quote:He also plays guitar in his sleep. That one is very, very amusing.
You do realize that you are now morally obligated to break the bonds of filial piety and film this, right?
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Malmsteen is fantastic, but I (like most people, I think...?) tend to judge amateur work by a different standard than, you know, guitar legends.
That's true. I just didn't think the original video was all that special. I think that people who thought it was the bee's knees could stand to listen to some Malmsteen. [Added: Also, I felt it was a very passionless performance. That was a turn-off.]
The stuff that you and others have posted in the thread since then was great, though. Particularly that ukelele one, that was exquisite. [Added: And you could tell that he was really getting into it and could feel the music. I'm not too big on the Beatles, but that really was something.]
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quote:That's true. I just didn't think the original video was all that special. I think that people who thought it was the bee's knees could stand to listen to some Malmsteen. [Added: Also, I felt it was a very passionless performance. That was a turn-off.]
It was pretty passionless, but I think that was the goal: to make playing what he played seem casual. To some that's going to make it seem even cooler, although I am not one of "some."
quote:The stuff that you and others have posted in the thread since then was great, though. Particularly that ukelele one, that was exquisite. [Added: And you could tell that he was really getting into it and could feel the music. I'm not too big on the Beatles, but that really was something.]
Every time I see Jake live, I remember why I like him so much: not just because of his fretwork, but because so much of the energy and raw passion he has for playing his music translates both audibly and visually. It really, really comes through in Ehime Maru, the song he wrote in commemoration of the sinking of the ship of the same name.
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Well, I must say I've been enjoying all the links -- thanks, everyone! (and especially grateful for the recently upgraded DSL connection that enables me to watch these . . .)
I also really enjoyed listening to the mandolinist's rendition of Summertime (from the website link kq gave)--can't remember the guy's name and am too lazy to go back to page one to look.
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quote:You do realize that you are now morally obligated to break the bonds of filial piety and film this, right?
Oh, I totally would if I ever happened to have a video camera (which neither he nor I own) while he was doing it...
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"Obviously none of you have ever heard of Yngwie Malmsteen."
Steve Vai owns Malmsteen And Joe Satriani is pretty good too My favorite guitarist might be John Petrucci, though. He's great.
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quote:Originally posted by twinky: Obviously none of you have ever heard of Yngwie Malmsteen. Have a listen to either Trilogy Suite Opus (one piece), or Concerto Suite for Electric Guitar and Orchestra in E Flat Minor (an album).
Well, bless you for mentioning him, Twink. I was scrolling though to see if anyone had remembered those magic fingers . . .
KQ - I am waiting anxiously for that video. Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: I just found this on Google.
That guy doesn't seem to be quite as good as the others, since his notes don't flow well into each other. Just my opinion, though.
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I was playing on YouTube and found the mandolin video again. Since it's apparently been removed from the website (why waste your bandwidth when you can post on YouTube?) they moved it to YouTube, apparently.
And it's always worth re-watching Evan Marshall play the William Tell.
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You know, a song I would love to see played on Guitar is Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca from Piano Sanata in A.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: To me, knowing that there are others who are great out there only makes the world an even better place. I don't know who this guy is, but I'm impressed that he did this. Great musicianship doesn't mean never making an error, either.
Heck, I just think this guy has attained a skill level that is uncommon. And I applaud him for taking the time and having the patience to do it.
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I think one of the problems with the guitar-via-youtube phenomenon is that it really fetishizes certian aspects of guitar playing and players more than any other medium, notwithstanding "hair bands."
oooh look, the guy is playing guitar with a spoon, with his buttcheeks, at the top of a space needle, and he's only 2 years old, and on and on.
Music is about artistic accomplishment, communication, and ideas. I don't think it should be a sport. Just me, not appreciating the "guitar hero" generation.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I think one of the problems with the guitar-via-youtube phenomenon is that it really fetishizes certian aspects of guitar playing and players more than any other medium, notwithstanding "hair bands."
oooh look, the guy is playing guitar with a spoon, with his buttcheeks, at the top of a space needle, and he's only 2 years old, and on and on.
Music is about artistic accomplishment, communication, and ideas. I don't think it should be a sport. Just me, not appreciating the "guitar hero" generation.
At least you don't have middle school students coming up to you asking to audition for the guitar spot in your jazz band, convinced they can play guitar because of their experience with Guitar Hero....
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"teve Vai owns Malmsteen And Joe Satriani is pretty good too My favorite guitarist might be John Petrucci, though. He's great."
THose four all have different styles. I'm not sure how you compare the different styles, and say "This one is better then that one."
Malmsteen has VERY classical inspiration, Satriani plays straight ahead rock, and Vai is very... I call it funkadelic, but thats not really right. They go for different sounds, and all three get their sound superbly.
Malmsteen is a freak of nature, though. I'm not sure anyone else can play as fast as he does.
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Well, there is another reason people put things on youtube, I am afraid to say. It is easier to share things with family and friends. This is why we do it, anyway. I am not trying to make my son into some sort of fetish. The child playing Canon in D is a pure musican. You can see it on his face. I recognize that look. Music flows through some people, whether they are making it up or learning it from a sheet. He is just darned good.
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Paul, I'm afraid I've heard far too many lists of far too many different names of people who are sworn to be unlike anyome else- with guitar I care less and less all the time.
Elizabeth- The abstractions of "pure musicianship" are a little hard to swallow when the kid is playing a by the numbers rendition of a highly, highly overrated movement from a classical suite. The "look" doesn't interest me, at all. And what he's playing is not inventive, it's boring. That's my opinion, but I would wager without really knowing that I have been to more concerts than you have, and have met more musicians. That doesn't make me better, but I think it gives me a fair amount of experience recognizing talent vs. hard work, vs both together.
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Really, Orincoro. Well, I will just leave this discussion to you, then! I am sure you have been to many more concerts than I have, and I would love to hear about all the musicians you know!
Nonetheless, I will adhere to me own very immature and ignorant feeling that this child has "it."
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: . . . I would wager without really knowing that I have been to more concerts than you have, and have met more musicians.
Ooh! Ooh! Can I take that bet?!
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Like I set I don't know, and I'm not putting anything up.
Elizabeth, please understand that while I realize it's pretty dumb to say: "I know more than you so shut up," I do think, judging from your opinion in this case, that I do. This doesn't mean shut up, but I guess I could pick a better way of arguing my position. I know I could, but I'm actually just being lazy.
Dag, I go to about three concerts a week and have done for over 3 years. So, I don't see why I am almost certain to lose.
Icky, I don't extend the wager to you, but I'd love to hear your opinion.
Meh, everybody: I apologize for my childishness, but threads and subjects like this remind me of what a selfish knowiatall jerk I like to be when it comes to certain things I don't think everyone's opinion is totally valid all the time, including my own.
"Nonetheless, I will adhere to me own very immature and ignorant feeling that this child has "it.""
quote:Dag, I go to about three concerts a week and have done for over 3 years. So, I don't see why I am almost certain to lose.
Three whole years of that? Wow.
I'll change "almost certain to lose" to "very likely to lose" then.
quote:Elizabeth, please understand that while I realize it's pretty dumb to say: "I know more than you so shut up," I do think, judging from your opinion in this case, that I do.
Wow. An appeal to authority based on circular logic. That's talented fallacyin'!
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Ok Dag, I don't care. I'm 23 years old, yesterday in fact, and I'm pretty proud of what I've done with my life so far. So you can go suck on it.
Matt: I love that video, if it's the one about Pachelbell chasing the comedian through his life.
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quote:Ok Dag, I don't care. I'm 23 years old, yesterday in fact, and I'm pretty proud of what I've done with my life so far. So you can go suck on it.
That's rich. I haven't said anything to denigrate what you've done with your life. That's your game, remember.
You're being really rude to and about a friend of mine, and a large part of your rudeness is based on ignorance of to whom you are talking. She's being nice about it, but I'm not in a mood to let it go quietly.
If you want to disagree about what's good music or not, do so without making unsupportable commentary about others' qualifications to do so.
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Having been a professional musician for several years, and with a degree in music performance, I'd have to say, particularly with an instrument like guitar, unless you play the damn thing yourself, you have no real idea of the relative difficulty of different pieces. IME, that's very true even on percussion instruments and the piano, and I have extensive experience with both, and the guitar uses much smaller movements (which makes it much less easy to judge a player's ability and also harder to judge the difficulty level of a piece that's being played in front of you). IOW, if you don't play guitar, you're in no position to judge a player's ability level. Point blank.
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The Canon in D guy, or Aidan? Thanks if the latter!
Orincoro, I am not quite twice your age, but pretty close. I grew up in the 70's, and we saw a lot of music. I am also pretty close to a hippy, though more of a conservative one.
I am addicted to live music. My son is addicted to playing live music, after listening to so many shows. We go to a lot of music festivals. We have developed friendships with many musicians, and Aidan has been blessed with some wonderful opportunities.
What I want to know is, can this boy, Sungha, improvise? If he can, if he can develop that, he will be unstoppable.
My son can play with any group at the drop of a hat. He can also play well technically, but his true gift is as an improvisational artist. If he could learn to play those finger-pickin riffs, he will also be unstoppable.
I would give my eye teeth to have them play together some day.
(sorry for the ramble)
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Having been a professional musician for several years, and with a degree in music performance, I'd have to say, particularly with an instrument like guitar, unless you play the damn thing yourself, you have no real idea of the relative difficulty of different pieces. IME, that's very true even on percussion instruments and the piano, and I have extensive experience with both, and the guitar uses much smaller movements (which makes it much less easy to judge a player's ability and also harder to judge the difficulty level of a piece that's being played in front of you). IOW, if you don't play guitar, you're in no position to judge a player's ability level. Point blank.
I do play classical guitar, though I think you're wrong anyway. That musicianship and ability to be musical is correlated to specific experience is not correct, I think. Technical elements of playing are hard, but not impossible for a player of another instrument to understand. If what you say is true, then composers would have insurmountable difficulties in writing for any instrument they do not play. There are difficulties, as I have discovered myself many times, but these problems are not crippling, and they do not diminish our abilities to judge other people's skill level.
Besides technical skill is beside my point- I don't think his playing is very good. It could be twice as fast, and not alter my opinion, that ability to do something technical would not improve the musical experience necessarily. Though accomplishing technical feats is a means to expression, it is far from an end, and is for many many players, a real crutch.
Edit: And example that pops to mind is Pat Methany, who is very technically accomplished, but hasn't been involved in interesting music for quite some time. Still, I did see him in concert here last year and it was enjoyable to a point- partly because Brad Meldaugh (piano) played with him.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: [QUOTE] You're being really rude to and about a friend of mine, and a large part of your rudeness is based on ignorance of to whom you are talking. She's being nice about it, but I'm not in a mood to let it go quietly.
If you want to disagree about what's good music or not, do so without making unsupportable commentary about others' qualifications to do so.
I am not ignorant of whom I am addressing. I am addressing the person who wrote what I am responding to. I disagree with their opinions, and their opinions lead me to believe that they are less informed than I am.
I don't have an advocate arguing in my favor here, and if I did, I certainly wouldn't want it to be someone like you, who has no history of being able to relate to me.
So as I said before, I especially don't care what you think, especially since you contribute little more than to tell me when I already know I'm being a dick.
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quote:I am not ignorant of whom I am addressing. I am addressing the person who wrote what I am responding to. I disagree with their opinions, and their opinions lead me to believe that they are less informed than I am.
You were ignorant of significant facts that render your factual assertion very likely wrong.
quote:So as I said before, I especially don't care what you think, especially since you contribute little more than to tell me when I already know I'm being a dick.
Awareness is the first step toward recovery.
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"...composers would have insurmountable difficulties in writing for any instrument they do not play."
Beethoven's music is still some of the hardest stuff on orchestral excerpt lists. I think I paraphrase him when he said "What do I care for your damned fiddle?" when a player complained about the difficulty of a part. I think he neither knew nor cared. It's still good (by most people's estimation) music. It does not happen to fit the instrument well. However, I, not being a (for instance) orchestral bassist, have no idea how much harder the bass part is from the Scherzo in his first symphony than from any other similar-sounding passage. I'd say the same is true for almost any instrument with a fingerboard, fretted or not, including guitar. My buddy Dan got his degree in classical guitar, and likes to play me Eric Johnson licks, and talk about how much harder they are than other players' licks. I simply have to take his word for it. He plays other fast stuff that sounds (and looks) to be about the same difficulty.
I guess what I'm saying is, no way does a non-guitarist have the ability to judge the difficulty level of a piece by watching someone play it. IMHO.
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The canon in D guy I found boring, actually. I can't figure out how he made the sounds he made-- but it's magic I don't really find interesting.
Aidan, however, seems very talented, and I enjoyed listening to him play.
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Orincoro -- why continue a behavior you think of so negatively?
Technical prowess is something that can be appreciated on many levels, by the way, as can emotional playing. Of the two, I think technical prowess is more easily achieved and recognizable by others -- like the ability to play the Minute Waltz in 39 seconds -- we could measure it and deduct for errors.
When people educated in technique start talking about the "soul" or emotion that a player puts into their performance, then I think they start to sound a lot like the rest of us -- using vaguely defined terms to express something that is genuinely indefinable and often more a matter of personal taste than anything concrete.
I've nearly been brought to tears by a young girl singing Amazing Grace. I've had shivers run down my spine watching an arthritic semi-retired dancer move in subtle ways that conveyed 10x what their well-trained and physically fit troupe members were doing. I seen legends phone in a cynical performance and walk off stage in anger.
And I've been around people who had the exact opposite reaction to many of the things I loved and hated.
It's a good thing too, or we'd all be stuck listening to the same darned things that "everybody likes" and all music would be dictated by the popular taste.
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The canon in D guy I found boring, actually. I can't figure out how he made the sounds he made-- but it's magic I don't really find interesting.
Aidan, however, seems very talented, and I enjoyed listening to him play.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Awareness is the first step toward recovery.
Also the easiest.
Bob, I think your comments are very astute. I do think however that the arthritic dancer you mentioned has been well trained in what really matters. As you say, the conveyance of so much meaning in such an economical way is something very powerful, and recognizing it is a moving experience. I do think that we can see and understand a great deal of that element of performance, and the same eement in composition, and that it isn't totally undefinable. I don't want to say "open to interpretation," because that's a bit of a weak image for me. Maybe "encouraging of" or "receptive to" insight, or "complicating."
As anyone who has followed my music stuff here, which is maybe one of you, you can see that for all people the mobile, applicable elements of music or composing are defined differently. A perfunctory gesture for me is wrung out by a composer with a different purpose. Other people appreciate what I do but would have little reason or ability to things the same way. I, in turn, am moved by things I don't try to repeat. Still, I think trying to recognize those qualities and apply them to our thinking makes us better at our own art. In this particular case with Pachelbell, I have found all of the best elements of his music to be thoroughly absorbed across the musical spectrum, and I don't find his original work to be quite as genuine in its presentation today. The weight of the history with that piece is as much a liability for it as an advantage. I think alot of musicians roll their eyes at its continued domination of the popular ear because they know that broader horizons present themselves in the more extended view of the repertoire.
Pachelbell, even in his day, wrote derivative, by the numbers music. It presents great avenues for learning and understanding very solidly constructed stylistic aspects of Baroque music, but I personally feel that the artistic elements of a piece, the really cool stuff, the challenging stuff, is lacking in it. I think there's a very good reason so many arrangements and interpretations exist, and that is because it is safe, easy, and such a solid part of the repertoire and the common ear, that few seriously question it when it is presented in almost any form. We like ice-cream. We like ice-cream so much that we will eat it in thousands of flavors. A diet of large amounts of ice-cream though, even if the flavors are varied, is quite a bit more sugar than we need.
I will say too that given the pervasive use of the theme from that piece, and in the style in which it is presented by this kid, encourages people to simply connect with all the experiences they have already had with both the original, and all of the work influenced by it. It's no different, to me, from watching that horrible Leonardo Dicapprio rendition of Romeo and Juliette. Oh look, isn't it amazing how Shakespeare even had a direct influence on gangster films from the 20th century! Let's construct an unoriginal mashup of the two genres with hilariously self-serious and concomitantly uninformed and ridiculous performances that do justice to the best of neither genre!
quote:As anyone who has followed my music stuff here, which is maybe one of you
Hey Lloyd. How was your big 23?
On the current subject, I've learned to tone down my "elitism" that comes from having graduated with a music degree. I generally let people like what they like--and if they're curious, I let them know how much deeper it can go. I will say in Lloyd's defense that most music majors attend at least 30 concerts a semester for 4 years, not including outside performances (and at our school, not including concerts you perform in, even for just 1 piece--I hated that rule). In that time, we see a wider spectrum of different genres in Eastern, Western, Classical and contemporary music than most people see in their entire lives. Aside from live music, the hours of poring over recordings and scores (that only some music majors do) adds a depth of knowledge and perspective that is hard for a lot of people to understand--and with Lloyd's particular tone--it's easy to say "whatever smartypants" and dismiss him outright.
I don't know if I've helped at all, Lloyd But I agree with most of his points. Except I did like Baz Luhrman's R&J Radiohead's "Talk Show Host" is one of my faaavorite songs.
And--to add my own perspective--I don't think I'm capable of enjoying any version of Canon in D ever again. The "rockified" version of it in the youtube video reminded me of a mountain dew commercial. I imagined 15-year olds moshing as Sum 41 crashed his bedroom and started singing about their latest summer crush, and they're all riding skateboards. So--regardless of how technically impressive it is (on a scale of 1-10, it's generously a 6), it's basically a lot of effort wasted, in my opinion.
Also, on the subject of improvisation, I've unfortunately become a bit jaded. Once you learn the "structure" of improvisation (knowing your chord-scale-mode relationships), it becomes quite easy (no, really) to learn. It's treated mystically because it's so rarely taught--but it really is just another skill that can easily be taught. In the video, for example, all of his "improvised" embellishments were highly idiomatic (easy), and not very creative--by the book, in fact, especially given the underlying structure of Canon in D. I would claim that it's impossible to see whether this kid "has it" as a musician based on his selection and style--they don't allow him to show any real finesse or depth!
The kid playing blues guitar is cool, but really, anyone who's learned a blues instrument knows that "the blues" are the most accessible and easily attained skills to learn. I become extremely picky about where the "great" blues stuff is, because "average" is everywhere. For the record, considering the kid's age, he's playing above-average blues, for sure.
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Thanks TD, I should keep a tally of the times you've told me that over the years.
Thanks LW as well. Unfortunate that we've never played together. Certianly the next time I'm in town we should do more than go to a museum after I've had 4 hours of sleep. I think I probably made a rather boring impression. You were the last person I saw in the US aside from my sister though, so I think that makes it more memorable at least for me.
I also had a kind of argument with my composition teacher about a research project I'm doing. It isn't his mentorship actually, but he was right to call me out on doing a rather lackluster job on my abstract last week, so I think I've been feeling nervy and defensive for a few days. It's funny, I forget sometimes that the fact that a professor is spending two plus hours a week with me on my projects is an indication that he doesn't think I'm stupid, but he criticizes me on my shoddy work in another area and I'm totally defensive about it.
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quote:The kid playing blues guitar is cool, but really, anyone who's learned a blues instrument knows that "the blues" are the most accessible and easily attained skills to learn. I become extremely picky about where the "great" blues stuff is, because "average" is everywhere.
The technical aspect of the blues is one of the most accessible and easily attained skills, for sure. The soul-- THAT is something you either have to be born with, or suffer for.
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Orincoro and Launchywiggin, I'm not sure you both realize that "the kid playing the blues guitar" that Elizabeth posted is her son, Aidan, not some random kid she found on YouTube.
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What's the measure of "Soul", though? The look on their face while they're playing? I wish I could agree with you, but I've heard way too many perfectly "manufactured" blues solos to be able to. All it takes is the ability to listen to a recording and have the patience to learn it. A few hours at most for an average guitarist (or in my case, pianist).
I play a damn good blues solo, but it comes from a knowledge of blues scales, common "licks", and listening to recordings, not from suffering or innate talent (I also highly contest that anyone is "born with" anything but a capacity to LEARN). It doesn't take some magic wand that touches some and not others--just hard work). So while it's a nice thought to think that the best blues comes from the soul, I've found that this isn't necessarily true.
Edited to Add: I had no idea about the kid in the blues video being Elizabeth's son. Nobody has said anything till now, and I hope I haven't said anything personally offensive--I probably would have been more tactful if I'd known sooner (and I don't think I should have been expected to know), but thanks for letting me know anyway, EIJay.
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[Added: Also, I felt it was a very passionless performance. That was a turn-off.]![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And Joe Satriani is pretty good too ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
Hey Lloyd. How was your big 23? ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Radiohead's "Talk Show Host" is one of my faaavorite songs. 
