone reading this thread is mummified. And I don't think that embarassment is an inappropriate reaction when reading a typo on something like that. The same thing goes for anything published. I could read my hometown paper with a red pen, because it typically has about 2-3 typos/misspellings per page.
I grit my teeth through most little things, especially in a public forum. But I still think not taking the time to glance over what you've written and fixing the obvious misspellings and common grammar usage mistakes is indicative of a person without any pride or self-respect.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Yes, I am judging. I judge the lady in your story kind for caring about her mother more than the difference between like and lack. I judge your job as small, Jon Boy, if your job is merely correcting grammar. Your livelihood isn't a flaw. It's just small. You have a nice wife and a baby on the way. Those are both HUGE, so it's not as if more important work isn't cut out for you. I worked at a grocery store for years, and my job was pretty small too, and I gave people food.
Some people are accountants. You know what, accounting is small work. We need them, the profession is filled, fine. But if I went to an accounting website and saw a discussion of accountants laughing at those ignorant simps who can't do their own taxes, I would think the same thing about them.
Sorry to double post, but this is obnoxious.
First of all, caring about your mother and caring about your grammar are not mutually exclusive. You don't have X amount of caring, and if you use any on writing you're a bad daughter.
How lucky we all are to have you here, Irami, judging everyone's livelihood. I like my job, and I think I'm good at it. But I guess I won't know if what I'm doing is worthwhile till I get the verdict from you, will I?
No job is small. That's one of the most arrogant things I've seen in a while. Every job provides a service, fulfills a need. And it's a good thing to be proud of what you do. What do you have against taking pride in your work? You should strive to be the best at something, anything. You should want to improve in some area everyday.
Could you list some professions that you don't consider "small"?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, Irami. I think it would be fair to judge you as unkind for dismissing the talents of others as trivial.
I mean, I think it is more important to care about people's feelings than whether or not they dot their i's.
Bu, isn't all work 'small'? Aren't all small things also important? Why do you find it necessary to be insulting? That really puzzles me. I don't understand it.
quote: Magnify the small, increse the few. Reward bitterness with care.
See simplicity in the complicated. Achieve greatness in little things.
In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy. In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds. The sage does not attempt anything very big, And thus achieves greatness.
Excerpt from SIXTY-THREE of the Tao te Ching
The whole point of this thread is that we do not lift ourselves up by putting other people down.
Anyone should care more about their mother's death than how they spell something. That makes you resonably normal, not necessarily kind. But it is kind to care more about a person's feelings than these trivial things.
That is the bit you seem to be murky on, at least in practice.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
That's crap. There is a reason why bartenders don't, historically, win the nobel peace prize. And why there is a tomb for the unknown soldier instead of the unknown dentist.
Olivet,
quote:But, isn't all work 'small'?
No.
quote:Aren't all small things also important?
At their time and in their place.
quote:Why do you find it necessary to be insulting?
A lot of the first page was spent teeing off on people with poor grammar, I'm just bringing the issue closer to home, if that's insulting, I think the people offended are puffed-up with too much misplaced pride.
quote:The sage does not attempt anything very big, And thus achieves greatness.
I think that that's crap, too.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I admit I was unhappy that it turned into a "look how dumb this is" thread.
But you admit that grammar is not your cuppa, so you're turninng it around on those who are good at it. So, "if that's insulting, I think the people offended are puffed-up with too much misplaced pride" doesn't seem at all an ironic thing for you to say? I mean, you're teeing off, too. But it's the teeing of that you object to, soo I just find answering insults with insults to be equally petty. Which was what I was trying to avoid. In fact, it was that sort of thing I started this thread to ask people to avoid. *headdesk*
And, I still don't see how caring more about your mother than an email makes you kind. I accept that all forms of 'teeing off' in this thread are unkind, though. I'm with you there.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hm. I wonder why everyone gets the impression that Jon Boy goes around picking apart people's grammar. I read a LOT of his posts and spend a LOT of time with him in person, and the only time he does it is when someone claims to be an expert on language or points out someone else's flaws--and has errors in their own condescending post. Seriously. I think people assume that because Jon Boy and I (and other language geeks) know a lot about English means that we spend every waking minute looking down on everyone who can't use punctuation correctly. Yes, we notice pretty much everything you're doing wrong. We can't help but notice. We do wish we could turn it off when we're not at work, but we don't know how.
But do we think you're stupid or annoying or worse than us? Nope. Extreme cases get annoying because they're difficult to read, and we know how much easier they would be to read if the writer just used a little bit more care.
As for my post on the first page, I didn't mean it at all condescendingly. I found it interesting that a Utah feature (sell/sale merge) was also common in the South. It made me wonder if that's where it originated before coming to Utah or if it's just a common occurrence and took place in two places independent of one another.
I can't say whether the other posts were meant to be condescending. I hate that everyone assumes "Grammar Nazi" means Jon Boy, though.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:That's crap. There is a reason why bartenders don't, historically, win the nobel peace prize. And why there is a tomb for the unknown soldier instead of the unknown dentist.
Yes, because if you die having not won a nobel prize your life was wasted. Let's see, 776 nobel laureates, roughly 10-12 billion people who've ever lived, that's roughly 0.000008% of the total cumulative population who had a worthwhile life.
And because a profession has a special tomb it's inherently better than all the others?
You're not mad at misplaced pride, you're mad at all pride. Which is just sad.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:But you admit that grammar is not your cuppa, so you're turninng it around on those who are good at it.
I admit no such thing, other than my incompetence and subsequent learning have shown me the error of your ways. (It's too bad if you are not smiling at the end of that line because I think my delivery would have you in stitches.)
I don't object to the teeing off. I just choose to tee off at the right people; however, I do understand your frustration. *shows a little leg for kmbboots*
Brinestone,
quote:I wonder why everyone gets the impression that Jon Boy goes around picking apart people's grammar.
Your husband volunteered. I took my shots at grammar Nazies. He said it was his profession. I said that's fine. He said he didn't appreciate me calling his profession small. I said his profession is small, but it's not a big deal; rather, you are a big deal. He called me hilarious, and I do appreciate that.
posted
Brinestone I didn't think of Jon Boy at all when I said Grammar Nazi, so I hope you don't think I was trying to insult ANYONE.
Grammar IS important, though. I mean, if you want to be writer, a lot of the pre-readers are Grammar Nazis, and they will slushpile you so fast your head will spin if you have bad skilz.
I'm not making a value judgement about that being the way it should be or anything. That's just the way it is. Or, the way it was when some people I know were doing that kind of work.
Grammar doesn't matter so much in a lot of fields, but I think it is valid to make professional vs personal distinctions.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh. *shrug* I started this thread because I thought that teeing off on peopple is something we shouldn't do. That still seems like a reasonable plea to me.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
Irami and I have a bit of history, so I do sort of think he was trying to rile me up. *shrug* So it was ironic that he agreed with me, in essence. It maybe shows that I wasn't terribly clear to begin with, though. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
So, we're cool?
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
That really puzzles me. I don't understand it.![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
