posted
On the ladies side of the debate, I often see baby girls who have pierced ears. Way before the age of consent, with no health benefit or religious rationale. Are their parents baby mutilators?
I have yet to hear any woman complain, though, about having her ears pierced.
Come to think of it, I have yet to hear a man complain about being circumcised.
I'm sure that whatever you choose, it will be among the least important factors in the long-term effects of your child-rearing.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
twinky has, maybe not complained, but wishes he hadn't, I believe.
Ela, it's not just the act itself, it's the whole idea of a sortof party for an act of disfiguration (even if it is minor disfiguration, and a commandment/tradition).
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Ela, it's not just the act itself, it's the whole idea of a sortof party for an act of disfiguration (even if it is minor disfiguration, and a commandment/tradition).
-Bok
Okay. Just saying I think a bris is a lot less stressful for the baby, if you are going to do it anyway, and the baby happens to be of Jewish parentage.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, I never actually checked, but I'm pretty sure that in France most men are not circumsized. So let's say your boy has sex with a French girl who already saw one or more penises, she would find it weird if he was circumsized. You can't assume your children will stay in the same environment forever. So well, I say don't do it, because I don't see any real use for it.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
BTW, Tante, I could be wrong, but I heard the hole could close up if you stopped to wear earrings long enough. There is no way the foreskin can repear itself... Not trying to make a point here, just thinking aloud. I'm sure I won't have my childrens' ears pierced. I did it as an adult so I know it doesn't hurt that much, but I'd be more comfortable if they took their own decision when they are old enough.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've heard the same thing, but it's not always true, and it depends on the person.
I have one hole in one ear, three in the other. I have, at various times, gone years between wearing earrings in any of the various holes, and mine have never closed up or come close to it.
I know others who, without earrings, will have the hole closed up in a matter of a couple of months.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't have it done, because one day he might bang a French girl.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I don't put much stock in any arguments that depend on what a potential sexual partner might think. One would hope--and yes, I realize I'm going against the grain here--that a guy would only choose as a sexual partner a girl that already cares deeply about him, and thus wouldn't be shocked or horrified by such a trivial thing as whether or not he was circumcised. I've never known a girl to care one way or the other, but if I ever did get into that situation, I would be furious. Not with my parents for having had it done to me, but with myself for making the horrible miscalculation that this girl was actually worth my time.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:One would hope--and yes, I realize I'm going against the grain here--that a guy would only choose as a sexual partner a girl that already cares deeply about him, and thus wouldn't be shocked or horrified by such a trivial thing as whether or not he was circumcised. I've never known a girl to care one way or the other, but if I ever did get into that situation, I would be furious. Not with my parents for having had it done to me, but with myself for making the horrible miscalculation that this girl was actually worth my time.
Is it me or does this statement lack respect? French are not the only ones who mostly prefer not to circumcize their boys, you know... The rest of your post makes sense though. It's just that the whole "a girl could reject him because he's not circumcised" is as true as "a girl could reject him because he's circumcised". So it's a pretty silly reason to do it, IMHO.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Is it me or does this statement lack respect?
*Sigh* No actual disrepect was intended toward you or toward France in general. I just don't feel that the fact that a guy may or may not one day become intimately involved with someone from a culture where circumcision is not the usual thing should be a factor in the decision about whether or not to get it done.
I'm sorry if you thought my phrasing crude, but I was doing it deliberately in order to make a point.
Circumcision does not actually impair a man's ability to have sex, nor a woman's ability to enjoy it. So what does the fact that she's never seen one before have to do with anything? If she actually loves him, what difference would it make?
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:On the ladies side of the debate, I often see baby girls who have pierced ears. Way before the age of consent, with no health benefit or religious rationale. Are their parents baby mutilators?
I think it dilutes the term to use it that way. I've also come to think that it's counterproductive to use such loaded language in the context of discussing circumcision.
I definitely think that parents who get their babies' ears piereced are wrong to so so, though... just as I think parents who get their babies circumcised (when it isn't medically necessary) are wrong to do so.
quote:Come to think of it, I have yet to hear a man complain about being circumcised.
...
twinky has, maybe not complained, but wishes he hadn't, I believe.
Indeed, I'd rather I wasn't circumcised. As I said, I don't blame my parents for not knowing better, but that doesn't mean I don't wish they had known better.
quote:Don't have it done, because one day he might bang a French girl.
That's not what Anna said, Verily. A number of people in this thread have stated that they prefer circumcised penises because they're "the norm" and uncircumcised penises "look weird." That's hardly a valid reason to circumcise a boy, but either way it isn't true outside America. In Canada, for example, circumcised males are a small minority.
Added:
quote:Circumcision does not actually impair a man's ability to have sex, nor a woman's ability to enjoy it.
Neither of these things is certain, actually. Added 2: Ela's link back on page one is very comprehensive.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
The correct statement would be "one day he might bang a European girl."
I'm under the impression that it was mainly on continental europe were circumcision was uncommon.
But ya here's my two cents:
I do not know of any of the medical or technical details involved when it comes to circumsision, but I will give my opinion:
If you are of jewish or Muslim descent and tradition warrants it, circumsision for males isn't wrong and ultimately up to the parents.
However, generally for non jews/non muslims I find no point in circumsision since A) I think thats alot less pleasure nerves with circumsision.
B) I forget what B was...
While circumsised or not may not be a significant factor in sexual pleasure, I think that they're may be like a 5% difference maybe.
quote:I'm not a girl, but every girl I've talked to about this said the first time they saw an uncircumcised penis they thought it was weird (several of my female friends still haven't seen one).
The first time I saw a mature circumcised penis I thought it looked weird. You can't win.
While I am far from experienced in uncircumcised mature penises, I have seen plenty of uncircumcised infants and young children (in a third world country where they go naked). I actually think it looks better, at that age.
I am due to give birth to a son in two months. We have three children already, a boy and two girls. We circumcised our boy (first child) and I was grateful that I didn't have to deal with it with the next two children. Now that I have to deal with it again, I have been thinking about it and yes, there was that big ol' discussion on sakeriver.
You see, my concerns were not *just* that my son wouldn't look like his father, but he won't even look like his brother if he goes uncircumcised. That honestly concerned me a great deal. I think I have pretty much decided that it is not reason enough to circumcise this one. If I could go back in time, I would not have our firstborn circumcised. Why make a wrong decision a second time just because I made it the first time?
Because of the discussion and the ensuing research, I am much more confident about what to expect, what the foreskin really is, the costs and benefits, etc. Because of that, I was able to reach a decision I felt most comfortable with.
I find it amusing that we are so concerned about boys keeping clean. Female genitals are full of creases and messy discharges, and women just have to deal with that. I imagine FGM might help keep that area more sanitary, but is it worth it?
It makes me just a bit uncomfortable to know that we are perhaps the only nation, or one of the few (I am not sure--maybe someone who knows can clarify) that routinely circumcises *not* for religious reasons. The professionals are seriously reconsidering their past recommendations, perhaps the rest of us need to rethink as well.
We may be worried about our sons "fitting in", but as time goes by, less and less people in the US are circumcising their sons. What was "fitting in" in the past doesn't determine what is "fitting in" now. If the majority of Sneetches stop putting stars on their bellies, the ones without aren't going to feel like an ostracized minority.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:While circumsised or not may not be a significant factor in sexual pleasure, I think that they're may be like a 5% difference maybe.
How could you possibly come up with that figure? Or any kind of percentage for something like that?
Personally, I wish my parents hadn't had me circumcised, but it's waaaaaaaaaay low on the list of things I wish my parents had/hadn't done. As for sexual pleasure, in my experience there must be a thousand ways to make up the difference for whatever little was lost due to circumcision.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Will B: My non-expert opinion is that * elective cosmetic surgery on babies is not a great idea * if he wants it done, he can do it when he's older; but he can't un-do it
Then again, Renee Richards is Jewish, so that's not necessarily the case.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Two little boys are sharing a semiprivate hospital room in the pediatric surgical unit.
The first boy asks the second, "What are you here for?"
The second boy replies that he is having his tonsils out.
"Oh, that's not so bad -- I had that a couple of years ago. I had a sore throat, but I got to miss a week of school and have all the ice cream I wanted."
The second boy asks the first why he is in the hospital
"Circumcision."
"Uh oh. I had that done when I was eight days old, and I couldn't walk for a year."
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The cool thing about the United States is that with all these Christians circumsized, if anyone like the Nazis come around again it will be harder to tell the Jews a part.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: The cool thing about the United States is that with all these Christians circumsized, if anyone like the Nazis come around again it will be harder to tell the Jews a part.
posted
Now has anyone heard about lower rates of masterbation for circumcised boys? It came up and I'm wondering where it came from.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Absolutely. My experience with circumcised vs. uncircumcised men being about equal, I can say that, for me, it has never been an issue.
quote: It just hasn't come up.
That, on the other hand, would have been.
Ouch! I can't believe my word choice last night. That's terrible!
Well, I deserved it.
Also, to the person who wondered how I knew that all of my friends are circumcised... well, I meant my closer circle of friends. It's come up in conversation (about this very topic, no less; what to do with someone's baby), not to mention that some of them have gone on backpacking trips with me... it's not worth it to bring the extra weight of swimming trunks when you'll be swimming in absolute seclusion, so we do that naked. (gasp)
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find discussions about having children in general tend to bring up topics that would never be touched on otherwise. I guess this is no exception. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:So kq should change her mind on the sole basis of how many guys might see her son's penis in a locker room?
Um, yeah, like that's the best reason.
I didn't suggest that. I just wanted to bring it to her attention. Although it actually turned out I'd misunderstood her post.
She wasn't worried that her son might feel weird about being different, she was responding that his future wife might.
But either way, your sarcasm is unnecessary. Even though it's clear you get much enjoyment out of purposely misreading my posts and then jumping on me for them. Congrats to you for scoring another point.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Now has anyone heard about lower rates of masterbation for circumcised boys? It came up and I'm wondering where it came from.
... Looks at the post... *laughs histerically* I'm sorry but I think I just disproved that theory, rofl.
IP: Logged |
posted
"*laughs histerically* I'm sorry but I think I just disproved that theory, rofl."
*laughs hysterically as well*
About the argument that you shouldn't do it because he should make the decision on his own, first of all it would take alot of guts to have a voluntary circumcision when your old enough to decide you want one. Guts that I think most guys don't have. So if you're going to wait until he's old enough to make the decision for himself, that's about the same as making sure he'll never get one. I was glad I was circumcised, but I don't think I'd go through with it now if I wanted one.
Second, I think the parents have a right to give a circumcision, if that's what the parents want, without having the kid's consent. How many of you think it's wrong to teach your kids about your religion when they're young? That would be basically the same as "forcing" your religion on the kid, since most of the time when kids are raised to be observant, they'll usually stay like that. And what if your child never wanted to be born? What if, as soon as he's old enough to make the decision for himself, that he wishes he was never born? That wasn't fair that you made that decision for him before he could decide for himself. Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I remember reading a Dave Barry article about this awhile back, so I looked it up: NORM (The National Organization of Restoring Men) is a group devoted to the restoration and recovery of the foreskin on circumcised males. So, apparently it can be done. I didn't look very far into the website, so I don't know the details of every procedure or the success rate, but there seem to be quite a few nonsurgical methods in use. Seems a lot less traumatic to reverse a circumcision during adulthood than to undergo one, IMO.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The restoration can never be complete, in my understanding. It just stretches what is left over--which sounds pretty unpleasant. :/ Apparently it returns sensitivity to the surface of the glans by providing the intended cover and protection, but in several other ways just isn't the same.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Unless you plan on your sons being home schooled and never visiting a gym, you might reconsider.
Since I live in an area where a majority of infants are uncircumcised, I think it's odds-on it won't be a problem for my sons. And even if we move to a place where everyone is circumcised, I hope I'll have taught them a healthy enough body image that they won't care too much.
quote:On the ladies side of the debate, I often see baby girls who have pierced ears. Way before the age of consent, with no health benefit or religious rationale. Are their parents baby mutilators?
First of all, I'm not one of the ones who goes so far as to scream "mutilation". But I don't believe in piercing ears in infants, either. Both my husband and I were a little horrified when my sister- and brother-in-law did it to our niece (but we kept our opinions to ourselves.) In my family, growing up, the rule was "when you're 8, if you want, you can decide to have your ears pierced" (my mom having grown up Baptist and 8 being the "age of accountability", the age of being able to make your own decisions and be accountable for them and the consequences.) My husband and I agree that that's a good rule, and we'll follow it with our daughters as well (since as Mormons we also hold 8 as the age of accountability.) I suppose if, after our sons are older, they complain about being uncircumcised, we'll ask them if they want to be circumcised and let them make the choice, much as it's going to be much more traumatic at that age, they should be able to choose.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
At least when a mature male is circumcised the foreskin doesn't have to be ripped off of the glans. >.< By then, they've separated.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is a Sex in the City episode in the first season where Carrie dates a man who is uncut. She seems a bit put off. I watched it with a guy who was currently dating an uncut guy who said that he had a similar reaction to Carrie's. Not that it should make any difference, but from my experience it does seem like many American women prefer circumcised men. That said, I am sure that even though women each have their own preference it should not really matter too much.
This thread has been making me think about what I would choose for my hypothetical son. I think if I end up marrying a man that wishes to do it for religious reasons, I would not object. I think if my husband had any strong preference I would go with that because he knows what it is like to have a penis and I don't. I am not sure what I would do if it were left up to me.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am an American woman and have had experience with both (about equal). It never occured to me to be "put off" either way.
If I ever have a son I would likely not have him circumcised unless his father had a firm opinion to the contrary.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd probably go with whatever my wife wanted on this; I can't really see an advantage to either.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I wouldn't worry for a moment about it. No offense to Avadaru and erosomniac, but I think their experience is very very rare. I've never heard of anybody being humiliated because of this particular decision that their parents made anyway. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but around here (PacNW) I've never heard of anybody caring either way.
The idea that circumcision is the norm is prolific throughout national popular media.
And I'm really curious now as to the differentiation of this standard depending on where you live. I had the standard locker room experience in middle/high school (meaning I saw a bunch of naked guys on a semi-regular basis), and I have yet, to this day, to see an uncircumcised penis except in pictures. Keep in mind that my high school had roughly 1800 students, half of which (or thereabouts) were male.
This question intrigued me so much that two of my friends and I went through as much free online porn as we could to see if we could discover anything.
We viewed 500 heterosexual pornographic websites and did not see a single uncircumcised penis.
To me, this says at least one of the following:
1) Circumcision is a social standard. 2) There is a hygenic/aesthetic benefit to circumcision.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: This question intrigued me so much that two of my friends and I went through as much free online porn as we could to see if we could discover anything.
posted
Oddly enough...yes, in the name of research.
Trust me, going through porn to look at penises wasn't something we wanted to linger on. We'd do a quick scan, add a tally to the circumcised list, and move on.
Which isn't to say that all of the websites aren't in IE's history o_O.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
That reminds me. Here at work there's a guy who keeps some 'questionable' material on his laptop. I knew about it and knew I had to do something about it. So I decided to replace his pictures of beautiful women in various stages of undress with pictures of guys in speedos. Then, when he had his buddies around his computer and decided to show them a "hot chick", well, he'd have some 'splainin' to do.
Google-imageing 'men speedo' was a tad disturbing. Seeing a guy in a speedo was one thing. See him pose and try to be provactive was another. Seeing...well lets just say, not all the guys were wearing speedos, nor are all the sites ones for selling men's swimwear. Got about 20 pictures (clothed) in 5 minutes and decided I just did not want to see anymore. I replace what was there and that was it.
Of course, he never looked in that folder, so it was all for nothing. I had to tell him about it a few weeks later, at which point he laughed.
Oh well. But your "research" reminded me of that.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wouldn't say anytime most people do something there's a benefit to it, but it probably means that at least some of them do it for a good reason (not religion).
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
ersomniac, how old are you? And where do you live? Both make a difference. Right now, a majority of boys born in my part of the country are uncircumcised. That doesn't mean the majority of my parents' generation are-- most of them were circumcised. But by my brother's birth in 1986, a majority of boys born in the hospital where he was born were not being circumcised.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:ersomniac, how old are you? And where do you live? Both make a difference. Right now, a majority of boys born in my part of the country are uncircumcised. That doesn't mean the majority of my parents' generation are-- most of them were circumcised. But by my brother's birth in 1986, a majority of boys born in the hospital where he was born were not being circumcised.
I'm 21 - born in 1984. That'd put me in the same generation as your brother, I think. I grew up (and my example referenced my time) in Hawaii - more specifically, on Oahu. I also lived a year in upstate New York (Rochester) and have lived for the past three years in Seattle.
Anyone in the Seattle area want to show me an uncircumcised penis?
(I'm kidding again - really, I promise).
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, at the point you were born, the area where I live was far from the norm for the country (although in line with much of SoCal.)
I think the PacNorthwest is now leaning more and more toward less circumcision in most areas, though.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
(Although I'm willing to bet that plenty of boys born in Seattle were uncircumcised, even back then, it's hard to find stats for that far back.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And good point, Tante.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
